The James Harden Thread (2019-20)

[thekdog34]

I think you are asking the wrong questions. Houston is the 2nd worst defence in the league, a good 2.4 points off of New Orleans above them and 10.6 points off of San Antonio, who are league average. Only Golden State who have a dumpster fire roster are worse. The starting backcourt is a big reason for it. Neither of them fight through screens or even do fundamental things consistently well.

All true. But also surprising how good the offense is with harden playing so poorly

It just speaks to the offensive savant Harden is AND to the fact that, aesthetically pleasing or not, “not the right way to play blah blah,” or not, this system works for offense.

Sooner or later those threes go in (like they did the other night) and Harden is going to average near 40 a game in 36 minutes or so, and that’s crazy.

But it all depends on those “awful for anyone else” shots going in and that’s the bet they make.

—Last year on 3pt pull ups (mostly step backs): 36.3%
—2018 on 3 pt pull ups(mostly step backs): 38.8% (an absurdity that led to him have a 1.22 PPP on ISOs, one of the craziest stats innmodern basketball history)
—This year: 20%

—Last year: 32.4% on tightly contested threes (5.8 shot per game); 39.3% on open threes on 6.0 attempts per game (space created via step back somthey weren’t really open, per se, but he got space)
—This year: 20.7% on tightly contested threes (4.8 shot per game); 19.5% on open threes on 6.8 attempts per game (space created via step back—6.8 attempts per game)

Until the playoffs then he's not good

[The Realist]

The fact that without having to watch one second on Harden playing this season I can with absolute certainty say he should be averaging 6-7 fts instead of 16.1, is enough to drop my interest to the league by solid 15-20%. Him being some sort of a "genius" in reacting in a way at the initial moment of contact to make the contact look more severe than it is, and the referees' inability to analyze in any way the forces actually colliding and into which body parts they are directed to, has nothing to do with how good he actually is at basketball and that this has been allowed to continue for about 7 years now is frankly embarrassing to the league.

[AdagioPace]

The fact that without having to watch one second on Harden playing this season I can with absolute certainty say he should be averaging 6-7 fts instead of 16.1, is enough to drop my interest to the league by solid 15-20%. Him being some sort of a "genius" in reacting in a way at the initial moment of contact to make the contact look more severe than it is, and the referees' inability to analyze in any way the forces actually colliding and into which body parts they are directed to, has nothing to do with how good he actually is at basketball and that this has been allowed to continue for about 7 years now is frankly embarrassing to the league.

there's been a dangerous shift of values towards cheap entertainment favouring a superstar-driven, offensive-countable-stats driven league which would explain why Harden's "dirty" style is not ostracized by the league with a decisive rules reform or by giving the Refs clearer indications.

Harden's basketball goodness is hard to appreciate in its most "faithful and purest form". Even though current rules with relative weaknesses and rules enforcement is part of the game, what should not be part of the game is consistent rules-circumvention towards which the NBA has been passive and/or has not yet found a countermove (willingly or not). Of course we all know Harden is probably the best 3-point ISO scorer there's ever been (and a capable midrange shooter has shown in the past), but saying that his offensive efficiency has been a bit "inflated" is not a completely baseless claim. The fact that something is still officially considered within "the rules" doesn't mean it doesn't smell like "faultiness".

[thekdog34]

The fact that without having to watch one second on Harden playing this season I can with absolute certainty say he should be averaging 6-7 fts instead of 16.1, is enough to drop my interest to the league by solid 15-20%. Him being some sort of a "genius" in reacting in a way at the initial moment of contact to make the contact look more severe than it is, and the referees' inability to analyze in any way the forces actually colliding and into which body parts they are directed to, has nothing to do with how good he actually is at basketball and that this has been allowed to continue for about 7 years now is frankly embarrassing to the league.

It isn't so easy.

The fact of the matter is he's one of the top drivers year after year. Defenders cannot stay in front of him. On top of that, he's an excellent finisher at the rim and an excellent passer off drives.

So the majority of fouls are legitimate.

The travesty is how hard he works to get a few extra bs calls that annoy everyone.

And that stupid, mediocre step back 3 which almost always fails in the playoffs

[LKN]

Until Harden can come anywhere close to his regular season #s in the playoffs they are going to be looked at with skepticism.

His foul draw rate (esp the last couple of years) is much lower in the playoffs... and while he's still a very good playoff performer he's just not the same guy from the regular season. Until he can change that he's going to be a notch or two below the true top superstars.

[70sFan]

I just realized that Harden would be probably one of my favorite players ever had he played before 1990s. Combine oldschool style with his craftiness and dedication and you'll get one of the best post guards ever. I can see him being like more agressively scoring version of Oscar Robertson or better playmaking Adrian Dantley. He would be the definition of oldschool game.

He plays in 2010s though and that makes him one of the least exciting superstars ever to watch. I stil like analyzing his game because you can learn so much from him, but his lazy stepback threes and 10 seconds of dribbling in one place is too much for me.

You can't deny his greatness though. He's so skilled and crafty. I wish him good postseason run this year. He wasn't bad against Warriors last playoffs but I know he could have played better.

[70sFan]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

[Dr Spaceman]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

He was good in 2018 and very good at times in the playoffs. His offense suffered a lot from him putting so much effort into defense that season in the playoffs.

[Dr Spaceman]

The fact that without having to watch one second on Harden playing this season I can with absolute certainty say he should be averaging 6-7 fts instead of 16.1, is enough to drop my interest to the league by solid 15-20%. Him being some sort of a "genius" in reacting in a way at the initial moment of contact to make the contact look more severe than it is, and the referees' inability to analyze in any way the forces actually colliding and into which body parts they are directed to, has nothing to do with how good he actually is at basketball and that this has been allowed to continue for about 7 years now is frankly embarrassing to the league.

It isn't so easy.

The fact of the matter is he's one of the top drivers year after year. Defenders cannot stay in front of him. On top of that, he's an excellent finisher at the rim and an excellent passer off drives.

So the majority of fouls are legitimate.

The travesty is how hard he works to get a few extra bs calls that annoy everyone.

And that stupid, mediocre step back 3 which almost always fails in the playoffs

It was so mediocre that the entire league decided to abandon their defensive schemes and either put 2 on the ball or have a defender play behind him (!) to take it away last year. Teams were willing to let him shoot layups rather than give up a stepback.

And he did hit in fine against Golden State, he just couldn’t do it against Utah and the “doggy style defense”.

[K_chile22]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

Nah this is his worst defense since his first year in Houston where all those lowlights came from. He's been embarrassing. 0 effort

[70sFan]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

He was good in 2018 and very good at times in the playoffs. His offense suffered a lot from him putting so much effort into defense that season in the playoffs.

I wouldn't call him good at any point in his Rockets career. Sure, he put much more effort in 2018 than usually, but he was still lazy off-ball. His man defense was decent because he at least put effort to stay in front of his man and his strength is always a big plus in switches, but very good? No, I don't buy that sorry..

[No-more-rings]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

He was good in 2018 and very good at times in the playoffs. His offense suffered a lot from him putting so much effort into defense that season in the playoffs.

I've been arguing this in the peaks project for a while now, and even showed video evidence of it and most are still hand waiving it away.

Not sure how legit an excuse it is for his offense to fall that much though.

[Dr Spaceman]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

He was good in 2018 and very good at times in the playoffs. His offense suffered a lot from him putting so much effort into defense that season in the playoffs.

I wouldn't call him good at any point in his Rockets career. Sure, he put much more effort in 2018 than usually, but he was still lazy off-ball. His man defense was decent because he at least put effort to stay in front of his man and his strength is always a big plus in switches, but very good? No, I don't buy that sorry..

His off-ball defense was his strongest area of defense. In the 2018 playoffs he was 3rd in deflections per game with 4.1 (first among players who advanced past the first round) and third in steals per game (1st again among players who advanced a round). He is genuinely very good at playing passing lanes. He is also one of the strongest defensive rebounding guards in the whole league. He stopped getting backcut routinely a loooooooong time ago. Houston has been very good at forcing opponent turnovers for his whole tenure there and crank it up to elite levels in the playoffs.

On-ball was by far the weakest are of his defense actually. I think you’ve got it backwards to be honest. He is completely terrible at stopping penetration but genuinely good at everything else when he cares to try and elite in some areas (Post D, passing lanes, steals, DRBs)

The Rockets could not have pulled off the defensive performance they did if he was as bad as you say.

[Dr Spaceman]

Also, his defense is absolutely terrible this year. Without any improvements, it could be his worst defensive season since 2017 and it's not like he was good after...

He was good in 2018 and very good at times in the playoffs. His offense suffered a lot from him putting so much effort into defense that season in the playoffs.

I've been arguing this in the peaks project for a while now, and even showed video evidence of it and most are still hand waiving it away.

Not sure how legit an excuse it is for his offense to fall that much though.

Not trying to make an excuse just saying that a guy who relies on deep contested threes off the dribble is going to struggle when his legs are tired. You see it in the performances where he’d come out guns blazing for game 1s and then by games 4-5 couldn’t hit the ocean from a boat. This was especially true against GSW with how taxing the defensive scheme was (and you see it in everyone’s shooting numbers, not just James’). At the end of games 4 and 5 players on both teams were stumbling around like they were drunk; fatigue was endemic. Short rotations and short breaks between games.

Harden tweaked his form a bit that offseason to load up less off his legs which is why he could shoot so many more threes in 2019 and also why his percentages stayed good in the postseason (and also he wasn’t trying as hard defensively).

I don’t know if I would trade Harden’s defense in 2018 for better shooting efficiency. The best offense ever looked totally incapable of scoring on them.

[thekdog34]

The fact that without having to watch one second on Harden playing this season I can with absolute certainty say he should be averaging 6-7 fts instead of 16.1, is enough to drop my interest to the league by solid 15-20%. Him being some sort of a "genius" in reacting in a way at the initial moment of contact to make the contact look more severe than it is, and the referees' inability to analyze in any way the forces actually colliding and into which body parts they are directed to, has nothing to do with how good he actually is at basketball and that this has been allowed to continue for about 7 years now is frankly embarrassing to the oeague.

It isn't so easy.

The fact of the matter is he's one of the top drivers year after year. Defenders cannot stay in front of him. On top of that, he's an excellent finisher at the rim and an excellent passer off drives.

So the majority of fouls are legitimate.

The travesty is how hard he works to get a few extra bs calls that annoy everyone.

And that stupid, mediocre step back 3 which almost always fails in the playoffs

It was so mediocre that the entire league decided to abandon their defensive schemes and either put 2 on the ball or have a defender play behind him (!) to take it away last year. Teams were willing to let him shoot layups rather than give up a stepback.

And he did hit in fine against Golden State, he just couldn’t do it against Utah and the “doggy style defense”.

Well Milwaukee pretty much shut him down by overplaying him to one side and forcing him left. Utah tried that for two games without the right personnel, except playing behind him for some reason. Harden did well until they played him normally, then he shot poorly again.

We can just look at his 3pt shooting from 16-18. Basically around 30%. Last year he got to 35% which still really isn't good.

He's an elite drive ans dish guy. And an elite finisher at the rim. I think it's a shame hes gotten lazy and focused on 3pt shooting which hes just not that good at depite the fact he can go 8-16 against poor defenses

[kayess]

Absolutely horrendous performance from him tonight. Didn't even try to go for 50 when he still had 17 seconds to launch one, **** scrub.

Also, why is this thread dead?? He's had early struggles but he's been lighting it up still!

[Krodis]

Absolutely horrendous performance from him tonight. Didn't even try to go for 50 when he still had 17 seconds to launch one, **** scrub.

Also, why is this thread dead?? He's had early struggles but he's been lighting it up still!

Too bad he can't give the defense effort Kawhi does, where he just sort of stands in the general vicinity of Ben McLemore while his guards get toasted by Harden.

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[TheGOATRises007]

Best offensive player in the league and it's not really close.

Still, he needs a strong playoff run to shake off the critics.

Westbrook will need to improve on his shooting too.

[NbaAllDay]

Best offensive player in the league and it's not really close.

Still, he needs a strong playoff run to shake off the critics.

Westbrook will need to improve on his shooting too.

If he actually has a strong playoff run and shakes off the number of critics who revert to the "doesn't do it in the playoffs so it doesn't count" He will hopefully be recognized for how ridiculously good he is offensively.

[Cavsfansince84]

Best offensive player in the league and it's not really close.

Still, he needs a strong playoff run to shake off the critics.

Westbrook will need to improve on his shooting too.

Harden is generally judged very fairly on this board imo. One strong playoff doesn't just erase all the others he's had(some of which have been ok). I just don't get it though. Most everyone acknowledges he is atg level scorer and even in the poll I made asking if he could be top 25 all time without a ring the overwhelming answer was that yes he could be. So why do people act like he is so unfairly criticized and underappreciated? You have to accept the good with the bad when it comes to Harden and his overall legacy as a player. Averaging 36ppg doesn't just negate all of that. Its obvious he is a great talent.