GT #4: Bullets vs Rockets 8:00 PM (NBCSW/1500 AM)

[tontoz]

I think the team would surely be better with Wall, but the things nate says about his bad habits:

has a tendency to take plays off, to loaf on D, to not hustle when off the ball, and to brag about being the best PG in the league when he clearly isn't.

are all true. And lets not forget his love of midrange shots where he shoots 40% or less. He is frequently out of control on his drives, throws up a desperation shot, then whines to the ref when he doesn't get a call.

He has the talent to be a great pg but most of the time plays far below his talent level.

[TheBabyMaker]

Sorry guys I did not want to disrupt this thread. Nate its all fun. On to the next gane

[DCZards]

All the things that have been said about Wall are true...overpaid, lazy at times, bad shot selection, too much hero ball, etc. But let's give the young man the benefit of the doubt as it relates to how well (and smart) he'll play upon his return to action.

We all now know that Wall was playing hurt most of the time in recent seasons. Hopefully, that will be behind him. And I personally believe that these months watching from the bench will result in a smarter, more mature Wallstar when he's healthy and back playing the game he loves.

But we also know that when Wall is healthy and playing well he can be very, very good. In fact, one of the top PGs in the game. Maybe most importantly, he's an extremely talented ball distributor with great court vision, and has already proven that he's capable of making everyone on the court with him better.

Let's hope to see that Wall in a year or so...and not bury him with ongoing negativity until then. After all, the guy has been a solid citizen and loyal to and supportive of the Zards franchise and DC from the day he stepped foot in town.

"Vibes" matters...and I think John deserves our support as he recovers from a serious injury...and not the frequent criticism.

[TGW]

I will admit though...this team is interesting. They suck, but they're still worth watching. They try hard and there are no obvious liabilities, which was the norm during the Grunfeld era.

[nuposse04]

All the things that have been said about Wall are true...overpaid, lazy at times, bad shot selection, too much hero ball, etc. But let's give the young man the benefit of the doubt as it relates to how well (and smart) he'll play upon his return to action.

We all now know that Wall was playing hurt most of the time in recent seasons. Hopefully, that will be behind him. And I personally believe that these months watching from the bench will result in a smarter, more mature Wallstar when he's healthy and back playing the game he loves.

But we also know that when Wall is healthy and playing well he can be very, very good. In fact, one of the top PGs in the game. Maybe most importantly, he's an extremely talented ball distributor with great court vision, and has already proven that he's capable of making everyone on the court with him better.

Let's hope to see that Wall in a year or so...and not bury him with ongoing negativity until then. After all, the guy has been a solid citizen and loyal to and supportive of the Zards franchise and DC from the day he stepped foot in town.

He isn't exactly "young" anymore. And he won't retain his previous athleticism given he's coming off basically the worst injury a basketball player can have..short of like..an amputation.

There is no logical reason to think he'd make floor spacing better or team defense. He may help in transition here and there. He's MASSIVE sunk cost until he proves otherwise. The team shouldn't be afraid to bench him if he doesn't show out. He needs to do the little things now, cutting off the ball, being a better shooter and fighting over screens (what a concept!). If he does, then maybe he still has a future ahead of him. Otherwise he may be in China by his contracts end.

He's absolutely a nice guy for the community, and SAYS the right stuff for the past two years. For one reason or another it hasn't manifested into notable gains. I hope he can do it, but I'm not sure I'm counting on Wall's return to be a significant upgrade (more so if Brooks gets some sense and starts Troy Brown at PG)...especially at his value cost.

[montestewart]

Sorry guys I did not want to disrupt this thread. Nate its all fun. On to the next gane

One thing I would add re Nate, you can be sure with his opinions he's always got one eye on the cap, and he's the best capologist on the Wiz board.

There are not too many actual Wall haters around here. Wall's situation is very similar to Arenas' situation: great player with an injury issue re-signed to a huge contract. So far, an important difference with Wall (to me) is he's tried very hard not to rock the boat. I've generally liked his game and his personality a lot, and I am open to him coming back to be a part of the team, likely in a somewhat revised role (possibly a 3rd guard?). But I'm a fan of the team first, and if they figure out a way to move him that might improve the team, I would certainly support the move.

[closg00]

All the things that have been said about Wall are true...overpaid, lazy at times, bad shot selection, too much hero ball, etc. But let's give the young man the benefit of the doubt as it relates to how well (and smart) he'll play upon his return to action.

We all now know that Wall was playing hurt most of the time in recent seasons. Hopefully, that will be behind him. And I personally believe that these months watching from the bench will result in a smarter, more mature Wallstar when he's healthy and back playing the game he loves.

But we also know that when Wall is healthy and playing well he can be very, very good. In fact, one of the top PGs in the game. Maybe most importantly, he's an extremely talented ball distributor with great court vision, and has already proven that he's capable of making everyone on the court with him better.

Let's hope to see that Wall in a year or so...and not bury him with ongoing negativity until then. After all, the guy has been a solid citizen and loyal to and supportive of the Zards franchise and DC from the day he stepped foot in town.

He isn't exactly "young" anymore. And he won't retain his previous athleticism given he's coming off basically the worst injury a basketball player can have..short of like..an amputation.

There is no logical reason to think he'd make floor spacing better or team defense. He may help in transition here and there. He's MASSIVE sunk cost until he proves otherwise. The team shouldn't be afraid to bench him if he doesn't show out. He needs to do the little things now, cutting off the ball, being a better shooter and fighting over screens (what a concept!). If he does, then maybe he still has a future ahead of him. Otherwise he may be in China by his contracts end.

He's absolutely a nice guy for the community, and SAYS the right stuff for the past two years. For one reason or another it hasn't manifested into notable gains. I hope he can do it, but I'm not sure I'm counting on Wall's return to be a significant upgrade (more so if Brooks gets some sense and starts Troy Brown at PG)...especially at his value cost.

I agree with you assessment, John's type of game pre-injury was already kind of offensive sludge for the other guys forced to stand around or run down the court on his speed charges to the basket. Just an observations, not "hate"

[gambitx777]

Well I think it all come down to is wall going to buy in. He has amazing court vision and passing ability. He didn't doesn't need to be the lead scoring guy any more he needs to be the best point guard he can. Play with effort and give effort on D like he use to. 15 points and 10 assists a game isn't much to ask for and that would be perfectly fine in my book.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Illmatic12]

Nate I respect your opinion but if you think even a 70% Wall won’t at least be an upgrade over Ish Smith, I mean cmon .. i have nothing further to say on that.

It’s also absurd to say some of the “best basketball” has been with Wall out. With a healthy Wall the Wizards won multiple playoff series, without him they’ve been an under .500 team that has accomplished nothing. Let’s not peddle in revisionist history here.

You will note that I said very specifically in my post that the team is better with Wall. Wall is unquestionably more talented than Ish Smith and you need talent to get anywhere in this league, particularly in the playoffs. And when Wall is motivated, he plays real hard. The problem is that motivation is inconsistent.

I'm just saying that only very rarely have we seen the team play with sustained high effort and unselfishness where the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. It's noteworthy that the two times when that did happen in the regular season were when Wall was out. Maybe that's pure coincidence. Maybe not.

Everything else you’re describing refers to overall organizational culture issues that existed under every Ernie Grunfeld team , before Wall was even in DC. There’s been a clear culture shift .. and btw, John has been actively involved in giving his input on said changes

You may well be right about this. I hope so. I've seen Wall play with passion and high energy before. I hope to see it again. Hopefully, after healing from his injury, there will be no more seasons when Wall literally has the slowest average speed in the league. Let's not act like that didn't happen.

To me, the only question is Wall's health - not his motivation. The man wouldn't have gotten to where he is in life without being intensely self-motivated. He wouldn't be killing himself every day in his injury rehab , only so he can return and not have motivation. That doesn't even make sense to me..

Its a flat out false narrative that the team peaked without Wall, like cmon. The Wizards' most spirited stretch of play in the Wall-era was clearly in the '16-17 season when they had the 17-game home winning streak.. WITH a healthy John, and the entire starting five plus Oubre clicking on all cylinders.

And yeah he did have the slowest average speed.. shortly before it was revealed that for the past few years he'd been playing an 82-game NBA schedule with freakin bone spurs in his foot, causing intense pain. Idk maybe that's a coincidence, maybe not..

[tontoz]

Wall has been in the league for years. Changing his habits at this point won't be easy. Cutting way down on those midrange pullups, moving without the ball, giving consistent effort on defense..... not saying it won't happen but I am skeptical.

[payitforward]

With all his flaws, John Wall has been a really, really good NBA player. Do Wizards fans over-rate him historically? Of course they do. Fans always overrate players on their teams.

I don't see the point of speculating on how he'll play once he returns. For one thing, the biggest single question about that is in the physical basis of that return: how much will he get back of his physical tools & how quickly? Given the critical but unknown/unknowable answer to that question, what's the point of worrying about the other stuff at this point?

[nate33]

Wall has been in the league for years. Changing his habits at this point won't be easy. Cutting way down on those midrange pullups, moving without the ball, giving consistent effort on defense..... not saying it won't happen but I am skeptical.

That's where I'm at too. John Wall is a very good basketball player. He was the best player on the team during our last extended run into the playoffs. I am not trying to dismiss that.

But that doesn't mean there isn't reason to doubt how a Wall-led team will look going forward, even if Wall comes back 100% healthy. My overarching concern is that I fear Wall has the type of game that ultimately limits a team's peak. That is, Wall is best when he dominates the ball, but he's not efficient enough with the ball to lead a team with the title. He reminds me a bit of Westbrook or Carmelo Anthony in that respect. You have to build your team around him to maximize his talents, but when you do, the team isn't quite good enough.

I'm not saying Wall is selfish. He absolutely isn't. He loves to pass and would be happiest if he led the league in assists. I fully believe that. I just don't think a championship offense can be constructed around a ball-dominant PG with a suspect outside shot. The offense is too predictable. And Wall has never shown the ability to play off the ball, and has only rarely and intermittently shown the ability to be a lock down defender on defense.

Wall is going to have to make a lot of changes to his preferred style of play if we are to contend with him and Beal as our two biggest stars. Wall will need to become more like a late-career Jason Kidd, or a rich man's Satoransky - a guy who is crazy good defensively; who can play on ball and off ball, who can hit catch-and-shoot 3's and make backdoor cuts as well as run pick-and-roll. I'm hoping Wall will show the ability to do these things. He hasn't yet. And if he doesn't show these things, I'd be inclined to trade him and try and rebuild around Beal and the youngsters.

[WallToWall]

game tomorrow vs Minn. Who has got the game thread?

[gambitx777]

We could absolutely win 3 of the next 4 and be 500 going into game nine.

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[Illmatic12]

Aren’t you guys making some implicit assumptions by assuming that the Wizards will be a “Wall-led” team or they will “build the offense around him” when he returns?

No one is saying that. We’re saying that Wall has certain tools in his toolbox that will positively help the team with the style they want to establish starting this season. And John is acting as an assistant coach, so he will know the new system inside and out.

Listened to an interview of PJ Tucker and he basically laughed at the idea that people thought the Rockets offense wouldn’t work with Russ and Harden. Two great creators surrounded by shooters lol, why wouldn’t it work? Their offense certainly looks fine to me..

It’s the same thing here. There’s no need to make the game of basketball more complex than it is , people. By the time Wall returns to the lineup, he’ll be playing with more shooting and space than he’s ever had. John Wall + Bradley Beal + shooters = good.

Yeah he’ll have to work a little harder to adjust his game to Beal’s dominant usage, but that will mostly be solved by playing at a faster pace so there will be more possessions in the game for both of them. Houston increased their pace this year to accommodate Westbrook. Lebron + Wade played on the fastbreak to allow both of them to get out and make plays (when they were young and Wade had knees). Same thing.

On defense, Wall will be an upgrade due to his ability to switch onto wings, play passing lanes, and use his length to apply back pressure on PnRs coverage. Basketball isn’t that complicated, guys. Wall is a very skilled player, and adding a healthy JW to the lineup will make the Wizards better.

[closg00]

They're still talking about this game
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/10/31/20941623/rockets-wizards-total-score-no-defense-james-harden-59-points-russell-westbrook

[Wizardspride]

All the things that have been said about Wall are true...overpaid, lazy at times, bad shot selection, too much hero ball, etc. But let's give the young man the benefit of the doubt as it relates to how well (and smart) he'll play upon his return to action.

We all now know that Wall was playing hurt most of the time in recent seasons. Hopefully, that will be behind him. And I personally believe that these months watching from the bench will result in a smarter, more mature Wallstar when he's healthy and back playing the game he loves.

But we also know that when Wall is healthy and playing well he can be very, very good. In fact, one of the top PGs in the game. Maybe most importantly, he's an extremely talented ball distributor with great court vision, and has already proven that he's capable of making everyone on the court with him better.

Let's hope to see that Wall in a year or so...and not bury him with ongoing negativity until then. After all, the guy has been a solid citizen and loyal to and supportive of the Zards franchise and DC from the day he stepped foot in town.

And he won't retain his previous athleticism given he's coming off basically the worst injury a basketball player can have..short of like..an amputation.
.

Perhaps....although technically John didn't rupture his achillies (not a complete tear).....unlike Cousins, Durant etc

We shall see.

[TheBabyMaker]

Now looking back at it this was one of the most ridiculous (not very good) games ever in pro sports. Can we now move on to the next game.

Can we talk about KAT trying to knock Ebiids teeth out because he trolled him in the Philly Minny game the other day? time to move on folks