Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[shadrock]

Cant believe we literally had Sabonis and traded him AND another first rounder for Elfrid freaking Payton.

Sabonis would be our best player right now.

[PrimeThyme]

Cant believe we literally had Sabonis and traded him AND another first rounder for Elfrid freaking Payton.

Sabonis would be our best player right now.

We traded Dipo and Sabonis for a 6 month rental of Serge Ibaka. Which is actually much worse when you think about it.

[ezzzp]

Yeah, why not attempt to move up and draft players they actually wanted/fit a need in the second round when you can either sell away the pick or just take “BPA” based on a silly length metric?

Oh right, because the justification is that “they never make a difference anyway”.... good argument. Hey you know what this team could use right now? Offense in any form off the bench. Too bad a player like Graham seems to be providing that to Charlotte who moved up for him. You know, a smart and calculated investment to diversify missing skill sets...

Christ the amount of apologists, and their arguments, amaze me daily.

Yeah, why not consolidate those 2nd Rounders to trade for the 2017 consensus #1 pick (a player with a ton of two-way potential)...oh wait, they did that.

D Graham last year: 4.7 ppg on .479 TS% / .281 3P% ...I think I'm going to wait until there is more than a 10 game sample to see if this season is real or just a fluke hot streak extremely early in the season.

...btw, that smart calculated GM who traded up to get Graham...yea on the same day he traded Shai G-Alexander for Miles Bridges...ooops I guess his calculations weren't so smart on that one.

Yes they took a flier on Fultz with J Simmons and one of their second rounders in a buy low move. What does that have to do with them failing to deliver on later draft prospects?

The argument was that the FO have punted on later picks because of “flattening out” per Weltmans own mouth post draft.

That and the fact that they had an agenda with the 2nd rounders instead of actually addressing anything or proving that they wanted to move up to take the guy they wanted.

Yes, and thanks for proving my point. Even incompetent franchises can take advantage of getting the players they want later in the draft.

That's wrong.

The Fultz trade also included the 2020 OKC pick. That's the pick they acquired in exchange for the 2017 #25 aka the"flattened out" draft.

The other three 2nd round picks that didn't get traded are currently young developing players on the Magic and in Lakeland. Its ridiculous that you are writing them off when two are rookies and one was a rotation player for Magic last season.

Your point is absolutely not being proved. That couldn't be further from the truth...but nice try.

[ezzzp]

Charlotte moved up in front of us to get him traded 2019 2nd and 2023 2nd... Magic don't move up in drafts we just give away 2nd round picks for cash

That's not accurate... Weltman's Magic draft history:

2017

6 Jonathan Isaac: "some" fans were furious he passed on DSJr

25 traded for 2020 OKC 1st (21-30) + 2017 #35: became Markelle Fultz

33 Wes Iwundu: fringe rotation player

35 traded for 2019 MEM 2nd + 2019 BRK 2nd: became Markelle Fultz

X discovered undrafted Khem Birch playing in Europe

2018

6 Mo Bamba: back up C

35 Melvyn Frazier: season ending injury rookie yr, currently non-rotation

41 traded for Justin Jackson: season ending injury pre-rookie yr, currently in G-L

2019

16 Chuma Okeke: in G-L / will begin NBA in 20-21

46 traded for $ + 2020 LAL 2nd

2017 seems a good draft now, however 2018 and 2019 didn't add anything relevant to our depth. Even Mo isn't that useful, because our undrafted player in 2017 (Birch) could do his job easily (and maybe still better).

How do you know that 2018/2019 drafts didn't add anything relevant to our depth?

Okeke and Bamba are literally 21 years of age, one hasn't even played yet and the other is basically a rookie. Both are solid young prospects. Its absolutely ridiculous to write them off already.

Frazier and Jackson both suffered season ending injuries in their rookie year...that doesn't mean that their careers are over and will never develop. Nobody knows what they'll be in a couple of years.

[VFX]

Yeah, why not consolidate those 2nd Rounders to trade for the 2017 consensus #1 pick (a player with a ton of two-way potential)...oh wait, they did that.

D Graham last year: 4.7 ppg on .479 TS% / .281 3P% ...I think I'm going to wait until there is more than a 10 game sample to see if this season is real or just a fluke hot streak extremely early in the season.

...btw, that smart calculated GM who traded up to get Graham...yea on the same day he traded Shai G-Alexander for Miles Bridges...ooops I guess his calculations weren't so smart on that one.

Yes they took a flier on Fultz with J Simmons and one of their second rounders in a buy low move. What does that have to do with them failing to deliver on later draft prospects?

The argument was that the FO have punted on later picks because of “flattening out” per Weltmans own mouth post draft.

That and the fact that they had an agenda with the 2nd rounders instead of actually addressing anything or proving that they wanted to move up to take the guy they wanted.

Yes, and thanks for proving my point. Even incompetent franchises can take advantage of getting the players they want later in the draft.

That's wrong.

The Fultz trade also included the 2020 OKC pick. That's the pick they acquired in exchange for the 2017 #25 aka the"flattened out" draft.

The other three 2nd round picks that didn't get traded are currently young developing players on the Magic and in Lakeland. Its ridiculous that you are writing them off when two are rookies and one was a rotation player for Magic last season.

Your point is absolutely not being proved. That couldn't be further from the truth...but nice try.

You’re not getting it.

The Fultz trade has nothing to do with failing to capitalize on making draft selections. You are looking that the trade in a vacuum that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Too many factors and moving parts are involved to fully say with confidence that the trade was something always available and on the table.

Yeah, so what? They drafted players currently in Lakeland... and? The topic was about drafting players that could actually help the team within the window of time they’ve been at the helm. Graham was an example of capitalizing on the second round - something they haven’t done in their recent draft history. You think they couldn’t have found a player to produce offense off the bench with this roster?

Yes, yes it was. Making minor moves in the draft, even in the second round, pays dividends even for teams with poor draft history like Charlotte. They made a trade for their guy and its paying off. Thats the point. Re-read.

[ezzzp]

Cant believe we literally had Sabonis and traded him AND another first rounder for Elfrid freaking Payton.

Sabonis would be our best player right now.

The trade you are thinking about was when Rob Hennigan traded: Dario Šarić + 2015 2nd (became Willy Hernangómez) + 2018 1st (became Landry Shamet) to move up two spots in the draft to get Elfrid Payton.

Rob Hennigan traded: Ersan İlyasova, Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis to the Oklahoma City Thunder for Serge Ibaka.

[ezzzp]

Yes they took a flier on Fultz with J Simmons and one of their second rounders in a buy low move. What does that have to do with them failing to deliver on later draft prospects?

The argument was that the FO have punted on later picks because of “flattening out” per Weltmans own mouth post draft.

That and the fact that they had an agenda with the 2nd rounders instead of actually addressing anything or proving that they wanted to move up to take the guy they wanted.

Yes, and thanks for proving my point. Even incompetent franchises can take advantage of getting the players they want later in the draft.

That's wrong.

The Fultz trade also included the 2020 OKC pick. That's the pick they acquired in exchange for the 2017 #25 aka the"flattened out" draft.

The other three 2nd round picks that didn't get traded are currently young developing players on the Magic and in Lakeland. Its ridiculous that you are writing them off when two are rookies and one was a rotation player for Magic last season.

Your point is absolutely not being proved. That couldn't be further from the truth...but nice try.

You’re not getting it.

The Fultz trade has nothing to do with failing to capitalize on making draft selections. You are looking that the trade in a vacuum that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Too many factors and moving parts are involved to fully say with confidence that the trade was something always available and on the table.

Yeah, so what? They drafted players currently in Lakeland... and? The topic was about drafting players that could actually help the team within the window of time they’ve been at the helm. Graham was an example of capitalizing on the second round - something they haven’t done in their recent draft history.

Yes, yes it was. Making minor moves in the draft, even in the second round, pays dividends even for teams with poor draft history like Charlotte. They made a trade for their guy and its paying off. Thats the point.

No, you're not getting it.

The Fultz trade is 100% absolutely and example of how they maximized their draft assets. Draft picks are assets, you don't need to pick a player to extract value from it.

Its not a video game...no GM drafts 2nd round (or even outside of high lottery) with expectation of immediate impact...FO's draft with expectation that those young players will need time to develop....especially outside of the lottery. When they do impact right away, its an anomaly NOT the norm.

Charlotte made a trade for a guy who's had two good weeks (first weeks of season no-less) and the rest of his time in the NBA he has garbage - LMAO you're literally making huge assumptions over an ok 10 game sample...meanwhile they traded away the best up-and-coming young PG for a role player....that's the point.

[VFX]

That's wrong.

The Fultz trade also included the 2020 OKC pick. That's the pick they acquired in exchange for the 2017 #25 aka the"flattened out" draft.

The other three 2nd round picks that didn't get traded are currently young developing players on the Magic and in Lakeland. Its ridiculous that you are writing them off when two are rookies and one was a rotation player for Magic last season.

Your point is absolutely not being proved. That couldn't be further from the truth...but nice try.

You’re not getting it.

The Fultz trade has nothing to do with failing to capitalize on making draft selections. You are looking that the trade in a vacuum that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Too many factors and moving parts are involved to fully say with confidence that the trade was something always available and on the table.

Yeah, so what? They drafted players currently in Lakeland... and? The topic was about drafting players that could actually help the team within the window of time they’ve been at the helm. Graham was an example of capitalizing on the second round - something they haven’t done in their recent draft history.

Yes, yes it was. Making minor moves in the draft, even in the second round, pays dividends even for teams with poor draft history like Charlotte. They made a trade for their guy and its paying off. Thats the point.

No you're not getting it.

The Fultz trade is 100% absolutely and example of how they maximized their draft assets. Draft picks are assets, you don't need to pick a player to extract value from it.

Its not a video game...no GM drafts 2nd round (or even outside of high lottery) with expectation of immediate impact...FO's draft with expectation that those young players will need time to develop....especially outside of the lottery. When they do impact right away, its an anomaly NOT the norm.

Charlotte made a trade for a guy who's had two good weeks and the rest of time in NBA has garbage...meanwhile they traded away the best up and coming young PG for a role player....that's the point.

So now the conversation becomes about assets and not utilizing the draft. Good dodge of the original post, yet again trying to justify every move the FO does or doesn’t make.

Speaking of assets, Bamba continues to look like a pretty bad use of a #6 pick by giving Vuc 4/$100m contract while renewing Birch. You really want to get into the game of “maximizing assets”? How about drafting Okeke in a “playoff push” year while locking up Ross for big money as he looks like a shell of himself from last season? Go ahead and explain it all away since you’ve decided to derail the convo in general. I’ll give them Fultz, it was a great move when it happened. Philly also needed to pull that trigger too lucky for them.

That’s reaffirming my point... even a poorly run organization that makes bad decisions can get lucky if they just make simple moves for players they want, instead of some stupid length metric. You’re merely rewording my statement and saying I’m wrong lol. And where is Iwundu and Frazier in comparison? Where is their great 10 game sample size? LOL indeed.

[ezzzp]

You’re not getting it.

The Fultz trade has nothing to do with failing to capitalize on making draft selections. You are looking that the trade in a vacuum that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Too many factors and moving parts are involved to fully say with confidence that the trade was something always available and on the table.

Yeah, so what? They drafted players currently in Lakeland... and? The topic was about drafting players that could actually help the team within the window of time they’ve been at the helm. Graham was an example of capitalizing on the second round - something they haven’t done in their recent draft history.

Yes, yes it was. Making minor moves in the draft, even in the second round, pays dividends even for teams with poor draft history like Charlotte. They made a trade for their guy and its paying off. Thats the point.

No you're not getting it.

The Fultz trade is 100% absolutely and example of how they maximized their draft assets. Draft picks are assets, you don't need to pick a player to extract value from it.

Its not a video game...no GM drafts 2nd round (or even outside of high lottery) with expectation of immediate impact...FO's draft with expectation that those young players will need time to develop....especially outside of the lottery. When they do impact right away, its an anomaly NOT the norm.

Charlotte made a trade for a guy who's had two good weeks and the rest of time in NBA has garbage...meanwhile they traded away the best up and coming young PG for a role player....that's the point.

So now the conversation becomes about assets and not utilizing the draft. Good dodge of the original post, yet again trying to justify every move the FO does or doesn’t make.

Speaking of assets, Bamba continues to look like a pretty bad use of a #6 pick by giving Vuc 4/$100m contract while renewing Birch. You really want to get into the game of “maximizing assets”? How about drafting Okeke in a “playoff push” year while locking up Ross for big money as he looks like a shell of himself from last season? Go ahead and explain it all away since you’ve decided to derail the convo in general. I’ll give them Fultz, it was a great move when it happened. Philly also needed to pull that trigger too lucky for them.

That’s reaffirming my point... even a poorly run organization that makes bad decisions can get lucky if they just make simple moves for players they want, instead of some stupid length metric. You’re merely rewording my statement and saying I’m wrong lol. And where is Iwundu and Frazier in comparison? Where is their sample size? LOL indeed.

Uhh...utilizing the draft 100% absolutely DOES entail using picks as assets.

The one dodging is you, and yet again you resort to personal attacks to deflect that you were proven wrong yet again.

Bamba is 21 and still raw. You do not know what Bamba will be in a couple of years when he has had time to develop. Vucevic's contract is perfectly in line with that timeline.

Drafting Okeke is about the future, not the immediate. Maintaining a high floor is incredibly important for the proper development of young players. That's the best possible context for player development and how the best player development franchises do it. Ross is part of keeping that floor high. I've already explained that to you a 1000 times...and I didn't derail the conversation, you did.

...and no, it is NOT reaffirming your point...its the opposite. You literally praised that FO calling them "smart and calculated" ...after I showed you all the facts of that draft you are trying to spin it...very badly I would add .

Iwundu and Frazier are young developing players...again, its not a video game / instant gratification...development takes years, not minutes. You do not know what they'll be 2-3 years from now. You also don't know what another team needs in a trade package, cheap defensive wings are desirable assets...even more if they develop a reliable 3PT shot.

[VFX]

No you're not getting it.

The Fultz trade is 100% absolutely and example of how they maximized their draft assets. Draft picks are assets, you don't need to pick a player to extract value from it.

Its not a video game...no GM drafts 2nd round (or even outside of high lottery) with expectation of immediate impact...FO's draft with expectation that those young players will need time to develop....especially outside of the lottery. When they do impact right away, its an anomaly NOT the norm.

Charlotte made a trade for a guy who's had two good weeks and the rest of time in NBA has garbage...meanwhile they traded away the best up and coming young PG for a role player....that's the point.

So now the conversation becomes about assets and not utilizing the draft. Good dodge of the original post, yet again trying to justify every move the FO does or doesn’t make.

Speaking of assets, Bamba continues to look like a pretty bad use of a #6 pick by giving Vuc 4/$100m contract while renewing Birch. You really want to get into the game of “maximizing assets”? How about drafting Okeke in a “playoff push” year while locking up Ross for big money as he looks like a shell of himself from last season? Go ahead and explain it all away since you’ve decided to derail the convo in general. I’ll give them Fultz, it was a great move when it happened. Philly also needed to pull that trigger too lucky for them.

That’s reaffirming my point... even a poorly run organization that makes bad decisions can get lucky if they just make simple moves for players they want, instead of some stupid length metric. You’re merely rewording my statement and saying I’m wrong lol. And where is Iwundu and Frazier in comparison? Where is their sample size? LOL indeed.

Uhh...utilizing the draft 100% absolutely DOES entail using picks as assets.

The one dodging is you, and yet again you resort to personal attacks to deflect that you were proven yet wrong again.

We are talking about making moves *in* a draft to move up and select a player. What does that have to do with trading picks for a current nba player in the offseason? Not relevant to the discussion you seem to not be able to grasp. Again, this is just you trying to open a statement up to cram in a silver lining to the original post. Pivoting the statement to make your point is weak.

Everything else you’ve said is good. Just try and avoid the crack about the other posters reading skills. Thanks! Knightro

[pepe1991]

I don't want to get into bigger argument but Iwundu is not "young developing player" . He is 25 years old player that simply isn't good to be rotation player of playoff team. Frazier is 23 and seems to be even worst.

[ezzzp]

We are talking about making moves *in* a draft to move up and select a player. What does that have to do with trading picks for a current nba player in the offseason? Not relevant to the discussion you seem to not be able to grasp.

...and you are wrong, yet again.

My reply to Martinzisafraud, which showed pick for pick how Weltman utilized the draft, was a response to his statement: "the Magic don't move up in drafts we just give away 2nd round picks for cash"...go back and read it, its literally underlined.

My response and the part of his statement it was directed at (hence the underline) was about the utilization of draft picks.

[Knightro]

Cant believe we literally had Sabonis and traded him AND another first rounder for Elfrid freaking Payton.

Sabonis would be our best player right now.

We traded Dipo and Sabonis for a 6 month rental of Serge Ibaka. Which is actually much worse when you think about it.

If you see all the transactions through to the very end, the Magic essentially traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Ross and Fultz which is slightly better, but still not spectacular.

[Knightro]

To jump into this whole Graham debate...

Forget about how he’s looked so far for Charlotte or not because that part isn’t all that relevant.

The issue for me is that if the Magic really liked Graham as much as the rumors insinuated and were all set on picking him at 35, then they should have been more proactive and more prepared for the possibility of someone leapfrogging them.

The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took.

We’re talking about the second round here. Teams can move around to any spot in the second round if they want to basically. If Graham was the Magic’s guy, then they could have and should have done more to ensure that they got him.

Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it. But if it’s not and they clearly had Graham rated higher, they weren’t proactive enough about landing him.

[VFX]

To jump into this whole Graham debate...

Forget about how he’s looked so far for Charlotte or not because that part isn’t all that relevant.

The issue for me is that if the Magic really liked Graham as much as the rumors insinuated and were all set on picking him at 35, then they should have been more proactive and more prepared for the possibility of someone leapfrogging them.

The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took.

We’re talking about the second round here. Teams can move around to any spot in the second round if they want to basically. If Graham was the Magic’s guy, then they could have and should have done more to ensure that they got him.

Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it. But if it’s not and they clearly had Graham rated higher, they weren’t proactive enough about landing him.

Exactly. Thanks for explaining the last few pages.

[ezzzp]

To jump into this whole Graham debate...

Forget about how he’s looked so far for Charlotte or not because that part isn’t all that relevant.

The issue for me is that if the Magic really liked Graham as much as the rumors insinuated and were all set on picking him at 35, then they should have been more proactive and more prepared for the possibility of someone leapfrogging them.

The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took.

We’re talking about the second round here. Teams can move around to any spot in the second round if they want to basically. If Graham was the Magic’s guy, then they could have and should have done more to ensure that they got him.

Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it. But if it’s not and they clearly had Graham rated higher, they weren’t proactive enough about landing him.

Exactly. Thanks for explaining the last few pages.

No, not exactly.

That has NOTHING to don’t with Martinzisafraud’s statement that Weltman “gave away our 2nd round picks for cash” ...aka wasted the assets

[ezzzp]

To jump into this whole Graham debate...

Forget about how he’s looked so far for Charlotte or not because that part isn’t all that relevant.

The issue for me is that if the Magic really liked Graham as much as the rumors insinuated and were all set on picking him at 35, then they should have been more proactive and more prepared for the possibility of someone leapfrogging them.

The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took.

We’re talking about the second round here. Teams can move around to any spot in the second round if they want to basically. If Graham was the Magic’s guy, then they could have and should have done more to ensure that they got him.

Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it. But if it’s not and they clearly had Graham rated higher, they weren’t proactive enough about landing him.

How do you know that the FO wasn’t on the phone trying to move up?

It takes two teams to make a trade, even in the second round. It isn’t anywhere near as automatic as you are trying to make it seem. Especially for high 2nd rounders.

Those teams could have easily not wanted to move down or out because they had someone they liked...or Atlanta could have just preferred the assets that Charlotte had to offer.

[pepe1991]

To jump into this whole Graham debate...

Forget about how he’s looked so far for Charlotte or not because that part isn’t all that relevant.

The issue for me is that if the Magic really liked Graham as much as the rumors insinuated and were all set on picking him at 35, then they should have been more proactive and more prepared for the possibility of someone leapfrogging them.

The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took.

We’re talking about the second round here. Teams can move around to any spot in the second round if they want to basically. If Graham was the Magic’s guy, then they could have and should have done more to ensure that they got him.

Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it. But if it’s not and they clearly had Graham rated higher, they weren’t proactive enough about landing him.

Exactly how do you know that the FO wasn’t on the phone trying to move up?

It takes two teams to make a trade, even in the second round. It isn’t anywhere near as automatic as you are trying to make it seem.

Those teams could have easily not wanted to move down or out because they had someone they liked...or Atlanta could have just preferred the assets that Charlotte had to offer.

Oh come on, Warrriors got rights for 30th pick by trading Damian Jones and 2026 second round pick on same night.

Hornets traded for Graham by moving 2023 second round pick.

[Knightro]

Considering 30 and 34 both got traded in 2018, it stands to reason that the Magic could have gotten involved in a move up from 35 if they *really* wanted to.

If the argument is "the Magic didn't value Graham enough to give up additional future assets to ensure they got him", that's fine. I can understand that. If they had Okobo, Brunson, Carter, Graham and Frazier all rated pretty similarly and were just going to pick the guy who made it to 35, so be it.

But if the argument is "the Magic were locked in to Graham and expected him to fall to 35" and they allowed someone else to leapfrog them when they could have avoided that with a little bit of proactive thought, that's what people take issue with.

The problem is we don't know for sure what the Magic's board actually looked like. There was a report that said they were going to take Graham at 35, but there's no way to really prove it.

[basketballRob]

Can someone make a game thread before the curse of Dulcer strikes again? We need a system to stay one game ahead.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app