Wiggins: "There's not 100 players better than me"

[minimus]

I wonder if point Wiggins experiment might "unlock" comboguard AT PG/SG potential solution for us. I mean I can see VanVleet type of player playing well alongside Wiggins. Hopefully Nowell will develop into such player and Wiggins will continue his solid play at PG.

[Kabookalu]

Posted this in the Raptors board but thought you guys might be interested in these numbers.

These are Andrew Wiggins drives per game since the start of his career:

14-15: 5.2
15-16: 7.5
16-17: 9.6
17-18: 7.7
18-19: 7.9

These are the numbers of other wing players with similar responsibilities just based on last year:

James Harden: 19.6
DeMar DeRozan: 18.7
Luka Doncic: 14.7
Devin Booker: 13.9
Kawhi Leonard: 13.6
Zach LaVine: 13.6
Bradley Beal: 12.7
LeBron James: 12.4
Giannis Antetokounpo: 12.5
Paul George: 10.0
Jimmy Butler: 9.7

Andrew Wiggins this year?

19-20: 13.9

[Foye]

That shot at the end of the 4th quarter yesterday was about the dumbest shot ever.
Had all the time to drive to the basket...goes for the deepest of deep 3s.

Terrible decision making.

[TheZachAttack]

I agree the Wolves had a lot of talent and that talent (two top 15 players) dragged them to the playoffs despite subpar coaching, culture, and personality fit.

Thibs did not maximize the skill set and talent of the core pieces on the roster. Well really anyone on the roster.

Pretty much everyone signed by the Wolves played worse than pre or post Wolves (other than Rose). Saric, Wiggins, Covington, Towns, Teague, etc were all better players pre-Thibs and are better players post-Thibs.

Thibs did not make players better by good coaching and schemes putting players in good situations. The Wolves did not make the playoffs because Thibs was a good coach, they made the playoffs because they were a talented team.

Again, you are writing your own narratives here and these things that can't be claimed as true.

I don’t want to derail so last post, but hahaha how is that my narrative? Sure, I am making assertions and backing those assertions based on observations—but I am now where near alone in what I think.

I think it is extremely tough to argue that Thibs system maximized value in the modern NBA. You can look at the shot chart and the rotations. We were among the league lead in mid range shots and gave up the most open 3’s in the league. You are fighting an uphill battle immediately and playing with one arm tied around your back if that is what you base your offense on.

None of the Wolves key players improved under Thibs. Wiggins regressed. Towns regressed. Saric and Bjelica either were not used properly, regressed, or both. Both have much better numbers (Saric before and after) without Thibs.

Towns/Wiggins have played much better post-Thibs. For Towns, that includes last season during the second half of the year. This is not a narrative, just observations based on performance.

It took one offseason for Saunders to hold Wiggins accountable and get him to meaningfully improve his shot selection. It took one offseason for Saunders to put Wiggins in a situation for him to better succeed. It took one offseason for Saunders/Rosas to modernize the entire teams shot selection. This year, the talent isn’t there yet and they won’t win games, but they aren’t starting off from a negative.

None of that is narrative. A team with Butler and Towns should make the playoffs with any coach. Also common sense.

If a coach cannot maximize his best players talent, it’s tough to call him a good coach. Common sense. Please explain which players got better under Thibs in your eyes. Do you really think making the playoffs had more to do with Thibs coaching than the fact that the Wolves had a really talented roster?

[AirP.]

Thibs used a lot of value to go and get Butler. The Wolves had the talent to go as far (arguably farther) with any coach in the league. The Wolves never got the value of the sum of the parts—they went that far in spite of Thibs.

Thibs had to utilize more assets to get Butler because G.Taylor stepped in and said he wasn't allowed to move Wiggins early in the negotiations. Without that Minnesota probably has Towns, Butler, Markkanan and LaVine as their core instead of Towns, Butler and Wiggins as their core.

The Wolves two best young assets regressed or at best did not progress. Butler hated the culture so badly he blew up and left. The parts Thibs put together didn’t fit and used up tons of cap flexibility. Etc. etc. etc.

I think offensively all the young players did better that first year with Thibs, for example Towns averaged 25 and Wiggins 23. Thibs saw what he had and wanted to move Wiggins for Butler(which G.Taylor nixed while going thru the media telling Wiggins he had a max contract waiting for him), got Butler and did marginalize Wiggins that season because Butler was the far superior wing and to keep Wiggins from so many inefficient shots(long 2s mostly). The next year Butler got that same treatment for a good portion of his time in Philly but still produced for his role, just not like what he could.

It’s entirely possible that Thibs was a good coach for portions of his coaching career (he was), but he was not a good for the Timberwolves. He created a negative culture, a team that did not fit well together, and a system that was negative for his best players.

I see what you are trying to say, but there’s no point in saying Thibs was a good coach for the Wolves—he wasn’t. He may have been for other teams and at other stints—but he wasn’t for the Wolves (and there are a variety of reasons for that).

Thibs had Minnesota near the top of the West till the last ~6-8 weeks before Butler went down with an injury and had banked enough wins to still make the playoffs in Minnesota for the first time in nearly 1 1/2 decades? I'm not sure most coaches would have beenable to be in that situation by then.

Even if Butler left on his own accord and that’s bad luck for Thibs, do you really think that Saunders (or most other coaches) couldn’t get an 8 seed and first round exit with KAT, Butler (two top 10-15 players) and a variety of solid role players? The improvement was due to an influx of talent, not coaching pushing players into situations to maximize their skill sets and outperform expectations

It wasn't bad luck that Butler wanted out, it was a bad situation that Butler wanted out. It started with the hiring of Thibs, G.Taylor went through a consultant company to hire Thibs, I'd guess Thibs being offered the POBO position made him feel that the owner was giving him more power then than he actually would end up having(I'd guess Thibs would have never went to Minnesota if he thought he'd have this little of power to shape the roster, the owner overruled him trading Wiggins then handed him a max contract). The 2nd year of Thibs being there(1st year with Butler) Towns went to Taylor to ask for Thibs to be removed(this came out a year later when Miami was trying to trade for Butler and reporters from both sides were exchanging info). Butler knew his guy "Thibs" wasn't going to stay around much longer because of the Towns situation. Look at what Butler says during his Rachel Nicholes she asks if the situation is fixable and Butler replies "it could be, it could be, do I think so, no, you gotta be honest".

https://youtu.be/5ldILlgRte8?t=97

And no, I don't think Saunders or whatever unproven or not good coach doesn't get that 8th seed because they don't bank enough wins by that point to withstand 6 weeks without Butler at the end of the season. For as much as people griped about the offense, that team was 4th in the NBA in points per 100 possessions behind 2 historically great offensive teams of GS and Houston with Toronto also in there. I don't think people actually looked at how much Thibs really got out of that team, just looked at Wiggins and feeling Towns was underutilized(which he was if you're talking about maximizing Towns, Thibs tried to maximize the team). It's a fair argument if you want to say maximizing Towns is the best for maximizing the team, I don't agree but I understand that argument.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html#team-stats-per_poss::24

The issues for this franchise comes from the owner and him overriding the smarter basketball people. Flip seemed to be able to connect with Taylor to a point where he was able to get Taylor to align with him, doesn't seem like many others have or can do that, Ryan Saunders might be the right guy for Minnesota in the long term because he may possess the same qualities or knows how his dad was able to align with Taylor as he did. Hopefully, when ownership finally changes, the Timberwolves stay in Minnesota and you get a much better basketball owner. Chicago(who is a big market) should be a much better franchise, but their ownership makes incredibly bad decisions, without getting lucky to have MJ drop to them, that franchise really won nothing, ownership values people being loyal to ownership vs performance (hence the FO never changing).

I hope the Timberwolves turn it around, you got the hardest piece to acquire, a young top NBA talent already on the roster. Hopefully you acquire D'Lo in the next year to team up with him.

[Killboard]

So glad Thibs is gone, Ricky and Lavine should be still here but at least we got Roco and Culver out of it.

[minimus]

If Rosas and Ryan can make MIN play like these 9 games all 82 games, I would be more than happy. KAT-RoCo-Okogie-Graham-Wiggins played exceptional defense last night. Are we speaking about MIN? It will also confirm one more time that Thibs magement and coaching were really bad.

Trades will come, improvements are in progress. Step by step we are going to be a good team.

[wesleyt95]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

[AirP.]

Again, you are writing your own narratives here and these things that can't be claimed as true.

I don’t want to derail so last post, but hahaha how is that my narrative? Sure, I am making assertions and backing those assertions based on observations—but I am now where near alone in what I think.

I think it is extremely tough to argue that Thibs system maximized value in the modern NBA. You can look at the shot chart and the rotations. We were among the league lead in mid range shots and gave up the most open 3’s in the league. You are fighting an uphill battle immediately and playing with one arm tied around your back if that is what you base your offense on.

None of the Wolves key players improved under Thibs. Wiggins regressed. Towns regressed. Saric and Bjelica either were not used properly, regressed, or both. Both have much better numbers (Saric before and after) without Thibs.

None? Towns at age 22 made All-NBA under Thibs, we can debate on why but that does show improvement while under Thibs.

Also, Thibs didn't utilize the players to maximize certain player's strengths, he tried to maximize the TEAM and for the most part they did, once again, they were in the 3rd seed when Butler went down for 6 weeks.

Towns/Wiggins have played much better post-Thibs. For Towns, that includes last season during the second half of the year. This is not a narrative, just observations based on performance.

Much better? Thib's first year had no constraints of needing to make the playoffs and Wiggins and Towns averaged 48 points combined but it didn't lead to wins. Just because you maximize players doesn't mean it's playing winning basketball.

It took one offseason for Saunders to hold Wiggins accountable and get him to meaningfully improve his shot selection. It took one offseason for Saunders to put Wiggins in a situation for him to better succeed. It took one offseason for Saunders/Rosas to modernize the entire teams shot selection. This year, the talent isn’t there yet and they won’t win games, but they aren’t starting off from a negative.

None of that is narrative. A team with Butler and Towns should make the playoffs with any coach. Also common sense.

If a coach cannot maximize his best players talent, it’s tough to call him a good coach. Common sense. Please explain which players got better under Thibs in your eyes. Do you really think making the playoffs had more to do with Thibs coaching than the fact that the Wolves had a really talented roster?

A team of Butler(WHO MISSED 6 WEEKS) and Towns doesn't just make the playoffs in the West that season, Denver didn't make the playoffs that year with Jokic, Murray, Harris, Barton and some of Milsap(although hurt half the season).

[Neeva]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

Wiggs would easily make all star in the east and wolves the playoffs we need another west coast team to be added, vegas!!

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[KGdaBom]

Like every person that gets **** on financially and passed over by lessor bums that leaves his company for greener pastures. All POS, right? The difference of course is this league has guaranteed contracts for massive ching and if you only have a year to ride out at multi millions I too hope they would. But I do recognize the timing of Butler's career in his decisions.

He signed the contract. He knew what the contract was. Anybody who does not honor his contract in my eyes is a POS.

yeah whatever. He was traded here. He signed nothing making this team's lunacy his to deal with. You can have your opinion and he's obviously shown he doesn't care if you have one. Just as his first team changed their mind on him and dealt him away, he chose to deal away his second team. It only cost him your respect.

If he didn't want to be traded to play for his beloved coach he should have had a clause in his contract regarding that. No excuse for being a POS and not honoring his contract.

[KGdaBom]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

You are insane if you think Wiggins is better than Beal.

[wesleyt95]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

You are insane if you think Wiggins is better than Beal.

They're putting up similar numbers but Beal doesn't have to play with a no 1 option like KAT, so if we don't count the past theyre closer than you think... Wiggins has been playing great this year

[wesleyt95]

So far

[Crazy-Canuck]

if they keep up this play, wiggs and kat most likely would be on the all star team in the east.

Theyve been good, but the east is just that bad. Now Hayward and Middleton is out. (Kat makes it regardless though).

[Jedzz]

if they keep up this play, wiggs and kat most likely would be on the all star team in the east.

Theyve been good, but the east is just that bad. Now Hayward and Middleton is out. (Kat makes it regardless though).

Someimes I feel like we are similar to parents that want their highschool to drop down a level in a sport in order for their kids to be able to occasionally have wins.

[Calinks]

Shout to Wiggins 2019-2020 season handles.

[vagelis]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

You are insane if you think Wiggins is better than Beal.

Do you still believe the same?

[KGdaBom]

Look at Beal's stats, the undisputed no. 1 option, and tell me Wiggins isn't better. Wiggins at this rate is a top 5 sg

You are insane if you think Wiggins is better than Beal.

Do you still believe the same?

Yes, yes a million times yes.