Game 8: Miwaukee Bucks (5-2) @ Los Angeles Clippers (5-2) - 10:00 PM

[TheNewEra]

Help defense on Giannis was obviously instructed and insisted on before the game, and you can clearly see that they stress it more when Giannis is facing up Zu. Not gonna argue where Giannis was or wasn't gonna score before he made an assist, cause it's a hypothetical that gets us nowhere, but I don't think you should just blame the help for sagging off in these situations. With a guy like Giannis, you either have to live with him scoring at will in the paint or you have to live with crowding him and leaving guys open. It's clear the instruction was to help aggressively, specially when it was Zubac in front of him. Maybe if we had Kawhi we could've done something similar to what the Raptors did in the ECF last year, and you don't have to help as much.

Anyway, my point wasn't that this is all Zubac's fault, it was that Zubac's strengths and weaknesses allow for certain line-up configurations and don't allow for certain others. You're very happily assuming that if he plays more, the shots Trez missed just go away and we just rebound better, but I'm saying that having him out there presents a different set of problems that don't necessarily make us a better team.

Having a big rim protector like him is more useful in a game like today where we face a bunch of high usage guards that make a living of driving into the paint after a pick'n'roll, than yesterday against a monster with little range surrounded by shooters, that will face you up in the paint and score around the rim at will. Not to mention we needed one of Lou or Trez on the floor at all times cause we didn't have any other credible offensive threats, and playing Zubac big minutes would mean sitting Trez big minutes as well, which we couldn't afford.

I love Zu, but I don't agree with your complaint at all in this particular instance.

They stressed it to a fault at times with everyone. Don’t believe there was any extra priority with Zu because he’s shown he’s a high quality rim protector and help man. You attack the smaller defender like when Harrell was in because the lane becomes more open and physically it’s a better matchup.

As well as I’m not going to argue Zubac was getting beat when I provided evidence that Zu remained in front of Giannis in the situations you brought up. Is no hypothetical needed Zu remained in front of his assignment and forced him into a pass. That’s also my issue with your argument on both of those plays I showed and mentioned we don’t see an aggressive trap or attack by Harkless or Green (Green definitely didn’t come and help aggressively). I still don’t see where you are getting this “because Zubac was on him” situations like the team was flustered it was clearly the plan because he was guarding Giannis multiple possessions and Zu was baiting him to attack. The raptors played the same wall scheme that used Gasol and a bunch of defenders we just did not have the strength of Kawhi on the perimeter to feed him into Zubac like the raptors did with Kawhi and Gasol.


I’m happily saying that when Harrell is still clearly gassed coming off playing the entire 3rd quarter he might need more rest on the bench. I didn’t say Trez shouldn’t play I noted even before the quarter started he’s going to be tired out having to score and as the game grinds down like it did last season he’s not going to be able to defend the rim or snatch rebounds the same. Harrell is a energy big you can’t burn him out with minutes and even more so when he’s putting that much energy into scoring you have to manage the minutes to maximize Zu and Harrell and cover both of their weaknesses.

He was useful in the game last night against a superstar who’s not a noted shooter who you want to be challenged at the rim. It’s the exact reason we had Zubac guard Giannis because we planned to either let him shoot or face the size of our shot blocker and as long as Zubac stayed in front of him in which he did then it’s mission accomplished on his part.

Man Zubac had 8 points in 9 minutes of play I’m not exactly buying we couldn’t rest Trez because we didn’t have another big man that could score. Zubac has been outscoring or matching the points of the rest of starters beside Kawhi so far this season in half the minutes.

[TheNewEra]

That -11 would be interesting if there was no context to it

Brook Lopez scored 5 total points while on the floor with Zubac. Majority of the points scored with Zubac on the floor were George Hill and Kyle Korver 3s

One of the Korver threes was because Zu can't defend out of the paint so he got matched up with Giannis who he couldn't guard when he faces up, Bev who was switched onto Lopez went to double team, Giannis passes to an open Lopez, JaMychal has to rotate on Lopez who passes to an open Korver, boom open three by Korver.

Next three by Korver, Giannis attacking on transition it's obvious he's just gonna blow by Zubac, Harkless goes to help, Giannis gives the ball at the top of the arc to Harkless' man, and an open Korver splashes another three.

The third three by Korver, pretty much a copycat of the previous play, Giannis facing up Zu in semi transition, when he's about to blow by for an open layup, both Harkless and JaMychal go to help, pass to an open three by Korver. With the bonus that this time Ilyasova was wide open at the three opint line as well, so either of them could've made it.

Basketball is a complex game and you can't measure Zubac's defense by how many points the other C scored. That's not to say Zu is terrible or to blame him for this loss or anything, but with this roster configuration, and with a back to back tomorrow where he's gonna start, he played the right amount of minutes imo.

Well done. Sometimes the chemistry just isn't working and you have to plug in someone else. It doesn't mean the guy you're pulling is a bad player, or a bad person.

Doc yanked Patterson after only 4 minutes after the Bucks jumped out 9-0. JaMychal came in and righted the ship. When Patterson got a few more minutes later on--and he only played 13 total--he got back to even, in fact plus+3. Point being, I watch the running plus/minus totals during the game and Doc's substitutions are almost always supported by the stats.

BTW, J-Myke finished minus-6, Patterson plus+3. And Harkless minus-10! That's why the running totals are so important. It's all about combinations, and unfortunately there are a lot of matchups a lineup with Zubac can't win. There's a reason these 20th century battleships don't see more action.

The corrected totals: Zubac minus-10 in 9 minutes; Harrell plus+5 in 39. Trezz was the only reason we were still in that game. Nothing to indicate minutes for Zubac would be anything but a net negative, as well explained by Q here. The Bucks' attack was aerial, from above. Battleships are sitting ducks.

Lmao
I showed video proof of these situations that proved Zubac wasn’t a liability and still pushing this thing that he brought the team down.

Do you honestly believe watching the game Patterson was a +3 player?

[TheNewEra]

On to the next one it’s done

[esqtvd]

One of the Korver threes was because Zu can't defend out of the paint so he got matched up with Giannis who he couldn't guard when he faces up, Bev who was switched onto Lopez went to double team, Giannis passes to an open Lopez, JaMychal has to rotate on Lopez who passes to an open Korver, boom open three by Korver.

Next three by Korver, Giannis attacking on transition it's obvious he's just gonna blow by Zubac, Harkless goes to help, Giannis gives the ball at the top of the arc to Harkless' man, and an open Korver splashes another three.

The third three by Korver, pretty much a copycat of the previous play, Giannis facing up Zu in semi transition, when he's about to blow by for an open layup, both Harkless and JaMychal go to help, pass to an open three by Korver. With the bonus that this time Ilyasova was wide open at the three opint line as well, so either of them could've made it.

Basketball is a complex game and you can't measure Zubac's defense by how many points the other C scored. That's not to say Zu is terrible or to blame him for this loss or anything, but with this roster configuration, and with a back to back tomorrow where he's gonna start, he played the right amount of minutes imo.

Well done. Sometimes the chemistry just isn't working and you have to plug in someone else. It doesn't mean the guy you're pulling is a bad player, or a bad person.

Doc yanked Patterson after only 4 minutes after the Bucks jumped out 9-0. JaMychal came in and righted the ship. When Patterson got a few more minutes later on--and he only played 13 total--he got back to even, in fact plus+3. Point being, I watch the running plus/minus totals during the game and Doc's substitutions are almost always supported by the stats.

BTW, J-Myke finished minus-6, Patterson plus+3. And Harkless minus-10! That's why the running totals are so important. It's all about combinations, and unfortunately there are a lot of matchups a lineup with Zubac can't win. There's a reason these 20th century battleships don't see more action.

The corrected totals: Zubac minus-10 in 9 minutes; Harrell plus+5 in 39. Trezz was the only reason we were still in that game. Nothing to indicate minutes for Zubac would be anything but a net negative, as well explained by Q here. The Bucks' attack was aerial, from above. Battleships are sitting ducks.

Lmao
I showed video proof of these situations that proved Zubac wasn’t a liability and still pushing this thing that he brought the team down.

Do you honestly believe watching the game Patterson was a +3 player?

I quite agreed when Doc yanked him at the 4 minute mark, put JaMychal in, and we caught them at 16. When Patterson finally got minutes again in the second half, he got into the black and so did we. And still, he only got 13 minutes. His run is done, I think, once PG gets in.

There's an art to coaching, and in basketball, it's all about combinations. What I notice is that when I follow the running plus/minus, Doc's substitutions most always jibe with the numbers. Science supports the art. You can show all the clips you want but we were minus-10 with Zubac on the floor. That's just fact. Any coach who ignores the numbers is gonna get exposed where it counts--on the scoreboard.

[QRich3]

Help defense on Giannis was obviously instructed and insisted on before the game, and you can clearly see that they stress it more when Giannis is facing up Zu. Not gonna argue where Giannis was or wasn't gonna score before he made an assist, cause it's a hypothetical that gets us nowhere, but I don't think you should just blame the help for sagging off in these situations. With a guy like Giannis, you either have to live with him scoring at will in the paint or you have to live with crowding him and leaving guys open. It's clear the instruction was to help aggressively, specially when it was Zubac in front of him. Maybe if we had Kawhi we could've done something similar to what the Raptors did in the ECF last year, and you don't have to help as much.

Anyway, my point wasn't that this is all Zubac's fault, it was that Zubac's strengths and weaknesses allow for certain line-up configurations and don't allow for certain others. You're very happily assuming that if he plays more, the shots Trez missed just go away and we just rebound better, but I'm saying that having him out there presents a different set of problems that don't necessarily make us a better team.

Having a big rim protector like him is more useful in a game like today where we face a bunch of high usage guards that make a living of driving into the paint after a pick'n'roll, than yesterday against a monster with little range surrounded by shooters, that will face you up in the paint and score around the rim at will. Not to mention we needed one of Lou or Trez on the floor at all times cause we didn't have any other credible offensive threats, and playing Zubac big minutes would mean sitting Trez big minutes as well, which we couldn't afford.

I love Zu, but I don't agree with your complaint at all in this particular instance.

They stressed it to a fault at times with everyone. Don’t believe there was any extra priority with Zu because he’s shown he’s a high quality rim protector and help man. You attack the smaller defender like when Harrell was in because the lane becomes more open and physically it’s a better matchup.

As well as I’m not going to argue Zubac was getting beat when I provided evidence that Zu remained in front of Giannis in the situations you brought up. Is no hypothetical needed Zu remained in front of his assignment and forced him into a pass. That’s also my issue with your argument on both of those plays I showed and mentioned we don’t see an aggressive trap or attack by Harkless or Green (Green definitely didn’t come and help aggressively). I still don’t see where you are getting this “because Zubac was on him” situations like the team was flustered it was clearly the plan because he was guarding Giannis multiple possessions and Zu was baiting him to attack. The raptors played the same wall scheme that used Gasol and a bunch of defenders we just did not have the strength of Kawhi on the perimeter to feed him into Zubac like the raptors did with Kawhi and Gasol.


I’m happily saying that when Harrell is still clearly gassed coming off playing the entire 3rd quarter he might need more rest on the bench. I didn’t say Trez shouldn’t play I noted even before the quarter started he’s going to be tired out having to score and as the game grinds down like it did last season he’s not going to be able to defend the rim or snatch rebounds the same. Harrell is a energy big you can’t burn him out with minutes and even more so when he’s putting that much energy into scoring you have to manage the minutes to maximize Zu and Harrell and cover both of their weaknesses.

He was useful in the game last night against a superstar who’s not a noted shooter who you want to be challenged at the rim. It’s the exact reason we had Zubac guard Giannis because we planned to either let him shoot or face the size of our shot blocker and as long as Zubac stayed in front of him in which he did then it’s mission accomplished on his part.

Man Zubac had 8 points in 9 minutes of play I’m not exactly buying we couldn’t rest Trez because we didn’t have another big man that could score. Zubac has been outscoring or matching the points of the rest of starters beside Kawhi so far this season in half the minutes.

heh evidence and proof are really big words that I don't think you provided at all. Zubac is not helping nor protecting the rim in these instances, he is directly matched up with a much faster player driving to the rim, he has his arms down and makes no contact, so saying he forces him into a pass is a stretch. The team just sends 2-3 men against him, which they were not doing for the most part before that, and Giannis makes the correct read and passes to the open man. We clearly don't see these plays the same way.

All of Zu's points yesterday came from a pick'n'roll where the Bucks trapped the ballhandler and Zu got an open dunk/layup under the rim. It's the correct play by him, but I don't think you can look at that and say he can be the same offensive threat as Trez, who was facing up, shooting floaters, even running fast breaks by himself. It should be pretty evident, but you tend to obsess with some guys and not want to see their flaws in this case, or their rights in the case of other guys, like Patterson. Everyone has their own preferences, but I just can't agree with you in this case.

[TheNewEra]

Help defense on Giannis was obviously instructed and insisted on before the game, and you can clearly see that they stress it more when Giannis is facing up Zu. Not gonna argue where Giannis was or wasn't gonna score before he made an assist, cause it's a hypothetical that gets us nowhere, but I don't think you should just blame the help for sagging off in these situations. With a guy like Giannis, you either have to live with him scoring at will in the paint or you have to live with crowding him and leaving guys open. It's clear the instruction was to help aggressively, specially when it was Zubac in front of him. Maybe if we had Kawhi we could've done something similar to what the Raptors did in the ECF last year, and you don't have to help as much.

Anyway, my point wasn't that this is all Zubac's fault, it was that Zubac's strengths and weaknesses allow for certain line-up configurations and don't allow for certain others. You're very happily assuming that if he plays more, the shots Trez missed just go away and we just rebound better, but I'm saying that having him out there presents a different set of problems that don't necessarily make us a better team.

Having a big rim protector like him is more useful in a game like today where we face a bunch of high usage guards that make a living of driving into the paint after a pick'n'roll, than yesterday against a monster with little range surrounded by shooters, that will face you up in the paint and score around the rim at will. Not to mention we needed one of Lou or Trez on the floor at all times cause we didn't have any other credible offensive threats, and playing Zubac big minutes would mean sitting Trez big minutes as well, which we couldn't afford.

I love Zu, but I don't agree with your complaint at all in this particular instance.

They stressed it to a fault at times with everyone. Don’t believe there was any extra priority with Zu because he’s shown he’s a high quality rim protector and help man. You attack the smaller defender like when Harrell was in because the lane becomes more open and physically it’s a better matchup.

As well as I’m not going to argue Zubac was getting beat when I provided evidence that Zu remained in front of Giannis in the situations you brought up. Is no hypothetical needed Zu remained in front of his assignment and forced him into a pass. That’s also my issue with your argument on both of those plays I showed and mentioned we don’t see an aggressive trap or attack by Harkless or Green (Green definitely didn’t come and help aggressively). I still don’t see where you are getting this “because Zubac was on him” situations like the team was flustered it was clearly the plan because he was guarding Giannis multiple possessions and Zu was baiting him to attack. The raptors played the same wall scheme that used Gasol and a bunch of defenders we just did not have the strength of Kawhi on the perimeter to feed him into Zubac like the raptors did with Kawhi and Gasol.


I’m happily saying that when Harrell is still clearly gassed coming off playing the entire 3rd quarter he might need more rest on the bench. I didn’t say Trez shouldn’t play I noted even before the quarter started he’s going to be tired out having to score and as the game grinds down like it did last season he’s not going to be able to defend the rim or snatch rebounds the same. Harrell is a energy big you can’t burn him out with minutes and even more so when he’s putting that much energy into scoring you have to manage the minutes to maximize Zu and Harrell and cover both of their weaknesses.

He was useful in the game last night against a superstar who’s not a noted shooter who you want to be challenged at the rim. It’s the exact reason we had Zubac guard Giannis because we planned to either let him shoot or face the size of our shot blocker and as long as Zubac stayed in front of him in which he did then it’s mission accomplished on his part.

Man Zubac had 8 points in 9 minutes of play I’m not exactly buying we couldn’t rest Trez because we didn’t have another big man that could score. Zubac has been outscoring or matching the points of the rest of starters beside Kawhi so far this season in half the minutes.

heh evidence and proof are really big words that I don't think you provided at all. Zubac is not helping nor protecting the rim in these instances, he is directly matched up with a much faster player driving to the rim, he has his arms down and makes no contact, so saying he forces him into a pass is a stretch. The team just sends 2-3 men against him, which they were not doing for the most part before that, and Giannis makes the correct read and passes to the open man. We clearly don't see these plays the same way.

All of Zu's points yesterday came from a pick'n'roll where the Bucks trapped the ballhandler and Zu got an open dunk/layup under the rim. It's the correct play by him, but I don't think you can look at that and say he can be the same offensive threat as Trez, who was facing up, shooting floaters, even running fast breaks by himself. It should be pretty evident, but you tend to obsess with some guys and not want to see their flaws in this case, or their rights in the case of other guys, like Patterson. Everyone has their own preferences, but I just can't agree with you in this case.

He’s not protecting the rim when he’s defending Giannis who’s primary scoring comes from attacking ?? Come on now this is a reach what’s the point of sagging off Giannis if it’s not to protect the rim from his attacks using his long strides and length? His arms are out but low because you don’t want to be fully extended because if he makes a move fast enough he will try to get a foul call for reaching in. You don’t make contact until Greek goes up with the ball that’s asking for a superstar foul call bumping him on the perimeter and you want him to shoot the mid and 3 anyway. We didn’t send 2 or 3 men in these plays there was no aggressive trap when Zubac was guarding him and only Harkless was caught completely out of position and even then he came no where close to throwing a strong close on Greek.


Never stated he had to score like Trez he just has to provide scoring so Trez can rest. Pick and roll action is still a big part of the game and if he’s scoring on it, he’s hitting his free throws and gets you a bucket on a putback offensive rebound you find him some minutes. This isn’t about Trez not playing it’s about managing both so you can get the most out of them game to game. Trez looked tired the entire 4th. Nobody said Zubac was flawless but 9 minutes for the defensive presence and hustling to get buckets does not add up.

Patterson is a buyout who’s been in exile for 2 years he shouldn’t have rights lol

[TheNewEra]

Well done. Sometimes the chemistry just isn't working and you have to plug in someone else. It doesn't mean the guy you're pulling is a bad player, or a bad person.

Doc yanked Patterson after only 4 minutes after the Bucks jumped out 9-0. JaMychal came in and righted the ship. When Patterson got a few more minutes later on--and he only played 13 total--he got back to even, in fact plus+3. Point being, I watch the running plus/minus totals during the game and Doc's substitutions are almost always supported by the stats.

BTW, J-Myke finished minus-6, Patterson plus+3. And Harkless minus-10! That's why the running totals are so important. It's all about combinations, and unfortunately there are a lot of matchups a lineup with Zubac can't win. There's a reason these 20th century battleships don't see more action.

The corrected totals: Zubac minus-10 in 9 minutes; Harrell plus+5 in 39. Trezz was the only reason we were still in that game. Nothing to indicate minutes for Zubac would be anything but a net negative, as well explained by Q here. The Bucks' attack was aerial, from above. Battleships are sitting ducks.

Lmao
I showed video proof of these situations that proved Zubac wasn’t a liability and still pushing this thing that he brought the team down.

Do you honestly believe watching the game Patterson was a +3 player?

I quite agreed when Doc yanked him at the 4 minute mark, put JaMychal in, and we caught them at 16. When Patterson finally got minutes again in the second half, he got into the black and so did we. And still, he only got 13 minutes. His run is done, I think, once PG gets in.

There's an art to coaching, and in basketball, it's all about combinations. What I notice is that when I follow the running plus/minus, Doc's substitutions most always jibe with the numbers. Science supports the art. You can show all the clips you want but we were minus-10 with Zubac on the floor. That's just fact. Any coach who ignores the numbers is gonna get exposed where it counts--on the scoreboard.

I personally don’t believe Doc will put George or Leonard at the 4 but Green may start. Beside the dunk he really was quiet but broke even by association in my opinion.

The visual of the game helps with those +\- if I’m contesting shots or get a block and you turn the ball over and score that’s still a penalty on the player. Plays when George Hill shot 3s and defenders just watched him and we didn’t hit shots should be taken into account. It’s whatever they should beat the Blazers

[Yogatti]

+/- is not an accurate stat when comes to a players impact. Theres context to it and just because Zubac had -9 doesn't mean he played bad. Heck Zubac barely even played this game. We need rebounding, we need rim protection and get none of that with Trez at the end of the game.

What we do get is an out of gas Trez at the 4th quarter who can't make his free throws, no energy to grab rebounds against a bunch of 7 footers on the Bucks team, all because Doc Rivers is a **** idiot

[esqtvd]

I personally don’t believe Doc will put George or Leonard at the 4 but Green may start. Beside the dunk he really was quiet but broke even by association in my opinion.

The visual of the game helps with those +\- if I’m contesting shots or get a block and you turn the ball over and score that’s still a penalty on the player. Plays when George Hill shot 3s and defenders just watched him and we didn’t hit shots should be taken into account. It’s whatever they should beat the Blazers

I use the plus/minus to doublecheck what I think I'm seeing. When we fell behind 9-0 on 0-8 shooting and 4 TOs, a change had to be made, even arbitrarily. JaMychal for Patterson was a logical choice, and it worked.

Going forward, the starting lineup still seems contingent on the matchups. If the opps start a slow-moving 7-2 battleship, Zubac is the only intelligent counter. As for who surrounds Kawhi and PG, at the moment Shamet's not even an option, unless last night was the start of a return to expected form. That leaves Bev and J-Myke, although don't count out Doc giving Harkless some burn as a starter to see what happens.

Combinations are fragile, and at this point it's pure trial-and-error.


And yeah, we certainly should beat the Blazers, who are scrambling. It'll be interesting to see how the Clippers respond to a noble but exhausting effort vs the Bucks. That part is trial and error too. Trezz in particular is being given every chance to test his wings: Is he a 30+ mpg guy, or just a quick-energy up-or-down 20-25 minute guy?