Khris Middleton Thread

[slos]

if you completely ignore cap holds and free agent signing procedure sure.

Middleton had 19,5 mil cap hold and Brogdon only 3 mil. Bucks would be after this trade at 104 mil with 13 players and then they would go over the cap to sign Midd's and Brog's contracts. I didn't ignore anything.

[raferfenix]

I won't sweat the Middleton and Brogdon decisions if the Bucks make transactions to both increase our chances at winning a ring and Giannis extending.

We made 2 win now deals during the season last year.

Plenty of time for us to improve the roster on the fly again.

Horst just needs to stick the landing better than he did with the Mirotic trade -- especially since acquiring someone better than Brogdon would be such a heavy lift.

[DingleJerry]

Well, in the year he did get hurt the team was bad without him and then got hot when he came back. Basically every ratingo n the team improved and the team started winning. I'm generally on the side of 'man that contract is nuts, I don' t see why he's worth double the other guys'. But in a way we did have that exact thing happen a couple years back. But of course it was pre-Bucks being actually good. I assume Kidd was still coach, but didn't double check if that was the same year he got fired.

That's more of a narrative based argument though, the analytics didn't back it up at the time.
The Bucks were bad under Kidd in general. Jabari got hurt the same day Khris came back, so it was easy to craft that narrative. But the next year where Jabari was out till Groundhog Day, the Bucks struggled out of the gate and the Bledsoe trade was on some level a last ditch effort to win with Kidd.
The nucleus of All Star starter Giannis, healthy Khris and healthy Eric won 44 games in the East.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

Could be wrong but me recollection is all the +/- and efficiency stuff all flipped once he came back. I don't want to go back and look though. Plus, I did have the "caveat" on there how it's not fully relevant as we hadn't quite become a good team yet. Plus of course the positive that was likely gained by not having Jabari, so another variable to put in there. Kind of why I had the caveat in the original post.

It's just odd to me that at that time and leading up to it the vast majority of the board used all these advanced stuff to show how underrated Mid was and what a great two player he was. 3 years laters, it's all being brushed aside like the guys sucks. Everything doesn't have to be so extreme. The guy is a good player (not superstar player) who got a ridiculous contract due to the economics of the league and the situation the team is in. Him being overpaid doesn't make him a garbage player. Think Joe Johnson when he got his contract, dude was still very good, just overpaid. Yet the narrative around him was to rip on him.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

In 08-09 the NBA salary cap was roughly half what it is today. For purposes related to this table the CBA hasn't changed enough to alter teams salary cap economics much.

2008/2009 #15-25 top highest paid guys in the league

15.Rashard Lewis $16,447,871 (age 29)
16.Michael Redd $15,780,000 (age 29)
17.Andrei Kirilenko $15,106,000 (age 27)
17.Pau Gasol $15,106,000 (age 28)
19.Amare Stoudemire $15,070,550 (age 26)
19.Yao Ming $15,070,550 (theoretically age 28)
21.Mike Bibby $14,983,603 (age 30)
22.Vince Carter $14,724,125 (age 32)
23.Zach Randolph $14,666,667 (age 27)
24.Gilbert Arenas $14,653,466 (age 27)
25.Ben Wallace $14,500,000 (age 34)

2019-2020 #15-#25 top highest paid guys in the league

15. Tobias Harris $32,742,000 (age 27)
16. Gordon Hayward $32,700,690 (age 29)
17. Mike Conley $32,511,623 (age 32)
18. Kyrie Irving $31,742,000 (age 27)
19. Khris Middleton $30,603,430 (age 28)
20. Paul Millsap $30,000,000 (age 34)
21. Damian Lillard $29,802,321 (age 29)
22. Kevin Love $28,942,830 (age 31)
23. Al Horford $28,000,000 (age 33)
23. Nikola Vucevic $28,000,000 (age 29)
25. DeMar DeRozan $27,739,975 (age 30)

Discuss? I really don't see what the big deal is except guys who post on message boards don't make much money so every generation of dudes in these tiers seem overpaid?

[paulpressey25]

The guy is a good player (not superstar player) who got a ridiculous contract due to the economics of the league and the situation the team is in. Him being overpaid doesn't make him a garbage player. Think Joe Johnson when he got his contract, dude was still very good, just overpaid. Yet the narrative around him was to rip on him.

Agree with premise of your post. But do want to offer some input on Joe Johnson.

Johnson was a 7-time all-star. He was a clear tier above Middleton in his ability to lead/carry a team IMHO.

In 2010, he signed a then record six-year/$119mm. He just turned 29. The first two years of that deal were fine. The next two years a bit dicey. The last two years a huge drag.

I think the contract that's worse, but a closer comparison is the 5/$180 that Tobias got. There is a pretty hillarious interchange with Simmons and Kevin O'Connor on the Tobias contract that starts at the 17 minute mark

https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2019/11/13/20962539/nba-10-game-awards-and-matt-damon-returns-the-sequel

It then moves into Brogdon discussion.

[mattg]

I’ll just say what I’ve said for years here. We won’t be worse with Middleton, we will just be different. Don’t think anyone with a brain suggests plugging someone else in and asking them to do exactly the same things Middleton does, that wouldn’t be successful. But, we have guys that can do some things Khris does whole also adding value in a number of areas that Khris doesn’t and be more or less the same exact caliber of team that just gets there in a different manner.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

The guy is a good player (not superstar player) who got a ridiculous contract due to the economics of the league and the situation the team is in. Him being overpaid doesn't make him a garbage player. Think Joe Johnson when he got his contract, dude was still very good, just overpaid. Yet the narrative around him was to rip on him.

Agree with premise of your post. But do want to offer some input on Joe Johnson.

Johnson was a 7-time all-star. He was a clear tier above Middleton in his ability to lead/carry a team IMHO.

In 2010, he signed a then record six-year/$119mm. He just turned 29. The first two years of that deal were fine. The next two years a bit dicey. The last two years a huge drag.

middleton runs from age 28-32. Johnson from age 29-34. there wont be two years that's a drag if youre gonna use jj as an example.

also.... jj was a 7 time allstar youre right..... but at the same age as middleton he was only two asg's up on him

honestly I hope middletons last year its perceived as an overpay. that means when we do him again at age 33 we get proper value. if he plays up to his contract and stacks 3-4 more asg's on his resume thru age 32 which is extremely likely imo….. then its his 3rd contract from age 33 on that could hammer us. you look at guys historically its age 33-34 where they fall off a cliff. rarely if ever before unless there catastrophic injury or character issues involved

[DingleJerry]

The guy is a good player (not superstar player) who got a ridiculous contract due to the economics of the league and the situation the team is in. Him being overpaid doesn't make him a garbage player. Think Joe Johnson when he got his contract, dude was still very good, just overpaid. Yet the narrative around him was to rip on him.

Agree with premise of your post. But do want to offer some input on Joe Johnson.

Johnson was a 7-time all-star. He was a clear tier above Middleton in his ability to lead/carry a team IMHO.

In 2010, he signed a then record six-year/$119mm. He just turned 29. The first two years of that deal were fine. The next two years a bit dicey. The last two years a huge drag.

I think the contract that's worse, but a closer comparison is the 5/$180 that Tobias got. There is a pretty hillarious interchange with Simmons and Kevin O'Connor on the Tobias contract that starts at the 17 minute mark

https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2019/11/13/20962539/nba-10-game-awards-and-matt-damon-returns-the-sequel

It then moves into Brogdon discussion.

Yup, wasn't really trying to compare them as player. Just the way Johnson was talked about basically as soon as he got the contract. so more just talking about the 'narrative' around him I think is comparable to what's happening to Mid here. Think of like this KM or JJ's ability to play basketball is the same whether they're being paid 22 per year or 35 per year. Their games are still the same. But if a guy gets overpaid they get ripped on.

[engelmartin]

Spoiler:

Middleton hit the lottery by being Giannis running mate for the last 6 years. Mids plays a perfect complementary role to Giannis, but, not one that couldn't be filled by a number of other guys. Put Bojan next to Giannis last few year and he probably gets a $150M contract from Bucks this past summer.

LOL No way bojan can carry the ball handling load, or the defensive responsibility khris has these past 6 years

I agree. Middleton really doesn't fit the offense we are trying to run with Giannis.. So his skillset is somewhat wasted. In terms of a guy who can catch and shoot the 3 and play good defense, Sterling should be able to get the job done. Khris really isn't a catch and shoot guy, he's a guy who needs to build his own rhythm.

Khris has the 2nd most catch and shoot attempts on the team, and basically tied for the 4th best efficiency on them

Khris 3.8 attempts a game 64.1 EFG%
Brook 5.1 attempts a game 41.5 EFG%
Korver 3.6 attempts a game 73.3 EFG%
Wes 3.3 Attempts a Game 54.5 EFG%
Pat 3.0 Attempts a Game 37.5 EFG%

In fact for players attempting over 3.5 Catch and Shoot 3s a game Khris is tied for 15th best EFG%

I am very happy he is out. He's really just kind of the worst.

Maybe we can trade him for Derozan? The spurs aren't going anywhere

You guys legit suck so much. Stop being a fan

Relax dude, we are simply having a conversation.

Khris's 3 point numbers in general are up over this first ten games, but it's ten games. Why dont you see how he did on catch and shoot over 70+ games last year and get back to me.

Also, the fact that a guy who is the highest paid on the team and is supposed to be our second best shooter is fourth in the situations that our offense is designed to generate isnt great.

We can be disappointed in Middleton, you can like him. Its fine

I meant I don't like him as a basketball player, I'm sure he's ok as a human being.

[higharc]

Step 1: showcase that the team is fine without Khris

Step 2: swap Khris for Klay on Dec 15. Warriors are tanking. Opportunity for them to shed some salary, get maybe a pick and a player that can be active 2 months sooner.

Too bad Warriors and Klay would never do it... Just sharing a dream I had...

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Step 1: showcase that the team is fine without Khris

Step 2: swap Khris for Klay on Dec 15. Warriors are tanking. Opportunity for them to shed some salary, get maybe a pick and a player that can be active 2 months sooner.

Too bad Warriors and Klay would never do it... Just sharing a dream I had...

doubt the board would go the 1-1 route youre suggesting. historically when we get 30 mil we can open up they like to go the discount good value route and spread it around. like really REALLY stock the roster deep with journeymen types on moveable contracts.

we have 15 dudes that can all play barely even get court time for them as it is now but the board loves those kinds of guys...…. and middleton still makes too much in that one slot. remember when we got mirza, delly, and Henson for 30+ mil a couple summers ago? that's more what this board likes. whole board was cracked up happy and1ing each other for days on end up until the season started.. I think if you want to move middleton and get some and1s we need to get some combo value deals coming back like that in your proposals. fatten this bitch up maybe 20 guys in uniform and it could really help your board rep if you go that route.

[RiotPunch]

Step 1: showcase that the team is fine without Khris

Step 2: swap Khris for Klay on Dec 15. Warriors are tanking. Opportunity for them to shed some salary, get maybe a pick and a player that can be active 2 months sooner.

Too bad Warriors and Klay would never do it... Just sharing a dream I had...

For DLo is more realistic, but that'll make many here throw up in their mouths a little bit. I, for one, would consider it though.

[Willie Colon]

Watch on YouTube

[vegaspacker]

Watch on YouTube

Really well done. He woofed on 'cartilage vs collagen' but strong work for a resident.

[th87]

The guy is a good player (not superstar player) who got a ridiculous contract due to the economics of the league and the situation the team is in. Him being overpaid doesn't make him a garbage player. Think Joe Johnson when he got his contract, dude was still very good, just overpaid. Yet the narrative around him was to rip on him.

Agree with premise of your post. But do want to offer some input on Joe Johnson.

Johnson was a 7-time all-star. He was a clear tier above Middleton in his ability to lead/carry a team IMHO.

In 2010, he signed a then record six-year/$119mm. He just turned 29. The first two years of that deal were fine. The next two years a bit dicey. The last two years a huge drag.

middleton runs from age 28-32. Johnson from age 29-34. there wont be two years that's a drag if youre gonna use jj as an example.

also.... jj was a 7 time allstar youre right..... but at the same age as middleton he was only two asg's up on him

honestly I hope middletons last year its perceived as an overpay. that means when we do him again at age 33 we get proper value. if he plays up to his contract and stacks 3-4 more asg's on his resume thru age 32 which is extremely likely imo….. then its his 3rd contract from age 33 on that could hammer us. you look at guys historically its age 33-34 where they fall off a cliff. rarely if ever before unless there catastrophic injury or character issues involved

Middleton is 28 going on 35. The contract becomes a total albatross as early as next year.

But the Bucks' choices were limited. How do you not run back almost the same team for another shot, in view of the fact that your main threat got considerably weaker? Would take balls of steel to forego that for maybe increased future upside (and that also contingent on Giannis re-signing).

Could do it if we were a 4 seed that got bounced early. But this is our best second chance in 18 years.

We should pray the cap goes up considerably, or Middleton becomes a gym rat so we can package him for a disgruntled star next year. This was pretty much the best we could do, and the best we can hope for.

[HKPackFan]

There was a simple way to keep everyone and not even pay the tax. Bucks should have packaged Leuer, Ilyasova with the 2024 FRP (top 5 protected) for cap space. Teams like Atlanta, Knicks etc would take it. Just take a look at the numbers.

1. Middleton.....$30,603,448
2. Giannis........$25,842,697
3. Brogdon.......$20,000,000
4. Bledsoe........$15,625,000
5. Lopez..........$12,093,024
6. Hill.............$9,133,907
7. Wilson.........$2,961,120
8. DDV............$2,905,800
9. Pat.............$1,723,050
10. Bender.......$1,678,854
11. Korver........$1,620,564
12. Brown........$1,618,520
13. Thanasis.....$1,445,697
-Hawes.......$2,007,058
-Sanders.....$1,865,546
-Hill..........$1,000,000
-total........$132,124,285

Bucks would be just under the tax with 13 players. They would need some really small discounts from Middleton, Brogdon, Lopez, Hill to complete their roster and stay under the $132,627,000 tax line. Actually most of the money needed could come from Brogdon, since his 4y/85mil would start at 18,9 from the Bucks with 8% raises.

Bledsoe.........Hill
Brogdon........DDV........Pat
Middleton......Brown.....Korver
Giannis.........Wilson.....Thanasis
Lopez...........Bender

We would be fine...

if you completely ignore cap holds and free agent signing procedure sure.

Just seeing Sanders name on this list kinda pissed me off again.

And then the realization it's still another couple years before his name is off the books.

Sorry Off Topic, but just saw that and became rather irritated.

[Baddy Chuck]

Fat, slow, doesn't care Middleton is putting up 19/6/3 on 60% TS% this season. I fully acknowledge his warts/inconsistencies but man you'd think he went full John Salmons or something reading these posts.

[emunney]

Fat, slow, doesn't care Middleton is putting up 19/6/3 on 60% TS% this season. I fully acknowledge his warts/inconsistencies but man you'd think he went full John Salmons or something reading these posts.

Amazing what consistent messaging will do.

[blazza18]

Most Middleton thing ever is to have 3 games with a TS% below 40 and 4 above 75, including an 89 vs Orlando.

The player(s) replacing him don't need to be him vs Orlando, but being better than Midds at his worst would be basically all we need.

[Antinomy]

bojan will turn 31 this season and is a dick. hed be 33 when Giannis supermax would kick in. the smart money is on building around bojan. **** unbelieveable forward thinking here

The clownery on our board is unmatched sometimes. BOJAN BOGDANOVIC?! This is the hill they’re dying on?

I guarantee that Utah would have Bojan on a plane to Milwaukee for Middleton before the phone call was over.