If GSW Sucks This Year...Do We Re-Evaluate Peak Russ Versus Peak Steph?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Warriors were still thought of as a joke up until 2013, when Steph finally had a healthy year. Wonder why that is?

Again, Klay also was a big factor as he became a starter. They also had a rookie Dray in 2013.

This seems classic name-dropping form of strawman, where you name-drop a sometime star player without at all acknowledging what type of player he is in the year in question.
Seriously, how is rookie Dray relevant at all wrt 2013? He was 8th on the roster in total minutes played (13.4 mpg) with a 7.1 PER, -3.1 BPM, -1.4 RAPM that year.

It's perhaps not quite as bad as if I'd suggested Robert Parish was relevant to the success of the '97 Bulls, but it's likely worse than if I were to suggest Shaquille O'Neal was instrumental to the success of the '11 Celtics.

And you can't hide behind any sort of "well, I said it was rookie Dray" explanation. Because if we're in agreement that he was basically just a scrub at this point in his career, then I'd ask again: how is he relevant? Why bring him up at all?

1) Dray is a career 15.3 PER player. Itf we're using that stat as a litmus test, then he's never been anything but a marginal NBA player his whole career. But that wasn't my point anyway

2) I brought up Dray in the context of the big 3 coming to place in 2013. The first post in what you're quoting, I point out that Dray replaces Lee in 2014.

3) The obivous reason GS did better in 2013 again, is because Curry played 45 more games, and Klay became a quality starter.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Warriors were still thought of as a joke up until 2013, when Steph finally had a healthy year. Wonder why that is?

Again, Klay also was a big factor as he became a starter. They also had a rookie Dray in 2013.

So Klay went from 13 ppg on 55% TS to a 17 ppg scorer on 53% TS while Draymond was a rookie playing 13 minutes a game. This is what accounted for the Warriors going from 23 wins and last quartile in SRS to the second round in the playoffs and challenging the WCF champs in just a year?

"2012 Warriors had Curry hurt for most of the seaosn, and Klay was a bench player. They get better in 2013 becuase Curry is healthy and Klay starts adding 17 ppg"

GS was a 47 win team in 2013. I mean hey cool they pushed the Spurs to 6 games, they were still a 1.31 SRS squad that season. Never mind Curry was healthy, or Klay got starter minutes, or they replaced Wright for Barnes. Peak Russ led a weaker squad to 47 wins in 2017.

[cpower]

Again, Klay also was a big factor as he became a starter. They also had a rookie Dray in 2013.

So Klay went from 13 ppg on 55% TS to a 17 ppg scorer on 53% TS while Draymond was a rookie playing 13 minutes a game. This is what accounted for the Warriors going from 23 wins and last quartile in SRS to the second round in the playoffs and challenging the WCF champs in just a year?

"2012 Warriors had Curry hurt for most of the seaosn, and Klay was a bench player. They get better in 2013 becuase Curry is healthy and Klay starts adding 17 ppg"

GS was a 47 win team in 2013. I mean hey cool they pushed the Spurs to 6 games, they were still a 1.31 SRS squad that season. Never mind Curry was healthy, or Klay got starter minutes, or they replaced Wright for Barnes. Peak Russ led a weaker squad to 47 wins in 2017.

Klay was not even good in 2013, 12.7 PER on 53%TS, I don't know why you did not mention Peak Russ had star Oladipo on his team..very cherry picking

[An Unbiased Fan]

So Klay went from 13 ppg on 55% TS to a 17 ppg scorer on 53% TS while Draymond was a rookie playing 13 minutes a game. This is what accounted for the Warriors going from 23 wins and last quartile in SRS to the second round in the playoffs and challenging the WCF champs in just a year?

"2012 Warriors had Curry hurt for most of the seaosn, and Klay was a bench player. They get better in 2013 becuase Curry is healthy and Klay starts adding 17 ppg"

GS was a 47 win team in 2013. I mean hey cool they pushed the Spurs to 6 games, they were still a 1.31 SRS squad that season. Never mind Curry was healthy, or Klay got starter minutes, or they replaced Wright for Barnes. Peak Russ led a weaker squad to 47 wins in 2017.

Klay was not even good in 2013, 12.7 PER on 53%TS, I don't know why you did not mention Peak Russ had star Oladipo on his team..very cherry picking

2013 Klay > 2017 Oladipo. And Curry had David Lee too.

[WarriorGM]

"2012 Warriors had Curry hurt for most of the seaosn, and Klay was a bench player. They get better in 2013 becuase Curry is healthy and Klay starts adding 17 ppg"

GS was a 47 win team in 2013. I mean hey cool they pushed the Spurs to 6 games, they were still a 1.31 SRS squad that season. Never mind Curry was healthy, or Klay got starter minutes, or they replaced Wright for Barnes. Peak Russ led a weaker squad to 47 wins in 2017.

Klay was not even good in 2013, 12.7 PER on 53%TS, I don't know why you did not mention Peak Russ had star Oladipo on his team..very cherry picking

2013 Klay > 2017 Oladipo. And Curry had David Lee too.

Oladipo in OKC produced about the same level as Klay. But he had a better year before going to OKC and he had a better year after OKC. As I recall one of the knocks on Westbrook afterward was that all the teammates that left OKC seemed to produce more the year after.

David Lee got injured in a loss in Game 1 of the 2013 first round of the playoffs too so he wasn't any help in that series.

[picko]

Players thrive in different situations and systems. Westbrook wouldn't be as successful in the Warriors system and Curry likewise in a system that needs him to be ball dominant.

All it really means is that Curry isn't better in all circumstances. Likewise Westbrook. But then we already knew that.

Great answer!

Its beyond me how people think that playing in one system, with a particular set of teammates, translates to all situations. Not just referencing Steph and WB, but few players were able to be put in a system and surrounded by teammates that complement their skill set.

Its rare.

I think Magic, Jordan, Russell, Steph, Nash, and Harden are a select few that have had that opportunity......

Unfortunately fans become highly defensive at the mere suggestion. In this case, that there could ever be a situation where having Westbrook is preferable to having Curry. So it becomes an infantile binary debate that strips context and nuance from the discussion.

Westbrook is simply more likely to get a really bad team to the playoffs. In 2016-17 he was one of only two OKC players with a positive BPM. They won 47 games.

Some posters are throwing around 2012-13 and 2013-14 as evidence that Curry can do the same. In 2012-13, Curry was one of four players with a positive BPM. In 2013-14, he was one of six players with a positive BPM. A very different level of talent compared with the team that Westbrook had.

Westbrook is very well designed to be a high usage player. Him against the world is the role that he was born to play. Fitting in neatly with other stars is something that he struggles with. Curry has never been that guy. He fits wonderfully with good talent.

But Curry isn't a high usage guy. In 2012-13 and 2013-14, he had a usage rate of 26.4% and 28.3%, respectively. This season the Warriors need Curry to be a super high usage guy. Westbrook or Harden-esque. That was their only pathway to success. Curry's usage through four games is almost identical to the three seasons he played with Durant. Hogging the ball, even when necessary for success, is simply not in his nature.

And it is crazy that people will view this as some personal attack on Curry. It really isn't. It is just an acknowledgement that certainly players are better suited to thriving under certain scenarios or situation. There are scenarios where Westbrook will lead to more wins than Curry. And vice versa.

A good way to think about it is this: if someone said that Blake Griffin was a better PF than Curry, would anyone argue otherwise? Probably not. It is a different role, so it is understandable that Curry isn't the best at playing that role. The high-usage point guard who controls everything is also a different role and it is understandable that Curry isn't the best at playing that role.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Klay was not even good in 2013, 12.7 PER on 53%TS, I don't know why you did not mention Peak Russ had star Oladipo on his team..very cherry picking

2013 Klay > 2017 Oladipo. And Curry had David Lee too.

Oladipo in OKC produced about the same level as Klay. But he had a better year before going to OKC and he had a better year after OKC. As I recall one of the knocks on Westbrook afterward was that all the teammates that left OKC seemed to produce more the year after.

David Lee got injured in a loss in Game 1 of the 2013 first round of the playoffs too so he wasn't any help in that series.

Oladipo's numbers were basically the same from 2016 & 2017. Only difference is assists, and that's because Russ was handling the ball alot.

As for David Lee, he was there during the regular season when GS won 47 games. Curry was healthy and had a better roster around him, which is why they went up to 47 wins in 2013. 2017 Russ took a weaker roster to 47 wins.

[WarriorGM]

2013 Klay > 2017 Oladipo. And Curry had David Lee too.

Oladipo in OKC produced about the same level as Klay. But he had a better year before going to OKC and he had a better year after OKC. As I recall one of the knocks on Westbrook afterward was that all the teammates that left OKC seemed to produce more the year after.

David Lee got injured in a loss in Game 1 of the 2013 first round of the playoffs too so he wasn't any help in that series.

Oladipo's numbers were basically the same from 2016 & 2017. Only difference is assists, and that's because Russ was handling the ball alot.

As for David Lee, he was there during the regular season when GS won 47 games. Curry was healthy and had a better roster around him, which is why they went up to 47 wins in 2013. 2017 Russ took a weaker roster to 47 wins.

Sorry I cannot accept this weaker roster argument because I keep hearing this Russell had a weaker roster palaver in comparison to Harden and now Curry when it comes to 2017. That's after-the-fact mumbo jumbo. Before the start of the season the Thunder roster was considered stronger than Harden's Rockets roster.

Pre-season odds for 2017 Thunder: +6000
Pre-season odds for 2017 Rockets: +16000
Pre-season odds for 2013 Warriors: +15000

[Baski]

Nah Curry has been clearly better since 2015. What needs to be reevaluated is the ludicrous claims that he was being held back from winning MVPs by Durant or that him dominating the ball would actually make him look better than he did with Durant. Also the absurd extrapolations of the effects of his gravity.

[Clyde Frazier]

Each season exists on its own. This is such bizarre thinking.

[freethedevil]

Players thrive in different situations and systems. Westbrook wouldn't be as successful in the Warriors system and Curry likewise in a system that needs him to be ball dominant.

All it really means is that Curry isn't better in all circumstances. Likewise Westbrook. But then we already knew that.

Great answer!

Its beyond me how people think that playing in one system, with a particular set of teammates, translates to all situations. Not just referencing Steph and WB, but few players were able to be put in a system and surrounded by teammates that complement their skill set.

Its rare.

I think Magic, Jordan, Russell, Steph, Nash, and Harden are a select few that have had that opportunity......

Unfortunately fans become highly defensive at the mere suggestion. Iue otherwise? Probably not. It is a different role, so it is understandable that Curry isn't the best at playing that role. The high-usage point guard who controls everything is also a different role and it is understandable that Curry isn't the best at playing that role.

Fans "become defensive" when you blatantly ignore evidence that debunks what you're arguing. 13-14 curry under a defensive coach in mark jackson carried a less talented team to 50 wins and nearly knocked off a contender. He did so posting impact stats slightly worse than MVP KD at his peak. Even through these first few games, the warriors have been far worse without curry with a drop off bigger than what we've seem from peak kobe. No it seems, you decided to look at how many names you knew, and extrapolate the quality of a 14 man roster from a couple of starters. In that casem the issue isn't curry, but your evaluation of supporting casts.


Also, shout out to wilt chamberlain and kobe. The former of whom, joined a team that won at a 60 win pace and managed to make them worse and Kobe bryant who couldn't get a 35 win cast to the playoffs b2b. I do love how these proven floor rasiers regularly come up short when compared to suppsoed "cieling raisers", where's your thread for them?

Curry isn't a high usage guy

What the hell? Curry's usage from 14-16 was higher than durant's from 13-16(30 being where he crossed the 30% usage treshold. They both scored similar points per 75 in the playoffs. The difference is, that when curry's usage spiked, his effiency improved, when KD's usage spiked, his effiency plummeted. Then joined gsw where his effiency dropped back down.

Curry has done vastly better in "high usage" than durant. Amazing you want to go on a tangent about defensiveness when you can't even get your facts straight. The only player in the nba who does better on high usage than steph is Lebron James

[70sFan]

I love how some fans have to attack other great players like Wilt (and say bullsh**t about them) to defend Curry, even though they have nothing to this thread. We've reached absurd here, you can't debate with them...

[JN61]

Players thrive in different situations and systems. Westbrook wouldn't be as successful in the Warriors system and Curry likewise in a system that needs him to be ball dominant.

All it really means is that Curry isn't better in all circumstances. Likewise Westbrook. But then we already knew that.

He looks pretty good right now with few shooters around him.

[JN61]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-players-of-the-last-6-seasons/

Curry's case has closed, he has enough prime seasons to justify his impact on the court.

0 fmvp...case closed

wait...i forgot...remind me again how many FMVPs Russ has...

Granted he didn't play with 3 other future hall of famers in their prime.

[JN61]

Klay was not even good in 2013, 12.7 PER on 53%TS, I don't know why you did not mention Peak Russ had star Oladipo on his team..very cherry picking

2013 Klay > 2017 Oladipo. And Curry had David Lee too.

Oladipo in OKC produced about the same level as Klay. But he had a better year before going to OKC and he had a better year after OKC. As I recall one of the knocks on Westbrook afterward was that all the teammates that left OKC seemed to produce more the year after.

David Lee got injured in a loss in Game 1 of the 2013 first round of the playoffs too so he wasn't any help in that series.

Oladipo might be only one. Who highly credited Westbrook on his development.

There are several players who had their best years playing next to Westbrook.

[clyde21]

0 fmvp...case closed

wait...i forgot...remind me again how many FMVPs Russ has...

Granted he didn't play with 3 other future hall of famers in their prime.

u do know Steph was 1 play away from winning back to back chips before Durant even got here right

guess where KD was before he signed here??

[Ambrose]

No. I hate to make it sound so simple but Russ had Durant for years and never won anything. Steph won with KD and without him. No argument for Russ whatsoever.

[JN61]

wait...i forgot...remind me again how many FMVPs Russ has...

Granted he didn't play with 3 other future hall of famers in their prime.

u do know Steph was 1 play away from winning back to back chips before Durant even got here right

guess where KD was before he signed here??

1 win away as well.

[clyde21]

Granted he didn't play with 3 other future hall of famers in their prime.

u do know Steph was 1 play away from winning back to back chips before Durant even got here right

guess where KD was before he signed here??

1 win away as well.

in OKC next to Russ right?