Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[Xatticus]

Considering 30 and 34 both got traded in 2018, it stands to reason that the Magic could have gotten involved in a move up from 35 if they *really* wanted to.

If the argument is "the Magic didn't value Graham enough to give up additional future assets to ensure they got him", that's fine. I can understand that. If they had Okobo, Brunson, Carter, Graham and Fraizer all rated pretty similarly and were just going to pick the guy who made it to 35, so be it.

But if the argument is "the Magic were locked in to Graham and expected him to fall to 35" and they allowed someone else to leapfrog them when they could have avoided that with a little bit of proactive thought, that's what people take issue with.

The problem is we don't know for sure what the Magic's board actually looked like. There was a report that said they were going to take Graham at 35, but there's no way to really prove it.

I think it's safe to assume that our front office simply doesn't value 2nd-round picks. I'd imagine that it is a philosophical thing as much as anything else. For me, there should always be a few spots on the roster designated for developmental types. Our roster isn't full and we still have room on it for Birch, MCW, and Jefferson. These are guys that aren't (or shouldn't be) in our rotation and neither are they prospects. This is what we have done with our deep bench.

I'm not going to argue that any of the potential players that we have neglected in the draft over the last few years would really make much of a difference, but I honestly can't see how any of them wouldn't be a better use of a roster spot than the aforementioned players. If you are relying on your 10-15 slots to keep you afloat in the event of injuries, the season is probably already lost.

Some teams use the end of their bench to stash and develop guys like Carson Edwards, Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, Jevon Carter, Devonte Graham, DeAnthony Melton, etc... We decided to sign MCW and forced him into the rotation. What's the upside here? I don't want to nitpick everything our front office does, but this is pretty damned difficult to defend.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/13/20962320/san-antonio-spurs-demar-derozan-popovich-trade-style


Here's some speculation now!!

This is a team at a crossroads. Despite the fact that he has performed ably since arriving in Texas from Canada, DeRozan might not be in town for that much longer. He could even be traded ahead of the deadline. DeRozan can become a free agent in 2020 by declining his $27.7 million player option; he was far apart from the team on extension talks before the season, according to The Athletic’s Sam Amick. The Spurs could always deal him sooner rather than let him walk for nothing. Multiple league sources say the Magic are scouring the trade market for scoring help and have already expressed interest in trading for DeRozan.

[ezzzp]

Oh come on, Warrriors got rights for 30th pick by trading Damian Jones and 2026 second round pick on same night.

Hornets traded for Graham by moving 2023 second round pick.

First of all, teams prefer early 2nd rounders over late 1st rounders because there is no guaranteed salary attached to the pick and its in a region of the draft that has low variance. Anyone who has followed the NBA for any length of time knows this.

Second, the Hornets moved up by trading TWO 2nd rounders. The 2019 2nd that eventually became Bol Bol, AND a 2023 2nd.

[VFX]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/13/20962320/san-antonio-spurs-demar-derozan-popovich-trade-style


Here's some speculation now!!

This is a team at a crossroads. Despite the fact that he has performed ably since arriving in Texas from Canada, DeRozan might not be in town for that much longer. He could even be traded ahead of the deadline. DeRozan can become a free agent in 2020 by declining his $27.7 million player option; he was far apart from the team on extension talks before the season, according to The Athletic’s Sam Amick. The Spurs could always deal him sooner rather than let him walk for nothing. Multiple league sources say the Magic are scouring the trade market for scoring help and have already expressed interest in trading for DeRozan.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=rdgsfpq

Do it.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/13/20962320/san-antonio-spurs-demar-derozan-popovich-trade-style


Here's some speculation now!!

This is a team at a crossroads. Despite the fact that he has performed ably since arriving in Texas from Canada, DeRozan might not be in town for that much longer. He could even be traded ahead of the deadline. DeRozan can become a free agent in 2020 by declining his $27.7 million player option; he was far apart from the team on extension talks before the season, according to The Athletic’s Sam Amick. The Spurs could always deal him sooner rather than let him walk for nothing. Multiple league sources say the Magic are scouring the trade market for scoring help and have already expressed interest in trading for DeRozan.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=rdgsfpq

Do it.

0 chance they move Forbes.. dude is really starting to come into his own and is a key spacing piece for them

[VFX]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/13/20962320/san-antonio-spurs-demar-derozan-popovich-trade-style


Here's some speculation now!!

This is a team at a crossroads. Despite the fact that he has performed ably since arriving in Texas from Canada, DeRozan might not be in town for that much longer. He could even be traded ahead of the deadline. DeRozan can become a free agent in 2020 by declining his $27.7 million player option; he was far apart from the team on extension talks before the season, according to The Athletic’s Sam Amick. The Spurs could always deal him sooner rather than let him walk for nothing. Multiple league sources say the Magic are scouring the trade market for scoring help and have already expressed interest in trading for DeRozan.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=rdgsfpq

Do it.

0 chance they move Forbes.. dude is really starting to come into his own and is a key spacing piece for them

Sad but true.

[ezzzp]

Considering 30 and 34 both got traded in 2018, it stands to reason that the Magic could have gotten involved in a move up from 35 if they *really* wanted to.

If the argument is "the Magic didn't value Graham enough to give up additional future assets to ensure they got him", that's fine. I can understand that. If they had Okobo, Brunson, Carter, Graham and Frazier all rated pretty similarly and were just going to pick the guy who made it to 35, so be it.

But if the argument is "the Magic were locked in to Graham and expected him to fall to 35" and they allowed someone else to leapfrog them when they could have avoided that with a little bit of proactive thought, that's what people take issue with.

The problem is we don't know for sure what the Magic's board actually looked like. There was a report that said they were going to take Graham at 35, but there's no way to really prove it.

Late firsts are less valuable than high 2nds because of the guaranteed salary and low variance with the range. That's pretty common knowledge to those that follow the NBA beyond casual level.

It doesn't stand to reason. In fact, its the opposite. The FO had a player targeted. We know that because they gave Graham a promise. It actually stands to reason that they would have made calls to gauge what it would cost to secure him...not the other way around.

The logic (one not clouded by this forum's widespread agenda to s**t on everything Magic related) points to the FO probing the market and team's either demanding too high a price or just said no to the Magic.

[Knightro]

Late firsts are less valuable than high 2nds because of the guaranteed salary and low variance with the range. That's pretty common knowledge to those that follow the NBA beyond casual level.

It doesn't stand to reason. In fact, its the opposite. The FO had a player targeted. We know that because they gave Graham a promise. It actually stands to reason that they would have made calls to gauge what it would cost to secure him...not the other way around.

The logic (one not clouded by this forum's widespread agenda to s**t on everything Magic related) points to the FO probing the market and team's either demanding too high a price or just said no to the Magic.

I'm not saying the Magic *definitely* screwed this up because we don't know for sure that they even promised Graham at 35 or they had him ranked significantly higher than other players that were drafted around him.

But I do believe that it's possible that the Magic's own reactive nature was a direct cause on them missing out on the player they really wanted in this case. Based on the assumed belief that the Magic DID promise to select Graham at 35, it's certainly not out of the question to assume they liked him more than Frazier and other players drafted in that range.

If that really is the case, then the Magic could have taken some small steps to ensure they got the player they really liked rather than leaving themselves open to the possibility of getting leapfrogged.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that the Magic's front office could have allowed themselves to be outmaneuvered in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself in many fruitful discussions with anyone.

[ezzzp]

I think it's safe to assume that our front office simply doesn't value 2nd-round picks. I'd imagine that it is a philosophical thing as much as anything else. For me, there should always be a few spots on the roster designated for developmental types. Our roster isn't full and we still have room on it for Birch, MCW, and Jefferson. These are guys that aren't (or shouldn't be) in our rotation and neither are they prospects. This is what we have done with our deep bench.

I'm not going to argue that any of the potential players that we have neglected in the draft over the last few years would really make much of a difference, but I honestly can't see how any of them wouldn't be a better use of a roster spot than the aforementioned players. If you are relying on your 10-15 slots to keep you afloat in the event of injuries, the season is probably already lost.

Some teams use the end of their bench to stash and develop guys like Carson Edwards, Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, Jevon Carter, Devonte Graham, DeAnthony Melton, etc... We decided to sign MCW and forced him into the rotation. What's the upside here? I don't want to nitpick everything our front office does, but this is pretty damned difficult to defend.

Weltman values 2nd Round Picks exactly how every other FO does. They are assets.

In addition, NO GM gives guaranteed contracts to every single 2nd round pick they have because the CBA exists (salary and roster guidelines).

Weltman HAS used the 2nd round and IS using a few roster spots for development...exactly how the teams of those cherry picked 2nd round anomalies used their roster:


2017

33 Wes Iwundu (player development)

35 traded for 2019 MEM 2nd + 2019 BRK 2nd: traded for Markelle Fultz (player development)

2018

35 Melvyn Frazier: season ending injury rookie year (player development)

41 Justin Jackson: season ending injury rookie yr, currently in G-L (player development)

2019

46 traded for 2020 LAL 2nd

[ezzzp]

Late firsts are less valuable than high 2nds because of the guaranteed salary and low variance with the range. That's pretty common knowledge to those that follow the NBA beyond casual level.

It doesn't stand to reason. In fact, its the opposite. The FO had a player targeted. We know that because they gave Graham a promise. It actually stands to reason that they would have made calls to gauge what it would cost to secure him...not the other way around.

The logic (one not clouded by this forum's widespread agenda to s**t on everything Magic related) points to the FO probing the market and team's either demanding too high a price or just said no to the Magic.

I'm not saying the Magic *definitely* screwed this up because we don't know for sure that they even promised Graham at 35 or they had him ranked significantly higher than other players that were drafted around him.

But I do believe that it's possible that the Magic's own reactive nature was a direct cause on them missing out on the player they really wanted in this case. Based on the assumed belief that the Magic DID promise to select Graham at 35, it's certainly not out of the question to assume they liked him more than Frazier and other players drafted in that range.

If that really is the case, then the Magic could have taken some small steps to ensure they got the player they really liked rather than leaving themselves open to the possibility of getting leapfrogged.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that the Magic's front office could have allowed themselves to be outmaneuvered in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself in many fruitful discussions with anyone.

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

[pepe1991]

Oh come on, Warrriors got rights for 30th pick by trading Damian Jones and 2026 second round pick on same night.

Hornets traded for Graham by moving 2023 second round pick.

First of all, teams prefer early 2nd rounders over late 1st rounders because there is no guaranteed salary attached to the pick and its in a region of the draft that has low variance. Anyone who has followed the NBA for any length of time knows this.

Second, the Hornets moved up by trading TWO 2nd rounders. The 2019 2nd that eventually became Bol Bol, AND a 2023 2nd.

lol, yea that 3 years $4M would really break a bank if they moved to get 30# pick

Again, if you want somebody, go get him, don't feet fans with hindsinght bull***t .

[ezzzp]

Oh come on, Warrriors got rights for 30th pick by trading Damian Jones and 2026 second round pick on same night.

Hornets traded for Graham by moving 2023 second round pick.

First of all, teams prefer early 2nd rounders over late 1st rounders because there is no guaranteed salary attached to the pick and its in a region of the draft that has low variance. Anyone who has followed the NBA for any length of time knows this.

Second, the Hornets moved up by trading TWO 2nd rounders. The 2019 2nd that eventually became Bol Bol, AND a 2023 2nd.

lol, yea that 3 years $4M would really break a bank if they moved to get 30# pick

Again, if you want somebody, go get him, don't feet fans with hindsinght bull***t .

lol, I hope you know better than that...that amount matters to every single team, as does the roster spot.

...and just because a GM wants somebody that doesn't mean other teams are willing to trade unless they force you into a lopsided trade ...see Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that type of failed logic.

[pepe1991]

First of all, teams prefer early 2nd rounders over late 1st rounders because there is no guaranteed salary attached to the pick and its in a region of the draft that has low variance. Anyone who has followed the NBA for any length of time knows this.

Second, the Hornets moved up by trading TWO 2nd rounders. The 2019 2nd that eventually became Bol Bol, AND a 2023 2nd.

lol, yea that 3 years $4M would really break a bank if they moved to get 30# pick

Again, if you want somebody, go get him, don't feet fans with hindsinght bull***t .

lol, I hope you know better than that...that amount matters to every single team, as does the roster spot.

...and just because a GM wants somebody that doesn't mean other teams are willing to trade unless they force you into a lopsided trade ...see Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that type of failed logic.

Charlotte Hornets: Devonte’ Graham, PG (Kansas): Signed
Three-year, $4.07MM contract. First two years guaranteed.
Orlando Magic: Melvin Frazier, SF (Tulane): Signed
Three-year, $4.13MM contract. First two years guaranteed.

Spellman got $5M guaranteed but also has similar sctructure of a contract 2+1+1

[Knightro]

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some of And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

[ezzzp]

lol, yea that 3 years $4M would really break a bank if they moved to get 30# pick

Again, if you want somebody, go get him, don't feet fans with hindsinght bull***t .

lol, I hope you know better than that...that amount matters to every single team, as does the roster spot.

...and just because a GM wants somebody that doesn't mean other teams are willing to trade unless they force you into a lopsided trade ...see Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that type of failed logic.

Charlotte Hornets: Devonte’ Graham, PG (Kansas): Signed
Three-year, $4.07MM contract. First two years guaranteed.
Orlando Magic: Melvin Frazier, SF (Tulane): Signed
Three-year, $4.13MM contract. First two years guaranteed.

Spellman got $5M guaranteed but also has similar sctructure of a contract 2+1+1

and? that proves nothing to your point...in fact it only re-inforces my overarching point that the Magic do indeed use their 2nd round picks.

Pointing that out does nothing to your point that Magic didn't even try to get the player they wanted.

[pepe1991]

lol, I hope you know better than that...that amount matters to every single team, as does the roster spot.

...and just because a GM wants somebody that doesn't mean other teams are willing to trade unless they force you into a lopsided trade ...see Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that type of failed logic.

Charlotte Hornets: Devonte’ Graham, PG (Kansas): Signed
Three-year, $4.07MM contract. First two years guaranteed.
Orlando Magic: Melvin Frazier, SF (Tulane): Signed
Three-year, $4.13MM contract. First two years guaranteed.

Spellman got $5M guaranteed but also has similar sctructure of a contract 2+1+1

and? that proves nothing to your point...in fact it only re-inforces my overarching point that the Magic do indeed use their 2nd round picks.

Pointing that out does nothing to your point that Magic didn't even try to get the player they wanted.

Pointing how easy it was get a draft pick around place where Graham was projected tells me that it's just hindsight and armchair GMing, since they did nothing to make sure they get him.

Also Magic usage of second round picks since Weltman and Hammond took over was nothing shorter but complete disaster.
Iwundu is 25 and does not belong in nba. Frazier is 23 and also does not belong in NBA, Jackson never played single sec of NBA.

[tiderulz]

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some of And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

problem was, we really needed a PG and then a run of PG's happened and we ended up with Melvin Frazier, who's skills are replicated across many other players.

[ezzzp]

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some or And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

People that actually know me know that I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, and am objective to a fault. I look at all sides of the equation and analyze as much information possible to better understand what is actually going on. On this forum, looking at the reality of the situation and the facts gets you accused of trying to legitimize any FO move....its characterized as optimism because the facts are usually counter to pessimist agenda on this forum.

[VFX]

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some of And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

problem was, we really needed a PG and then a run of PG's happened and we ended up with Melvin Frazier, who's skills are replicated across many other players.

This is exactly the issue. They’ve used some bull metric to determine their second round picks when the team clearly lacks simple positional and skill set needs. So, even when they DID decide to use the picks, they managed to botch those and rather went for redemption projects and overlapped skill sets In free agency.

[VFX]

You did insinuate that they *definitely* screwed this up. Your presumption that they didn't make calls is pretty clear:

"The front office needed to be on the phone with Atlanta, Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas - all the teams in that range ahead of them - to ensure that they were able to get the guy they really want at 35 or in a slight trade up if that’s what it took."

Exactly how do you know that they have a reactive nature? Do you personally know Jeff Weltman or John Hammond? You are just speculating towards the narrative that backs your argument...regardless that the logic points in the opposite direction. You do NOT know what small steps they took AND the logic points to them attempting to make those steps.

On a much larger scale, if you're going to continue to insist that it's simply out of the realm of possibility that not everything the Magic's front office does is a failure, wether in this scenario or any other scenario, you're just not going to find yourself having an objective discussion with anyone. It will will just be a confirmation bias loop of undeserved self congratulatory and1's totally disregarding facts and logic - a flawed reality clouded by agenda.

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some or And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

People that actually know me know that I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, and am objective to a fault. I look at all sides of the equation and analyze as much information possible to better understand what is actually going on. On this forum, looking at the reality of the situation and the facts gets you accused of trying to legitimize any FO move....its characterized as optimism because the facts are usually counter to pessimist agenda on this forum.

LOL

Calling Knightro a “pessimist” and yourself “objective to a fault” is possibly the funniest thing I’ll read on this forum in a while.