Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Post #1321 » by **paulpressey25** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 4:30 pm

I think the numbers are going to sustain. He’s a good player on a team with no other number one options. Plus Indy needs to justify their move and contract.

Feel the debate comes back to whether or not a three headed guard trio of Bledsoe, Brogdon, Hill would be worth more to this team than Middleton, given the money. (And I’m assuming the SF hole was at least plugged with Bojan). I’d always answer yes to that question.

But the Bucks answered no, thus banking on DDV and Sterling being those guys.

LUKE23 · Post #1322 » by **LUKE23** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:21 pm

I mean, you can debate Brogdon over Bledose, Brogdon over Middleton, or keeping Brogdon and the team paying the tax, and not having Lopez/Matthews. Personally, Brogdon over Bledsoe and keeping Brogdon and paying the tax were both pretty no brainer decisions.

My biggest thing was this - this past summer was our one year to use FA in any meaningful way. We are in title or bust mode with GA here. You pay the tax to keep a player like Brogdon who is just entering his prime.

The only way letting Brogdon go works out in our favor is if we win the title, or we keep GA and the Indy 1st rounder ends up a comparable player.

coolhandluke121 · Post #1323 » by **coolhandluke121** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:33 pm

I get a Sessions-esque vibe from Brogdon's numbers this year, and I'm not talking about the former attorney general. I think they've played Detroit twice, Cleveland twice, and Brooklyn. Not a lot of PG defense there. They also have a losing record. I haven't watched their games, but I watched a lot of Brogdon over the years and I can't imagine a world where a Brogdon-centric offense has enough upside to lead to anything but mediocrity. We saw a lot of ball-pounding and stagnant two-man game from him here, and getting license to do more of that will certainly boost his numbers and probably his salary, but it won't convince me he's a guy you build around as a top-3 talent on a contender. I also can't imagine a world where he consistently stays in front of PG defensive assignments well enough to lead his team to anything but low seeds in a weak conference.

Note that this is NOT the same as saying Brogdon = Sessions. We know Brogdon can also fit in perfectly as part of a winning formula by being an uber-efficient complementary scorer, which Sessions could not. They definitely should have chosen him over Khris IMO, but what the players want matters a lot, and if Giannis wanted Khris and Brooke, there's not much you can do. And if they actually had to pay Lopez, Hill, and Khris what they did to avoid losing them for nothing, then they couldn't have even matched offers for Brogdon, since they had to pull the qualifying offer to have just enough cap space for everything else they did.

So it's all a question of whom they prioritized, and I agree it was a mistake based on the information we have, but we don't have all the information. I think they were in a very difficult situation with lots of lose-lose propositions over the summer, and it was the culmination of lots of mistakes over the years, but they did reasonably well under the circumstances.

And I wouldn't trade DDV for Brogdon on his current salary anyway.

soxperry · Post #1324 » by **soxperry** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:33 pm

DavidDunn21 wrote:Malcolm was the only starting player who hadn't already made generational money. He knew he was older and sometimes injured. He had to get the bag.

Ownership and the coaching staff showed that they valued other players more than him. In the case of Khris, much more than him.

So after being subjected to dishonest Middleton player groupings for two years:
("He's one of only five players averaging more than 18.2/5.8/4.9 and shooting more than 38.2 from 3!!!")
I'm here for all the misleading Brogdon stats.

By the way, it isn't that he has a slow release. He simply sets and decides whether or not to attack the closeout. It's actually a smart thing that he does. He gets an extra beat to measure the shot. It took all of three games for people to turn on Wes for letting it fly.

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Sure, but it's also a limitation as evidenced by his 3p% on shots where he can't take "an extra beat to measure the shot."

Are you saying the 20 million dollar guy in his prime is a better shooter than the minimum salary almost dead vet? Intriguing.

LUKE23 · Post #1325 » by **LUKE23** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:38 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:I get a Sessions-esque vibe from Brogdon's numbers this year, and I'm not talking about the former attorney general. I think they've played Detroit twice, Cleveland twice, and Brooklyn. Not a lot of PG defense there. They also have a losing record. I haven't watched their games, but I watched a lot of Brogdon over the years and I can't imagine a world where a Brogdon-centric offense has enough upside to lead to anything but mediocrity. We saw a lot of ball-pounding and stagnant two-man game from him here, and getting license to do more of that will certainly boost his numbers and probably his salary, but it won't convince me he's a guy you build around as a top-3 talent on a contender. I also can't imagine a world where he consistently stays in front of PG defensive assignments well enough to lead his team to anything but low seeds in a weak conference.

Note that this is NOT the same as saying Brogdon = Sessions. We know Brogdon can also fit in perfectly as part of a winning formula by being an uber-efficient complementary scorer, which Sessions could not. They definitely should have chosen him over Khris IMO, but what the players want matters a lot, and if Giannis wanted Khris and Brooke, there's not much you can do. And if they actually had to pay Lopez, Hill, and Khris what they did to avoid losing them for nothing, then they couldn't have even matched offers for Brogdon, since they had to pull the qualifying offer to have just enough cap space for everything else they did.

So it's all a question of whom they prioritized, and I agree it was a mistake based on the information we have, but we don't have all the information. I think they were in a very difficult situation with lots of lose-lose propositions over the summer, and it was the culmination of lots of mistakes over the years, but they did reasonably well under the circumstances.

And I wouldn't trade DDV for Brogdon on his current salary anyway.

But we wouldn't be running a Brogdon-centered offense, he'd be our third option. To me, you have to look at the dollars allocated him and say that Bledsoe + scrub over him is a big mistake, especially considering how much better of a fit Brogdon is with our starting five. I mean, he's proven he's a .400+ 3 point guy every season, who can also attack/finish at the rim.

To me, knowing that Brogdon was RFA, but keeping Bledsoe over him, is a bad move. If that first turns into something via draft or trade and Giannis is still here, then that changes things. But not looking good right now.

Willie Colon · Post #1326 » by **Willie Colon** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:41 pm

Brogdon is everything you want in a point guard right now. I'm going to be tilted about this for a long time.

TroyD92 · Post #1327 » by **TroyD92** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:44 pm

midranger wrote:The minimization of what Brogdon brought for us and what he’s bring for Indy currently remains mysterious to me.

He’s pretty much exactly what we need right now. A guard to make threes at a high clip and do something positive off the bounce against an unbalanced defense. Also showing he can clearly handle being a playmaker when Bledsoe decides to go all Bledsoe.

2-3 record against some of the worst teams in the league ?

soxperry · Post #1328 » by **soxperry** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:46 pm

Willie Colon wrote:Brogdon is everything you want in a point guard right now. I'm going to be tilted about this for a long time.

Except he's not really a point guard, can't guard point guards, and doesn't have the handles of a point guard. He's a shooting guard playing point guard.

LUKE23 · Post #1329 » by **LUKE23** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 5:48 pm

He has a 4.25 A/TO right now. I'll wait to see that drop off significantly before I say he can't be a lead point guard.

BucksFanSD · Post #1330 » by **BucksFanSD** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 6:14 pm

Future looking, we need a PG next to Giannis to be at least average from 3 point land, preferably much higher than average. However the Bucks management plan to address that should be up to them. Not doing so would be a disservice to Giannis IMO. If it's not Brogdon it should be someone with similar shooting abilities.

coolhandluke121 · Post #1331 » by **coolhandluke121** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 7:27 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
But we wouldn't be running a Brogdon-centered offense, he'd be our third option. To me, you have to look at the dollars allocated him and say that Bledsoe + scrub over him is a big mistake, especially considering how much better of a fit Brogdon is with our starting five. I mean, he's proven he's a .400+ 3 point guy every season, who can also attack/finish at the rim.

To me, knowing that Brogdon was RFA, but keeping Bledsoe over him, is a bad move. If that first turns into something via draft or trade and Giannis is still here, then that changes things. But not looking good right now.

I definitely agree with everyone who says they prioritized the wrong guys. I'm just saying I don't think they let some kind of emerging star get away, despite his gaudy numbers.

ETA: It's easier to find another guy who can be a great complementary scorer than it is to find another perennial all-star, so if I thought Brogdon was one, I'd be a lot more preoccupied with the mistake, which still could have multiple silver linings (draft pick, DDV emergence, dodging a Brogdon injury bullet, etc).

DavidDunn21 · Post #1332 » by **DavidDunn21** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 8:07 pm

soxperry wrote:
Willie Colon wrote:Brogdon is everything you want in a point guard right now. I'm going to be tilted about this for a long time.

Except he's not really a point guard, can't guard point guards, and doesn't have the handles of a point guard. He's a shooting guard playing point guard.

You just described Tony Parker.

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TroyD92 · Post #1333 » by **TroyD92** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 8:09 pm

DavidDunn21 wrote:
soxperry wrote:
Willie Colon wrote:Brogdon is everything you want in a point guard right now. I'm going to be tilted about this for a long time.

Except he's not really a point guard, can't guard point guards, and doesn't have the handles of a point guard. He's a shooting guard playing point guard.
You just described Tony Parker.

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Tony Parker now ?

BroncoBuck · Post #1334 » by **BroncoBuck** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 9:12 pm

Willie Colon wrote:Brogdon is everything you want in a point guard right now. I'm going to be tilted about this for a long time.

He can’t guard opposing point guards. It was true here, and it’s been true in Indy.

DavidDunn21 · Post #1335 » by **DavidDunn21** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 9:37 pm

Now tell me about the point guards for the Jordan Bulls or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or the Spurs or every LeBron team ever.

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Bernman · Post #1336 » by **Bernman** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 9:49 pm

BroncoBuck wrote:He can’t guard opposing point guards. It was true here, and it’s been true in Indy.

He's merely adequate at it, but not a total sieve. Definitely better at the 2 where he's solid. But nothing would have stopped us from having him keep guarding them, while DiVo or an Avery Bradley type took the 1's, and Brogdon got more handling duties than before w/ Bled gone.

Chuck Diesel · Post #1337 » by **Chuck Diesel** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 10:21 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:I get a Sessions-esque vibe from Brogdon's numbers this year, and I'm not talking about the former attorney general.

No politics! Honestly can’t believe MD hasn’t cracked down on this reference yet.

Licensed to Il · Post #1338 » by **Licensed to Il** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 10:47 pm

I wish Brogdon well, I wish he was still a Buck, Im not going to pine for him like we all did for Tobias. We are in a much different stage of team building than we were back then. Good teams have to let players go.

It is fair to speculate if ownership will pay the tax in the future. Also fair to say Brogs is not the guy to go all in with.

raysbookclub · Post #1339 » by **raysbookclub** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 11:01 pm

The other big thing about Brogdon is that he's been significantly injured for each of the last two seasons and was either missing or not at full strength in each of the last two playoffs. The latter season it was plantar fasciitis, which can be chronic for some people. I'm not ready to consider the non-signing decision a bad move until Brogdon plays a full season without significant time missed, especially with his foot.

I liked Brogdon a lot, he's a smart player, made good basketball decisions, was sound offensively and defensively. Would I rather have him over Bledsoe in a Game 7 tonight? Yes. Would I rather have him over Bledsoe if they both play a full season? Yes.

But the injury history does bother me, and 4/85 isn't a small contract--it's top 50 in the NBA.

kid idioteque · Post #1340 » by **kid idioteque** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 11:49 pm

books wrote:The other big thing about Brogdon is that he's been significantly injured for each of the last two seasons and was either missing or not at full strength in each of the last two playoffs. The latter season it was plantar fasciitis, which can be chronic for some people. I'm not ready to consider the non-signing decision a bad move until Brogdon plays a full season without significant time missed, especially with his foot.

I liked Brogdon a lot, he's a smart player, made good basketball decisions, was sound offensively and defensively. Would I rather have him over Bledsoe in a Game 7 tonight? Yes. Would I rather have him over Bledsoe if they both play a full season? Yes.

But the injury history does bother me, and 4/85 isn't a small contract--it's top 50 in the NBA.

Yeah, the injury history is quite extensive.