Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[pepe1991]

Can we NOT make talk about basketball personal?

I tend to belive i'm objective person in real life, here my cynical side always takes over and in most cases just as answer to, in my opinon over a top optimists who i find annoying in both real life and forum

[ezzzp]

Charlotte Hornets: Devonte’ Graham, PG (Kansas): Signed
Three-year, $4.07MM contract. First two years guaranteed.
Orlando Magic: Melvin Frazier, SF (Tulane): Signed
Three-year, $4.13MM contract. First two years guaranteed.

Spellman got $5M guaranteed but also has similar sctructure of a contract 2+1+1

and? that proves nothing to your point...in fact it only re-inforces my overarching point that the Magic do indeed use their 2nd round picks.

Pointing that out does nothing to your point that Magic didn't even try to get the player they wanted.

Pointing how easy it was get a draft pick around place where Graham was projected tells me that it's just hindsight and armchair GMing, since they did nothing to make sure they get him.

Also Magic usage of second round picks since Weltman and Hammond took over was nothing shorter but complete disaster.
Iwundu is 25 and does not belong in nba. Frazier is 23 and also does not belong in NBA, Jackson never played single sec of NBA.

You don't know what the FO did or didn't do. You are only pretending that you know and are coming to conclusions that are founded on that premise. It was reported that they gave him a promise, so the logic is that they would be proactive to secure him, not the other way around.

I totally disagree with your opinion of the FO use of 2nd round picks. I base my opinion on facts, not bias against the Magic.

I'll also form my own opinion about Frazier and Iwundu, and right now I do not agree with your opinion of either.

I like Iwundu, and I think there is a role for him in the NBA, especially if his 3PT shot continues to improve. There are always teams looking for a good defensive wing on their bench. Because of his injury, there isn't nearly enough data of a healthy/fully recovered Frazier to make assessment...but we do know that his reputation is as a very athletic super-long wing defender and we do know that in the G-L he shot 15-36 (.407) from NBA 3PT range.

[ezzzp]

No.

I said the Magic needed to be more proactive about acquiring Graham *if they valued Graham higher than everyone else in that 30-35 range*

If they were comfortable with letting the board play out and picking whoever was left, so be it.

If they weren't comfortable giving up future assets to acquire a guy like Graham in the top of the 2nd round, so be it.

But if they promised (which again, we don't have any legitimate concrete evidence this is the case) to select Graham at 35, it stands to reason that they DID value him more than other players in that range and a little bit of proactiveness would have ensured they got the guy they really wanted.

I also think you're way out of line to suggest that *I* think everything the Magic's front office does is a failure or have some or And-1 agenda. Outside of you, I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board in regards to the front office and what they've done.

But even with my optimism, I'm at least willing to accept that they are *capable* of messing things up or getting outmaneuvered on things. Something you, to date, have been wholeheartedly unwilling to do.

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

People that actually know me know that I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, and am objective to a fault. I look at all sides of the equation and analyze as much information possible to better understand what is actually going on. On this forum, looking at the reality of the situation and the facts gets you accused of trying to legitimize any FO move....its characterized as optimism because the facts are usually counter to pessimist agenda on this forum.

LOL

Calling Knightro a “pessimist” and yourself “objective to a fault” is possibly the funniest thing I’ll read on this forum in a while.

Of course, you do. Your biased hot takes are the ones I most often prove totally wrong with facts

[ezzzp]

Can we NOT make talk about basketball personal?

I tend to belive i'm objective person in real life, here my cynical side always takes over and in most cases just as answer to, in my opinon over a top optimists who i find annoying in both real life and forum

I find that in real life, chronic pessimists are usually losers who are boring and lack imagination because misery and lack of success is all they know.

[BadMofoPimp]

Can we NOT make talk about basketball personal?

I tend to belive i'm objective person in real life, here my cynical side always takes over and in most cases just as answer to, in my opinon over a top optimists who i find annoying in both real life and forum

I find that in real life, chronic pessimists are usually losers who are boring and lack imagination because misery and lack of success is all they know.

The Magic gonna provem all wrong!!!

[VFX]

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

People that actually know me know that I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, and am objective to a fault. I look at all sides of the equation and analyze as much information possible to better understand what is actually going on. On this forum, looking at the reality of the situation and the facts gets you accused of trying to legitimize any FO move....its characterized as optimism because the facts are usually counter to pessimist agenda on this forum.

LOL

Calling Knightro a “pessimist” and yourself “objective to a fault” is possibly the funniest thing I’ll read on this forum in a while.

Of course, you do. Your biased hot takes are the ones I most often prove totally wrong with facts

“fAcTs”

[ezzzp]

LOL

Calling Knightro a “pessimist” and yourself “objective to a fault” is possibly the funniest thing I’ll read on this forum in a while.

Of course, you do. Your biased hot takes are the ones I most often prove totally wrong with facts

“fAcTs”

yea, those things you hate

[MoMM]

Weltman HAS used the 2nd round and IS using a few roster spots for development...exactly how the teams of those cherry picked 2nd round anomalies used their roster:


2017

33 Wes Iwundu (player development)

35 traded for 2019 MEM 2nd + 2019 BRK 2nd: traded for Markelle Fultz (player development)

2018

35 Melvyn Frazier: season ending injury rookie year (player development)

41 Justin Jackson: season ending injury rookie yr, currently in G-L (player development)

2019

46 traded for 2020 LAL 2nd

So basically we have drafted the same player 3 times (Iwundu, Frazier and Jackson) and we traded #46 pick in 2019 for #60 in 2020. Sounds good to me...

[MoMM]

How do you know that 2018/2019 drafts didn't add anything relevant to our depth?

Okeke and Bamba are literally 21 years of age, one hasn't even played yet and the other is basically a rookie. Both are solid young prospects. Its absolutely ridiculous to write them off already.

Frazier and Jackson both suffered season ending injuries in their rookie year...that doesn't mean that their careers are over and will never develop. Nobody knows what they'll be in a couple of years.

I question again, has them added anything relevant? Maybe in the future, but so far, for a team trying to make the playoffs, they haven't added anything.

Players drafted after Mo in 2018 in top 10: Wendell Carter, Sexton, Knox, SGA.
Would you say that they haven't shown better skills than Mo so far and we would be better with them instead of Mo?

[SOUL]

I agree with Knightro/Xatticus in our second rounder usage.

Too soon on the Bamba/Okeke stuff though. Their fits we can argue (more so AFTER resigning Vuc and bringing in Aminu than at the time of the draft, which made sense), but talent wise, one isn't playing as much (half due to his playing level, half due to a reduced role on a team trying to compete), so I don't like comparing how players who are only a little more impactful for their team (at least in the case of Knox and Sexton) to Bamba right now. SGA is clearly a great pick, while I wanted WCJ in the draft actually, but even he has some holes in his game.

But yeah, I mean, read the Lauri vs Isaac posts just last year and now ask anybody if they'd trade Isaac for Lauri. 90% would say no. Maybe it's different again next year. It's fruitless discussion for early career comparisons IMO.

[PrimeThyme]

Personally, I can say with 100% confidence that SGA should have been the pick over Bamba. He checked every box. I admittedly didn't think he would be this good this early, but he was a player I wanted badly.

[SOUL]

Personally, I can say with 100% confidence that SGA should have been the pick over Bamba. He checked every box. I admittedly didn't think he would be this good this early, but he was a player I wanted badly.

I remember there being move back discussions to get him. Would've been nice.

[Knightro]

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

The problem with what you're saying is that you only quoted one specific part of a much larger post I made.

In that same post you quoted, I also said...

"Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it."

I gave them an out.

You're taking that out away by suggesting they *did* have Graham ranked higher than the rest of the players in that range, yet you're still steadfast in your belief that that they didn't get outmaneuvered.

My personal opinion on the matter is this.

If the Orlando Magic liked Devonte Graham *that* much, then they should (and could) have done more to ensure they were able to acquire him.

If they only liked him enough to pick him at 35, but under no circumstances were they willing to give up any future assets for him, that's totally fine. I'm willing to give them that out.

But you're suggesting they really did want Graham and awww shucks someone traded in front of them. That logic and that mentality simply doesn't work for me and many others on this board.

That's reactive behavior, not proactive behavior. That's "if everything falls into place and every other team does what we need them to do, we'll get what we want", not "if *we* do what we need to do, we'll get what we want and we're not concerned with what anyone else does".

I prefer the latter. Especially when we're talking about an area where pick movement is a lot easier like the 25 to 35 range of the draft.

[ezzzp]

Weltman HAS used the 2nd round and IS using a few roster spots for development...exactly how the teams of those cherry picked 2nd round anomalies used their roster:


2017

33 Wes Iwundu (player development)

35 traded for 2019 MEM 2nd + 2019 BRK 2nd: traded for Markelle Fultz (player development)

2018

35 Melvyn Frazier: season ending injury rookie year (player development)

41 Justin Jackson: season ending injury rookie yr, currently in G-L (player development)

2019

46 traded for 2020 LAL 2nd

So basically we have drafted the same player 3 times (Iwundu, Frazier and Jackson) and we traded #46 pick in 2019 for #60 in 2020. Sounds good to me...

It's only that if you ignore the realities of low draft position player development and how that relates to the value of long athletic defensive wings in the NBA.

The development of that prototype has produced many of the elite two-way players in the NBA right now. On top of that, that prototype also produces a lot of quality 3-D players. Good assets. Drafting for positional length (with defensive aptitude), especially in low draft situation, is a formula that is one of the more reliable strategies to net a decent asset.

Even in today's NBA, Most 1-way offense guys that enter the league wash out because coaches can't play them because they are defensibly unsustainable...and because offense doesn't always translate to the NBA, while defense normally does.

That doesn't mean that this FO won't draft outside of that prototype, afterall this whole discussion started because of their draft promise to D Graham who is small guard that can shoot.

All this noise is really just an easy oversimplification that's convenient for this forum's majority who are dead set on looking for ways to s**t on the Magic FO.

[ezzzp]

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

The problem with what you're saying is that you only quoted one specific part of a much larger post I made.

In that same post you quoted, I also said...

"Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it."

I gave them an out.

You're taking that out away by suggesting they *did* have Graham ranked higher than the rest of the players in that range, yet you're still steadfast in your belief that that they didn't get outmaneuvered.

My personal opinion on the matter is this.

If the Orlando Magic liked Devonte Graham *that* much, then they should (and could) have done more to ensure they were able to acquire him.

If they only liked him enough to pick him at 35, but under no circumstances were they willing to give up any future assets for him, that's totally fine. I'm willing to give them that out.

But you're suggesting they really did want Graham and awww shucks someone traded in front of them. That logic and that mentality simply doesn't work for me and many others on this board.

That's reactive behavior, not proactive behavior. That's "if everything falls into place and every other team does what we need them to do, we'll get what we want", not "if *we* do what we need to do, we'll get what we want and we're not concerned with what anyone else does".

I prefer the latter. Especially when we're talking about an area where pick movement is a lot easier like the 25 to 35 range of the draft.

That's not an out...that's a convenient binary set up to eliminate the other possibilities that go against the agenda embedded in your comment.

...and there is NO "aw shucks." You and the "others" are inventing little fantasy narratives to feed your bias. None of you have access to the FO or to those events...all those fantasy drama's are based on ZERO access.

In fact, the information that is publicly available, the Magic's promise to Graham, points to the opposite of what you are trying to spin.

[ezzzp]

Personally, I can say with 100% confidence that SGA should have been the pick over Bamba. He checked every box. I admittedly didn't think he would be this good this early, but he was a player I wanted badly.

I remember there being move back discussions to get him. Would've been nice.

I can just imagine this forum if the FO had done that. The outcry would have broken realGM....you can hear the rants about "how can they be so dumb to trade a high lottery pick which has so much more potential for producing a star blah blah blah"...and "they did it just to pick player with long wingspan."

[SOUL]

Personally, I can say with 100% confidence that SGA should have been the pick over Bamba. He checked every box. I admittedly didn't think he would be this good this early, but he was a player I wanted badly.

I remember there being move back discussions to get him. Would've been nice.

I can just imagine this forum if the FO had done that. The outcry would have broken realGM....you can hear the rants about "how can they be so dumb to trade a high lottery pick which has so much more potential for producing a star blah blah blah"...and "they did it just to pick player with long wingspan."

Most draft night stuff is overreaction anyway which is why I don't get married to a prospect before they're drafted and show what they show. I remember Isaac's comment about New York being a big deal which was super silly.

[MoMM]

The development of that prototype has produced many of the elite two-way players in the NBA right now. On top of that, that prototype also produces a lot of quality 3-D players.

Examples with 2nd round picks?

[MoMM]

Personally, I can say with 100% confidence that SGA should have been the pick over Bamba. He checked every box. I admittedly didn't think he would be this good this early, but he was a player I wanted badly.

I remember there being move back discussions to get him. Would've been nice.

I can just imagine this forum if the FO had done that. The outcry would have broken realGM....you can hear the rants about "how can they be so dumb to trade a high lottery pick which has so much more potential for producing a star blah blah blah"...and "they did it just to pick player with long wingspan."

Ok, we would complain a lot for one summer, but then we would see how good our FO was and have made the right choice.

[VFX]

The spirit of your initial comment clearly has no interest in presuming that the Magic did what the logic indicates they would do to pursue the player they wanted...and it was reported that they gave him a promise. The agenda to paint the FO as not being proactive is obvious to anyone with objectivity.

The problem with what you're saying is that you only quoted one specific part of a much larger post I made.

In that same post you quoted, I also said...

"Now what we don’t know is if they had Graham and Frazier rated evenly and when one came off the board, they just went to the next guy. If that’s the case, then so be it."

I gave them an out.

You're taking that out away by suggesting they *did* have Graham ranked higher than the rest of the players in that range, yet you're still steadfast in your belief that that they didn't get outmaneuvered.

My personal opinion on the matter is this.

If the Orlando Magic liked Devonte Graham *that* much, then they should (and could) have done more to ensure they were able to acquire him.

If they only liked him enough to pick him at 35, but under no circumstances were they willing to give up any future assets for him, that's totally fine. I'm willing to give them that out.

But you're suggesting they really did want Graham and awww shucks someone traded in front of them. That logic and that mentality simply doesn't work for me and many others on this board.

That's reactive behavior, not proactive behavior. That's "if everything falls into place and every other team does what we need them to do, we'll get what we want", not "if *we* do what we need to do, we'll get what we want and we're not concerned with what anyone else does".

I prefer the latter. Especially when we're talking about an area where pick movement is a lot easier like the 25 to 35 range of the draft.

That's not an out...that's a convenient binary set up to eliminate the other possibilities that go against the agenda embedded in your comment.

...and there is NO "aw shucks." You and the "others" are inventing little fantasy narratives to feed your bias. None of you have access to the FO or to those events...all those fantasy drama's are based on ZERO access.

In fact, the information that is publicly available, the Magic's promise to Graham, points to the opposite of what you are trying to spin.

You have the same amount of info we all do. You just choose to accept absolutely everything the FO does and chooses to tell you. Propaganda right?

There is enough information to know what moves were plausible in easily maneuverable 2nd round draft situations. They claim to promise a player and either didn’t take him due to their inactivity, or they were outbid and chose not to act. So which is it? Either way the FO let the draft order dictate their decisions for the duration of their tenure in Orlando. If not, why even make a statement in the first place?

How is that spin? It’s basically how they’ve handled the draft... They haven’t made moves up or strategically back in the same draft. They’ve either folded or made a selection.