1969 Bill Russell vs 1998 Michael Jordan

[70sFan]

Both in their last (meaningful) seasons, both 34 years old and both won championship. Russell faced tougher comptition in playoffs, while Jordan had harder RS with a lot of injuries in Chicago.

Who do you think had more inpressive season?
Who do you think was better?

Bonus question: who had better supporting cast?

[Dr Spaceman]

A big factor to consider here is Bill Russell coached his team as well as being the star. Additionally, I believe he was the first black coach in basketball (perhaps the first in professional sports?) which brings numerous other things for him to deal with.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above tho, I don’t have time to google right now.

[70sFan]

A big factor to consider here is Bill Russell coached his team as well as being the star. Additionally, I believe he was the first black coach in basketball (perhaps the first in professional sports?) which brings numerous other things for him to deal with.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above tho, I don’t have time to google right now.

Not sure about all pro sports, but as far as know he was the first black basketball coach.

[penbeast0]

I tend to believe Russell was a better basketball player for his era than Jordan was for his, more dominant despite being focused on the defensive rather than the offensive side of things. A great defensive anchor affects more plays than a great scorer, especially when the great scorer is not also the primary ballhandler and playmaker, which Jordan no longer was. (Not just Pippen, but Harper, Kukoc, and even Luc Longley were getting more assists/minute in 98 than Jordan). Jordan was also much more inclined to pick his minutes defensively, resting on that end to play more offense until someone got his blood fired where he could still pick it up and be a defensive force. Russell, in the meantime, was scoring less than 10ppg (even at the high 60s pace) for the first time in his career, though still averaging almost 5 assists in the stricter assist rule era he played in.

But both were still doing the main things that made them the primary GOAT candidates in NBA history (including winning championships). Russell was still the dominant defensive force in the league, named 1st team All-D (first year this was awarded) though his rebounding had slipped to 3rd in the league at 19.3 rpg (Wilt was 1st at 21.1). Jordan was still the dominant scorer in the game, beating out Shaq for the scoring title at 28.3ppg. at above league efficiency (.533 to league average .524 ts%).

The Celtics talent around Russell had slipped a lot though. Havlicek was a do-it-all player with decent rebounding and assist totals to go with his defense and 20 ppg (though he only shot .405; .024 points below league average ts%). Howell gave them a good inside scorer assisted by Don Nelson with Tom Sanders playing defense at the forward slots and Sam Jones was still able to rise to the occasion off the bench at times but the point guards were poor with starters Larry Siegried (picked off the waiver wire after being cut by expansion San Diego) and Emmet Bryant replacing retired KC Jones.

Chicago was much stronger around Jordan with Pippen giving the Bulls better playmaking, rebounding, and even defense than Havlicek did the Celtics plus equivalent scoring as well both in terms of volume relative to pace and efficiency relative to league. Kukoc gave the same scoring punch Nelson did with another outstanding playmaker added. Rodman was not the defensive force he had once been but was still the GOAT rebounder. Longley was nothing special but could block shots, score as a 4th option, and was a decent passer out of the post. And, of course, Ron Harper/Steve Kerr were a good defense/offense platoon at PG, especially with Pippen and Kukoc to handle the primary playmaking duties.

Of course, this extra talent also produce MUCH better results with the Bulls having a terrific 62 win season while the Celtics slipped to 48 wins and 4th place. Both playoff runs were similar with easy early rounds and close later ones though the Celtics faced one of the great collections of talent ever assembled with Chamberlain joining Jerry West and Elgin Baylor in Los Angeles and Jerry West having one of the great finals ever, despite losing.

Basically it comes down to the same thing it always comes down to with Russell v. Jordan comps though. Do you value the defense and rebounding of Russell in his era more than the scoring of Jordan in his. I think Jordan's season was closer to his peak value than Russell's, Bill had lost a bit of the quickness and footspeed that made him such a unique defensive force. As I have always had these two 1A and !B on my GOAT lists, I probably go with Jordan for this season due to the superior team regular season he led.

[Owly]

A big factor to consider here is Bill Russell coached his team as well as being the star. Additionally, I believe he was the first black coach in basketball (perhaps the first in professional sports?) which brings numerous other things for him to deal with.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above tho, I don’t have time to google right now.

Not sure about all pro sports, but as far as know he was the first black basketball coach.

NBA. North American major league ... maybe not, depending on your thoughts about the ABL. John McLendon coached the Cleveland Pipers. Before that in the NBL the Dayton Rens seem to have had William "Pop" Gates as a player/coach.

[eminence]

A big factor to consider here is Bill Russell coached his team as well as being the star. Additionally, I believe he was the first black coach in basketball (perhaps the first in professional sports?) which brings numerous other things for him to deal with.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above tho, I don’t have time to google right now.

Not sure about all pro sports, but as far as know he was the first black basketball coach.

NBA. North American major league ... maybe not, depending on your thoughts about the ABL. John McLendon coached the Cleveland Pipers. Before that in the NBL the Dayton Rens seem to have had William "Pop" Gates as a player/coach.

I think overall it might be Fritz Pollard as co-head coach of the Akron Pros (NFL) in 1921 (also a player/coach).

[Owly]

Larry Siegried [sic] (picked off the waiver wire after being cut by expansion San Diego)

If indeed he was cut (he was drafted by the Royals, refused to play there, went to the ABL, and after that contract ran out according to many sources the Hawks had acquired his rights, though it isn't clear how, other sources suggest he "tried hooking up" with the Hawks, and different materials have the trial at different times, either at the start of 62-63 or 63-64) as I think he was (some of this info being a touch woolly) it was by the Hawks, much earlier. He would later be traded to the Rockets from the Blazers who grabbed him in expansion.

He seems to have been a decent outside shooter based on his FT%s and a solid defender by reputation (for what that's worth). In any case he had been in Boston's rotation for a number of years.

[penbeast0]

Thanks for the fix; I tend to write from memory and that's a long time ago when I was pretty young. There have been other players who bounced around the league before finding their spot too (including Chauncey Billups). I remember him as a willing defender, open shooter, and decent passer, just slow and not terribly exciting. That also could be because I remember him trying to guard KEvin Loughery and Earl Monroe in Baltimore which wasn't easy as they were both pretty athletic and frenetic players.



Still, I think I'd take Bulls era Ron Harper over him (in any era) and Kerr over Bryant as well.

[Colbinii]

Both in their last (meaningful) seasons, both 34 years old and both won championship. Russell faced tougher comptition in playoffs, while Jordan had harder RS with a lot of injuries in Chicago.

Who do you think had more inpressive season?
Who do you think was better?

Bonus question: who had better supporting cast?

I think what Russell did was more impressive but that does not necessarily mean he was better.

He shut down the 2nd/3rd/4th ranked offenses in the playoffs.

The 76ers dropped from 118 to 106 PPG.
The Knicks dropped from 110 to 101 PPG.
The Lakers dropped from 112 to 106 PPG.

Then, in classic Russell fashion, he wins a game 7 against Wilt.

Jordan had a better cast.

[70sFan]

Does anybody have ORtgs and DRtgs for 1969 Celtics in playoffs (in each round)? I'd like to know how well they did defensively and offensively against each opponent.

[Colbinii]

Does anybody have ORtgs and DRtgs for 1969 Celtics in playoffs (in each round)? I'd like to know how well they did defensively and offensively against each opponent.

You can do some janky estimations.

Philly averaged 106 PPG against Boston but 118 PPG in the regular season.
Both Boston and Philly averaged around 101 FGA/G in the regular season (100.9/101.4) and the paces they played at is 117.5 and 120.4 respectively.

Both teams had right around 480 FGA in the 5 game series; 96 FGA/G.

Dividing FGA/Possessions in the RS gives us (100.9+101.4)/(117.5+120.4) which gives us 0.8503; estimating the amount of shots per possession.

.8503 x 530 (Philadelphia's points) is 450, divided by games played (5) gives us 90.13; a reasonable estimation for Philly's offense in the series, which is -8.

[70sFan]

Does anybody have ORtgs and DRtgs for 1969 Celtics in playoffs (in each round)? I'd like to know how well they did defensively and offensively against each opponent.

You can do some janky estimations.

Philly averaged 106 PPG against Boston but 118 PPG in the regular season.
Both Boston and Philly averaged around 101 FGA/G in the regular season (100.9/101.4) and the paces they played at is 117.5 and 120.4 respectively.

Both teams had right around 480 FGA in the 5 game series; 96 FGA/G.

Dividing FGA/Possessions in the RS gives us (100.9+101.4)/(117.5+120.4) which gives us 0.8503; estimating the amount of shots per possession.

.8503 x 530 (Philadelphia's points) is 450, divided by games played (5) gives us 90.13; a reasonable estimation for Philly's offense in the series, which is -8.

It's decent method, but at the same time you can't guess whether teams decided to play slower or faster in playoffs. That was always the problem for me. I'm almost certain that Celtics played slower in 1969 finals as they also had much less rebounds and assists per game, not only points.

[Ancalagon]

Wasn’t Pippen’s back acting up in the 1998 Finals? Jordan’s performance there was extremely impressive all things considered.

(Note that I would also say Stockton wasn’t 100%).

[bledredwine]

I’m not even going to pretend that I know anything about Russell’s series (I don’t).

That said, Jordan was incredibly consistent that series. He was the leading scorer in every single game (maybe Malone took one, I forgot, but one was close between the two). And the Bulls had no business winning game 6 but Jordan went god mode and then layup, steal, iconic championship winder all consecutively within a minute.

Regardless of Russell’s defensive impact, I find it hard to believe that he had a better series. The Bulls should have been outmatched by the jazz in one of the most defensively intense/grinding series that I’ve seen, still, to this day. Pippen also did not play particularly well.

Pretty much all offensive players would have looked like crap compared to their normal levels in that series. Jordan just put on a post game clinic. Malone was also awesome, considering the defense. Jordan was just consistently on every game and made clutch play after clutch play.

I’d also recommend watching the Indiana 7 game series. Indiana was a fricking beast on both ends and I wouldn’t underrate facing both Indiana and Utah in one finals run. That’s a very difficult run.