1995 Hakeem Olajuwon vs 2012 LeBron James.

[euroleague]

The 2012 lockout obviously kept lbj fresh.

I have to go Hakeem. All time great on both ends. LBJ was better offensively, but Hakeem did work on near peak Shaq on the defensive end, and dominated DRob on both ends.

Lbj didn’t replicate what Hakeem did vs Paul George or Durant. Wade was arguably better than Drexler in the chosen seasons, so I’d have Hakeem’s team very slightly better without Bosh.... but, the Rockets annihilated far better competition than the Heat struggled with when Bosh was gone.

Lbj did dominate when it counted, but in total I’d have Hakeem as clearly better and I’d consider 17/18 seasons of lbj as well (didn’t see 16)

I don't mind you picking Hakeem here and think its fairly close but I wouldn't say that was near peak Shaq and he also put up 28/13/6 on 60% shooting in that finals on Hakeem.

Check the turnovers

That was near peak, he just didn’t have Phil Jackson and easy center opponents. We can’t compare his scoring in the 90s with 00s - his athleticism was definitely at its peak in 95. In 99 and 98 he was worse than 95.

I think Shaq was near his peak 94-04, and coaching/team composition affected him. His longevity was elite, there’s a reason he’s so high in career points scored

[G35]

I take 95 Hakeem. As for the tougher conference, that’s not even a debate.

What he provided on the defensive end is paralleled by only Russell and he did as much of a carry job as anyone as well.

He did everything that you could ask of a center. Lebron has always had a large gap in his game which prevented him from winning many close games - the ability to consistently hit midrange and outside shots.

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

[Bidofo]

The 2012 lockout obviously kept lbj fresh.

Do you expect anyone to buy this claim? For a season that even the younger posters here have lived through? League wide ORTG was wayyy down compared to the nearby years before and after, and as someone stated this was the season where every team had to deal with one back-to-back-to-back. The topic of rest, and lack thereof, was huge throughout the season. But you're going to paint it as a positive?

[Bidofo]

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

Calling the Celtics over the hill haha, I expected nothing less.

It is funny how we judge a players' playoff performance by their offensive stats more often than not, and then use an overall team's strength as a barometer for how tough the competition is. The logical flaw is obvious, but in order to make LeBron's competition look worse, I suppose it is ignored? Instead of some superficial listing of names (which you couldn't even bother getting right), I think it would help more to look at the defenses they faced. I'll include LeBron's and Hakeem's teams' respective ORTGs too, relative to opponent RS DRTG.

1995 Hakeem:
vs -2.6 Jazz: +14.9
vs +2.1 Suns (the second worst defense to make the playoffs): +5.5
vs -2.9 Spurs: +5.2
vs -0.5 Magic: +9.3

2012 LeBron:
vs -3.6 Knicks: +11.9
vs -1.5 Pacers: +3.5
vs -6.4 Celtics: +10.7
vs -1.4 Thunder: +11.9

Weighted Average
Hakeem: vs -0.8 DRTG and +8.2 offense
LeBron: vs -3.4 DRTG and +9.3 offense

Box Stats
Hakeem: 30.5 points, 4.1 assists per 75, +1.7% rTS, 26.7 PER, .143 WS/48, 110 ORTG (+1.7)
LeBron: 29 points, 5.4 assists per 75, +4.9% rTS, 30.3 PER, .284 WS/48, 116 ORTG (+11.4)

So at the very least, LeBron was facing tougher defenses, and his box score stats come out prettier. Coincidentally he faced a better defensive team in each respective round than Hakeem as well. I don't think looking at the whole team's performance is perfect, but it does support my belief that perimeter players are better offensive players and leads in general. And when you look at their teammates, I think Hakeem had a better cast tbh. Drexler was amazing, all the guards shot the lights out, and it was a pretty deep team (reflected in the well distributed WS). Credit should of course be given to Hakeem for drawing all that attention and finding his guys, his passing was at his best this year I'd say...and yet they still come short of LeBron's team. Not to mention LeBron was drawing similar attention, had a number 2 option who didn't really shoot too well, and had Bosh missing 9 total games (crazy that they had a +10.7 offense on the number one defense with only 3 games of Bosh).

Now what made Hakeem's opponents better competition was that those teams were all good offensively as well. The same cannot be said for the 2012 competition. And ironically, Hakeem's relatively poor play in the RS that cost them HCA is turned into a boost in this comparison.

Hakeem would need to catch up on defense, and I think he does a pretty good job at doing that (even though this was imo one of LeBron's better defensive postseasons); the comparison is very close. But if you're someone who is looking at LeBron's ppg and apg and whatever as a measure of his performance, and then talking about conference disparity without looking at the defenses that each guy faced, you're doing it wrong.

[Bidofo]

He did everything that you could ask of a center. Lebron has always had a large gap in his game which prevented him from winning many close games - the ability to consistently hit midrange and outside shots.

Just had to throw this in there right what does this have anything to do with the 2012 playoffs in particular? Game 6 against Celtics ring a bell? And then he dominated the Thunder in the post, how come his lack of jump shoot didn't stop him from winning it 4-1?

[Colbinii]

He did everything that you could ask of a center. Lebron has always had a large gap in his game which prevented him from winning many close games - the ability to consistently hit midrange and outside shots.

What's LeBron's Record in close playoff games?

[toodles23]

He did everything that you could ask of a center. Lebron has always had a large gap in his game which prevented him from winning many close games - the ability to consistently hit midrange and outside shots.

What's LeBron's Record in close playoff games?

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

[Colbinii]

He did everything that you could ask of a center. Lebron has always had a large gap in his game which prevented him from winning many close games - the ability to consistently hit midrange and outside shots.

What's LeBron's Record in close playoff games?

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

[bledredwine]

What's LeBron's Record in close playoff games?

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

[toodles23]

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

I agree that your posts generally aren't.

[Colbinii]

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

I'd rather have my comments fall into that sector instead of the "Not worth a reply" sector.

[liamliam1234]

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

Your inability to offer a decent or intelligent reply is not a reflection on them.

But such is the curse of blind stanning.

[Sublime187]

Lebron has the most playoff game winners in NBA history but also can’t ever win close games

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

Translation: I do not have any retort so let's start attacking the posters!! Classic...

It is fine get your opinion out there but back it up with actual facts. This is not a forum of 2 year olds (well mostly I guess) that will just believe everything you say at face value. Especially considering your track record...

[bledredwine]

Sounds like he just got lucky a lot of times.

Have you guys watched the last few years of finals?

Really stupid comments, honestly. I’m sorry to be abrasive, but they’re not even worthy of a decent reply.

Your inability to offer a decent or intelligent reply is not a reflection on them.

But such is the curse of blind stanning.

I see it’s the usual suspects. All three of you contribute gut emotional reactions most of the time. That said, at least Colbini’s improved.

With the accumulation of all of your reactions to my one post (which is also supported in last 5 second shot stats, by the way), you guys made not a single point regarding clutch midrange shooting, which is exactly what I was talking about.

Lebron has always had a shaky midrange game. Is this honestly news to any of you?

1. Remember?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2603478-lebron-james-has-been-nbas-worst-shooter-outside-paint-during-2015-16-season.amp.html

2. Lebron’s terrible last shot clutch stats, verifiable by b-ball reference. If you really want to go down that rabbit hole again, we can.

3. Getting ass kicked in the clutch consistently by Durant. 2 years in a row of being outscored and outplayed in the clutch. Out of their three series in the finals, Lebron has yet to outscored him once. But we know that Durant is a way the hell better shooter than Lebron. Even you three know this.

4. 2011, where the paint was well-defended and he had no midrange game.

5. Popovic literally leaving Lebron wide open from midrange as a strategy in the finals.

6. The finals where Lebron shot a crappy .397 FG%, mostly because he took more midrange shots and volume.

7. His crap freethrow percentage.... CAREER numbers.

All of these are a testament and result of his shaky shooting game




But the three of you will still pretend that he’s perfect

[Dr Spaceman]

Bledredwine, you make verifiably false statements on this forum every single day. Like, literal facts that are easy to google. I don’t even care about the content of your posts, you have 0 right to mock others for their posts or condescendingly tell people they’ve “improved”.

[liamliam1234]

It will also never stop being hilarious when blithering Jordan/Kobe/Curry/Kawhi stans, who openly and routinely manufacture acontextual and dishonest narratives (weird how Durant’s scoring exploded in efficiency next to Curry after being pretty middling in 2014 and 2016 ) to attack Lebron, accuse everyone else of bias. It is top tier projection, and more often than not, as it is here, comically off-base.

In 2012, the three games you could claim were close were a 9-point Thunder win, a 6-point Heat win, and a 4-point Heat win.

In 2013, the arguable close games were a 10-point Spurs win, a 7-point Heat win, a 4-point Spurs win, and a 3-point Heat win. In the 2014 rematch Lebron won the only close game of the series.

In 2015, with a crippled Cavaliers team (sorry, I forgot, that team was so good that he killed them by trying to score too much ), Lebron lost by eight points in overtime, won by two points, won by five points, and lost by eight points in a game J.R. made look semi-close right at the end. In the 2016 rematch, he again won the only close game.

But because he could not close out close games against the “greatest roster ever assembled”, one of which was despite putting up the best all-around performance in Finals history before J.R. forgot the score and deliberately locked him out, he is bad in close games. From 2012-2016, his record in Finals games decided by seven points or fewer was 8-1. But yes, terrible in close games.

You have absolutely zero credibility when it comes to Lebron, but here you are accusing me of being one of his three most biased stans. Being one of the three most likely to call out your bull does not make me biased, but you are too utterly deluded to see the difference.

Stop tying your sense of self to a basketball player. If that is too much to ask and you can only make yourself feel better about your favourite player by ranting like a lunatic online, migrate over to the general board; their standards of discourse are typically a lot lower.

[bledredwine]

Bledredwine, you make verifiably false statements on this forum every single day. Like, literal facts that are easy to google. I don’t even care about the content of your posts, you have 0 right to mock others for their posts or condescendingly tell people they’ve “improved”.

Go ahead and give me examples.

And for the record, as I made my post, I actually thought “and that other poster, dr spaceman. I wonder why he hasn’t commented”

All I did is critique Lebron’s clutch/midrange game, and you guys got offended. Thats too funny.

I didn’t imply the Colbini comment condescendingly, even if it came across to you that way. Though he is in the pool of posters who defends almost any critique of Lebron, he’s also been making plenty of quality posts.

Once again, this is a huge waste of time. You guys have pretty much killed the thread with a defensive mentality to both a valid and I would think, obvious point. I’m not replying to these particular posters in this thread, so feel free to have your last say. But I prefer talking basketball and not drama with those that are easily offended.

[70sFan]

Sure, James has inconsistent midrange game throughout his career, but he's as clutch as anyone. Since 2011 he basically never underperformed in playoffs, even in realtively weak 2013 finals he completely dominated last 2 games.

No player is perfect, but there aren't many players that are more proven at the highest level than James.

[bledredwine]

Sure, James has inconsistent midrange game throughout his career, but he's as clutch as anyone. Since 2011 he basically never underperformed in playoffs, even in realtively weak 2013 finals he completely dominated last 2 games.

No player is perfect, but there aren't many players that are more proven at the highest level than James.

James is one of the most clutch players, period, so long as he can drive to the rim. When it comes to close games with tough defense, or last possession shots, I haven’t seen that from him as much. There’s last (10 second?) shot data which supports this observation as well. I still would say that a reliable midrange game is what has prevented him from being an all-time clutch player.

If you are to analyze this Durant and Lebron matchups, where the games were down to the wire, what would you say are the reasons for Lebron’s reluctance to score and Durant’s seeming ease? That’s the power of midrange efficiency/volume in the clutch.

It’s less reliable to want teammates to score in clutch situations where you are the best scorer on the team, but I would say there’s good reason that Lebron often defers, aside from the fact that he’s a team player. It’s the lack of confidence in that midrange game. Just as his free throw percentage is inconsistent, so can be his midrange game, which is a valuable tool to clutch scoring/consistency and energy efficiency.

And wouldn’t you agree that the most clutch players of their time were great midrange shooters? Durant, Jordan, Dirk, Bird, Miller, prime Melo, and so on? I can think of very few exceptions- namely Wade and Lebron, and they are the two who aren’t the players I’d least trust to take the game winning shots.

Midrange is why Harden and Giannis have struggled in the playoffs. At times, Lebron’s midrange game looks brilliant (50 point outburst game 1 of the GS series), but at others, it’s inconsistent.

[70sFan]

Last 10 seconds is not that important when you evaluate players though, 47 minutes before that is more important. Besides, James has many game winners. Kobe is also known for having terrible clutch stats and he was great midrange shooter. It's not that simple, sorry but I can't agree.

Playing well under huge pressure is "clutch" for me. James did that in 2012, 2013, 2016, 2018. He did enough to call him great "clutch" player.