Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[Ducklett]

You always refer to ppg but don't mention that Isaac has played whole quarters without touching the ball. Probably 25% of his offense in the last game was from his defense. He had 3 or 4 breakaway steals.

The Magic have to run plays now for the guys that are getting paid so they can retain value. When they finally hand off the team to the young guys his numbers are going to go way up.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Did ever occurred to you that they don't run plays for him because they know he can't do them properly or with high efficiency? Why would coaches have agenda ? It's in their best interest to win games, and they look for best solutions to do it, and they see that players 3 times a day so they know the best. Even worst coaches ( not you Earl Watson and Randy Wittman) know about basketball waaaay more than us, fans.
Posters CRIED for Gordon to be "finisher" and take late game shots for 5 years. This year every time when he has decision to make in 4th quater, it's turnover. Witch means fans crying was unjustified and irrational for half of decade. ofc nobody will admit "sure i was wrong about him last 5 years" but you know it's true.

In your mind why is everyone always "crying" though. Enough of that already.

We aren't Vuc, so we get mean Pepe

[pepe1991]

You always refer to ppg but don't mention that Isaac has played whole quarters without touching the ball. Probably 25% of his offense in the last game was from his defense. He had 3 or 4 breakaway steals.

The Magic have to run plays now for the guys that are getting paid so they can retain value. When they finally hand off the team to the young guys his numbers are going to go way up.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Did ever occurred to you that they don't run plays for him because they know he can't do them properly or with high efficiency? Why would coaches have agenda ? It's in their best interest to win games, and they look for best solutions to do it, and they see that players 3 times a day so they know the best. Even worst coaches ( not you Earl Watson and Randy Wittman) know about basketball waaaay more than us, fans.
Posters CRIED for Gordon to be "finisher" and take late game shots for 5 years. This year every time when he has decision to make in 4th quater, it's turnover. Witch means fans crying was unjustified and irrational for half of decade. ofc nobody will admit "sure i was wrong about him last 5 years" but you know it's true.

In your mind why is everyone always "crying" though. Enough of that already.

Whine, moean, weeping ... whatever. Gordon is best example of a player that had every excuse in universe why he is not great by his fans. And ofc, it was never his fault. Always some evil outside force that kept him from stardom.

When Vogel arived thread" Vogel to use Gordon like Paul George" had " Can Gordon become a PAul George? " question in first post.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1468188&hilit=aaron+gordon+superstar

there is thread if you bother to read.

During pool about trading him in 2017, out of 103 votes 73 votes were against any idea of trading him ,with 23 voting for "No: he is a future All Star and a key, unlovable asset for Orlando." That's 1/3 of posters beliving in allstar potential.

And countless amount of posts how he is future star.

Half of posts here are over a top and not grounded in reality. Most of debates here are because of it.

[PrimeThyme]

People have to remember how low Pepe is on Isaac. I mean I had debates with him this summer over whether Isaac's ceiling was higher then Aminu's or Jerami Grants. Isaac is a special player, but Pepe doesn't value what he brings to the table for this team.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

[instagram

what did i just witness.. is that free flowing basketball with shooters and cutting? no no no I want to see the ball thrown into the post then back out and dribbled like hell for 20 seconds then a weak attempt to get into the lane and it MUST end with a fadeaway 3

[j-ragg]

Read on Twitter

Preach

[Blue_and_Whte]

Watch on YouTube

Carlisle talks about Isaac around the 1:56 mark. Says he's one of the most improved players he's seen and is a major factor on both ends.

damn..I felt like I got in trouble when he asked that dude if he was texting...

[MartinsIzAfraud]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28021786/ten-nba-things-like-including-luka-doncic-trickery

9. Orlando's wretched offense
Orlando's offense is a merry-go-round to nowhere. It looks pleasing. Passes are made. Screens are set. The ball is on one side of the floor, and then it is on the other. The Magic actually get into the paint -- only Miami averages more paint touches -- but you never get the sense they have punctured the defense.

I suspect they brush the fringes of the paint a lot, and enter and exit it without doing anything dangerous.

Orlando is dead last in points per possession by a laughable margin. That is a little fluky. The Magic are shooting 27% from deep; they will make more shots.

But some of this impotence appears endemic. The Magic ranked 22nd in points per possession last season. They struggle to generate shots at the rim; they rank about average this season, a huge step up. Only two teams attempt fewer corner 3s. And (stop me if you've heard this for, like, the past seven seasons) they rarely get to the foul line.

They have too many power forwards, and not enough shooters and playmakers. Aaron Gordon has no defined role. D.J. Augustin has predictably regressed after an outlier season. Nikola Vucevic settles for flip shots.

Markelle Fultz still can't shoot; defenders go under every Fultz-Vucevic pick-and-roll, meaning Vucevic's man can stay home -- neutering his pick-and-pop looks.

I'm not even sure what the solution is. More fast breaks would help, especially with Fultz starting. (His promotion over Augustin felt a little premature.) That has not been their style, and they don't force many turnovers. Maybe they could run more basic spread pick-and-roll, and give both Gordon and Jonathan Isaac chances to work as rim-runners while Vucevic spaces the floor. They should avoid playing Al-Farouq Aminu, Isaac and Mo Bamba together.

They don't really have the personnel to play smaller. They could try more minutes with three of Augustin/Fultz/Evan Fournier/Terrence Ross on the floor, but that isn't moving the needle. Maybe they could lean even more on Vucevic post-ups against some opponents?

I dunno. But this is a one-way team, and one-way teams can't win big

We ALL said this for the last 2 years.... where is the offense going to come from?

[MagicFan101]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

[thelead]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

Because Vuc is the better playmaking big and is a better shooter... he just needs to get his head out of his ...

What we should be doing more of is getting JI to grab rebounds and push the ball up the court himself when guarded by a big.

[GelbeWand09]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

In the Dallas game in the 4th, he was again free for the left corner 3, which he hits at 42%, but was again looked off. I can understand not forcing Iso's for him at this stage, but they treat him like he shoots 3's like Fultz & ignore him too many times (Evan, DJ...)

[OrlChamps2030]

They have too many power forwards, and not enough shooters and playmakers.

Shocking, ground breaking news... who saw this coming..

[pepe1991]

People have to remember how low Pepe is on Isaac. I mean I had debates with him this summer over whether Isaac's ceiling was higher then Aminu's or Jerami Grants. Isaac is a special player, but Pepe doesn't value what he brings to the table for this team.

Defense. That's his value.
I'm pretty confident i have never said one bad word about his defense.
ON offense it's whole different story.

Off 70 FGA he took, 48 were with 0 dribbles.
21 - 48 overall, 11-28 for 3

9 shots with one dribble
3-9 overall , 0-1 for 3


10 shots with 2 dribbles
6-10 overall , 0-1 for 3

He attemped grand total of 1 shot with more than two dribbles.

In 50 out of 70 FGA he took he was either open or wide open.

So you get a picture , teams don't defend him.

You have to understand that i don't care about being right or wrong, i'm observing player for what he is today and compare it what's natural curve of development and learning for basketball player in nba. I did same with Hezonja, Dipo, Gordon, Payton.... and based on overwhelming evidence i base personal opinion. In most cases it gives me objective expetations from a player, in some cases i end up being dead wrong ( Trae Young ). But in lot of cases being objective leads to conclusions like : Payton isn't starter way before 95% of a board wanted to admit it. Or for what i can tell already, Knox isn't nba starter and Reddish will flop hard (called it 10 months ago ).

I find it ridiculous that fans talk about player who's rookie contract is up through "potential" viewpoint. Vast majority of nba players already play basketball for 10-13 years BEFORE they arive in nba. And once they get used to pace of a nba game, lenght,agility and speed of other players and adjust to 3 point line, you can grasp what they can be.

Imo best way to ulitize Isaac on offense more is to play him as pick&roll screener, have him spot up in corner and play him at PF 100% time. ( again, something i said about him not being SF , 2 and half years ago, again, not because i cared about arguing posters, since PennytoShaq was super vocal about him being SF ) .

After all, my comparison for him was Ibaka from day one....

[PrimeThyme]

It's just sad that our 2-6 record and our fundamentally awful offense overshadows what Isaac has done so far and will do going forward. Isaac has been one of the most impactful players in the league so far yet the only thing national media will see is how bad of an offense we are and our mediocre record.

Just like last season when despite us having a top 10 defense Isaac couldnt even get a single vote for an all-defensive team.

[Bensational]

I'd like to see some more Fultz/Isaac and Fultz/AG PnRs, and more aggressive lane running from both AG and Isaac when Fultz is running point. That alley in the 1st quarter from Fultz to AG is something we haven't seen in a long time from AG.

It's not a play you can run all night, because Dallas had adapted by halftime and seemed to take that out of action by the 2nd half. But the vertical ability of both of those guys allows them another area of space that they can get open on those plays, whereas Vuc just isn't a vertical threat.

I'd also like to see Isaac get some more of this midrange elbow curls that Fournier has run for him, because that shot looks to be falling for him more (though I haven't checked the numbers so someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Throw some more of those in to reward the kid for basically being our entire defense. He's earned them, make or miss, simply by the amount of shots he takes away from the other team.

[MagicFan101]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

Because Vuc is the better playmaking big and is a better shooter... he just needs to get his head out of his ...

What we should be doing more of is getting JI to grab rebounds and push the ball up the court himself when guarded by a big.

Again, I’m not suggesting he be THE focal point and replace Vuc as our offensive anchor but he is completely forgotten in our offense at times. When he’s open in the corner, he should be a top option yet that just doesn’t seem to click for the rest of the guys on the court.

[MagicFan101]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

Exactly. This is what I am talking about; not replacing Vuc in our offense.
In the Dallas game in the 4th, he was again free for the left corner 3, which he hits at 42%, but was again looked off. I can understand not forcing Iso's for him at this stage, but they treat him like he shoots 3's like Fultz & ignore him too many times (Evan, DJ...)

[GelbeWand09]

I'd like to see some more Fultz/Isaac and Fultz/AG PnRs, and more aggressive lane running from both AG and Isaac when Fultz is running point. That alley in the 1st quarter from Fultz to AG is something we haven't seen in a long time from AG.

It's not a play you can run all night, because Dallas had adapted by halftime and seemed to take that out of action by the 2nd half. But the vertical ability of both of those guys allows them another area of space that they can get open on those plays, whereas Vuc just isn't a vertical threat.

I'd also like to see Isaac get some more of this midrange elbow curls that Fournier has run for him, because that shot looks to be falling for him more (though I haven't checked the numbers so someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Throw some more of those in to reward the kid for basically being our entire defense. He's earned them, make or miss, simply by the amount of shots he takes away from the other team.

Yea in the last summer leaque, when he was the main focus, this was his go to move too. He is really comfortable in those situations. I'm pretty sure he got the potential, to hit that midrange shot later in his career at elite %. Same goes for the corner 3's. His FT shooting from this range is a good indicator too.
On long 3's he got a different shooting motion and doesnt work as good.

[Bensational]

FUN STAT

Since Fultz became our starter, he's averaging 54.5% on drives, on 3.7 attempts, off 8 drives a game. That's good for 27th in the league amongst starters.

Looks like we finally have a player who can break down a defense and get to the rim and get a bucket for us.

The concerns about his 3pt shooting is pointless right now. His comfort there will come back to him as his confidence in scoring comes back. Forcing him to jack 3's (even if open) whilst he's uncomfortable with the shot is just a recipe to undermine his confidence in scoring from other areas. Give him half a season of getting into the paint and getting shots that come easy to him, and I have no doubt he'll be launching 3's by the end of the season.

[VFX]

Spoiler:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28021786/ten-nba-things-like-including-luka-doncic-trickery

9. Orlando's wretched offense
Orlando's offense is a merry-go-round to nowhere. It looks pleasing. Passes are made. Screens are set. The ball is on one side of the floor, and then it is on the other. The Magic actually get into the paint -- only Miami averages more paint touches -- but you never get the sense they have punctured the defense.

I suspect they brush the fringes of the paint a lot, and enter and exit it without doing anything dangerous.

Orlando is dead last in points per possession by a laughable margin. That is a little fluky. The Magic are shooting 27% from deep; they will make more shots.

But some of this impotence appears endemic. The Magic ranked 22nd in points per possession last season. They struggle to generate shots at the rim; they rank about average this season, a huge step up. Only two teams attempt fewer corner 3s. And (stop me if you've heard this for, like, the past seven seasons) they rarely get to the foul line.

They have too many power forwards, and not enough shooters and playmakers. Aaron Gordon has no defined role. D.J. Augustin has predictably regressed after an outlier season. Nikola Vucevic settles for flip shots.

Markelle Fultz still can't shoot; defenders go under every Fultz-Vucevic pick-and-roll, meaning Vucevic's man can stay home -- neutering his pick-and-pop looks.

I'm not even sure what the solution is. More fast breaks would help, especially with Fultz starting. (His promotion over Augustin felt a little premature.) That has not been their style, and they don't force many turnovers. Maybe they could run more basic spread pick-and-roll, and give both Gordon and Jonathan Isaac chances to work as rim-runners while Vucevic spaces the floor. They should avoid playing Al-Farouq Aminu, Isaac and Mo Bamba together.

They don't really have the personnel to play smaller. They could try more minutes with three of Augustin/Fultz/Evan Fournier/Terrence Ross on the floor, but that isn't moving the needle. Maybe they could lean even more on Vucevic post-ups against some opponents?

I dunno. But this is a one-way team, and one-way teams can't win big

We ALL said this for the last 2 years.... where is the offense going to come from?

Uh oh... it looks like some of the media have finally figured out that the FO haven’t built a competitive roster since being hired.

[OrlandO]

I’ll accuse myself of being a biased homer here and ask a critic to explain why we should NOT try an run more of the offense through Isaac.

To be clear, I said more not all. Clearly he is not an elite creator or iso guy. However, go and look at his shooting % at almost every level this year compared to the past two years. It’s very early so the sample is small. Still, even in the games where he is doing well it seems he only gets a shot off an offensive rebound or as the 4th option pass.

Why aren’t we forcing more opportunities for him given everything else is working so poorly?

Because Vuc is the better playmaking big and is a better shooter... he just needs to get his head out of his ...

What we should be doing more of is getting JI to grab rebounds and push the ball up the court himself when guarded by a big.

Again, I’m not suggesting he be THE focal point and replace Vuc as our offensive anchor but he is completely forgotten in our offense at times. When he’s open in the corner, he should be a top option yet that just doesn’t seem to click for the rest of the guys on the court.

Seems Vuc is the only one that consistently passes to JI when he's open. Gordon and Fournier are more concerned with taking their own shot. I'm sure Fultz would pass to JI more if we took the ball out of Gordon and Fournier's hands some. Hopefully Cliff drops the hammer soon and at least tells Gordon to look to pass more and Fournier to play off ball more like we saw in the second half of last season. Fournier dribbled/forced less and we did more playmaking through Vuc in the last game, so maybe Cliff is already on it?

I'm ok with passing to JI in the flow of offense, especially if he is making his shots, but I'm not concerned with forcing too much offense through him right now. I prefer him focusing and maximizing himself on defense where he's able to make elite level impact.