Regular Season Game 15: Orlando Magic (6-8) at Indiana Pacers (8-6) - 7pm ET

[mattyBoi]

The nonsense has to stop, Isaac needs to be given free reign on offense. GREEN LIGHT and the ball needs to be pulled from the usual suspects.

[j-ragg]

Oh god the usual guys who **** on AG all suggesting to trade him of course. Then when he comes back and has a good game they'll be absent from game threads. But I hated on Fournier all last year and wanted to trade him so I guess some of its deserved. Not anti-trading AG, just from the same people over and over it feels like maybe you'd want to just give credit to some guys who did play well?

Anyway, great shooting from Isaac/Fournier/Ross/DJ. Pacers are a tough team and we were in it till the end w/ Iwundu and Birch starting. Moral victory if I've ever seen one.

[j-ragg]

The nonsense has to stop, Isaac needs to be given free reign on offense. GREEN LIGHT and the ball needs to be pulled from the usual suspects.

I love having a structured offense as much as the next guy, but sometimes you can see our younger guys just want to make a move and get to their shot but there's such an importance on running the set play. I guess it's what got us to the playoffs and Cliff knows best but as a fan I just want them to go at the defense and take what they can every trip down.

[jezzerinho]

Great game all round and they were very close to pinching it after getting in a hole early (the story of the Magic).

Gave us a great insight into what a Magic team would look like not playing inside-out Buddyball. The results were fairly encouraging, not in the sense that you wouldn't welcome Vooch back asap. More so that this team seems to have more flexibility and offensive breadth than you might have guessed watching them so far. Ross and DJ are really killing us right now. Otherwise we'd be towards the top of the East, imo.

[OrlandO]

I don’t hate Vucevic much individually. He’s is a VERY talented basketball player and there’s a place for him here.

I just hate how so many possessions turn into a painfully bad Fournier/Vucevic two man game.

The Magic just gotta figure out a way to separate those two.

If there’s a way to give me all the Fultz and Isaac I can handle and while mixing in good Vucevic in there... I’d take that.

Two man game is a fournier problem, not a fournier-vuc problem. Vuc passes to EVERYBODY. He passes to Isaac more than anybody on the team by far. He passes to Fultz second most on the team. He passes to AG second most on the team. Vuc passes to our PGs more than he does Fournier. Meanwhile Fournier passes to Vuc 41% of the time... it's a one way thing because he uses Vuc as a bailout. The key to less of that (and less of AG ISOs) is simple: put the ball in the point guard's hands... DJ is no longer starting PG, so it should be a no brainer to put it into Fultz's hands with the way he's handling, driving/finishing and passing. That will bring the best out of Fultz, Fournier, AG, Isaac and Vuc. Vuc should be secondary playmaker out of the post. I think Cliff knows this and he's just slowly letting the power dynamics play out. The spotlight being put on Fultz due to injuries will hopefully speed that up. I'm far more concerned with AG accepting less ball time than I am with Fournier.

[fendilim]

BRO Did you not read my post? And I failed to point out that Aaron Gordon didn't play and he's averaging 13 points per game, 6 rebounds, 3 assists. We lost by 5 points so if we had Aaron Gordon with his per game averages than that automatically would have resulted in a Magic win. It did hurt to lose the game without VUC cause now people on here that love that guy will try to protect him.

Lmao Ag would have taken points and possessions away from Isaac . The takeaway from the game is we don’t need Ag because Isaac plays better without Ag , has nothing to do with Vuc . We still need vuc , ag is the guy we need to trade

BINGO..and it's not even a knock on AG, it's just a fortunate abundance for us to work from. Aminu can certainly pick up AG minutes and stats and Okeke is on deck long-term. AG will be great on a team that needs him.

lol its sad when you say aminu can do what someone we pinned our hopes on...

At least AG can dribble the ball. Aminu shouldnt even be allowed to drive to the basket unless he cuts. lol

[Knightro]

[The Real Dalic]

Umm we were just fine tonight without VUC. We were getting blow out in the 1st half and came back in the 2nd half and almost won the game. That game winning 3 pointer HAD NOTHING TO DO WHETHER VUC IS ON OR OFF THE COURT. VUC WOULDN'T BE GUARDING HOLIDAY. There were issues from that game that would still occur whether VUC played tonight or not. So I saw tonight the Magic are definitely better without VUC.

ok...so you don't care we lost the game......out of everything you saw tonight the conclusion you came to was to continue to push the narrative that all the cold hard facts and stats don't back up. What does vuc have anything to do with what happened tonight?

BRO Did you not read my post? And I failed to point out that Aaron Gordon didn't play and he's averaging 13 points per game, 6 rebounds, 3 assists. We lost by 5 points so if we had Aaron Gordon with his per game averages than that automatically would have resulted in a Magic win. It did hurt to lose the game without VUC cause now people on here that love that guy will try to protect him.

Your hate boner for Vuc is strong. I mean, we know you and Skin hate him irrationally since you two brought the pom poms out when he got hurt like the true gentlemen you both are.

So let me get this straight, AG who's been awful this year and shooting it extremely poorly was a major reason we lost. But not having our ALL STAR (had to use that word not only to remind you of how great he is, but also because it really "triggers" a lot of the Vuc haters here) who averages 17ppg, 12rebs, and 3asts was holding us back? Okay, you definitely have that backwards. It's AG who plays hero ball. Vuc has the IQ to let the game come to him.

[MagicFan101]

Man shot out to Pacers and their coach.
At one point they missed like 3 of 5 starters and kept playing hard. Right now they are in Magic type situation with both star players being out.

First, yes absolutely 100% a big shout out to the Pacers coach. It doesn't matter how you slice it, losing those names and still holding on to the #6 spot in the East with an above .500 record is a great reflection on him.

BUT ... before people spin that around and assume not doing equally as well instantly means Cliff has been bad, it is worth digging in and seeing if these really are apples to apples comps.


Based on the lineups last night, the Pacers tossed out a much more experienced group.

Pacers starting 5:
261.8 games played
5.0 seasons played
6,318.54 minutes played

Orlando starting 5:
174.0 games played
4.0 seasons played
4,169.2 minutes played

There are no moral victories. However, what I really hope to see from games like this where we are dealt a bad hand is clear growth from the youngsters and a competitive showing. We saw both which are also credits earned by the coach.

[JF5]

Oh god the usual guys who **** on AG all suggesting to trade him of course. Then when he comes back and has a good game they'll be absent from game threads. But I hated on Fournier all last year and wanted to trade him so I guess some of its deserved. Not anti-trading AG, just from the same people over and over it feels like maybe you'd want to just give credit to some guys who did play well?

Anyway, great shooting from Isaac/Fournier/Ross/DJ. Pacers are a tough team and we were in it till the end w/ Iwundu and Birch starting. Moral victory if I've ever seen one.

Hate to break it to you but it's clear as day that Issac and Gordon can't play together. Both of them playing a similar style and with Gordon having a role that will eventually be Isaac's probably in the next few weeks when he comes back he'll be relegated to being more of a 3 and D guy... And with him still being a terrible shooter and not being able to effectively space the floor for Fultz/Issac/Vucevic and not having the BBIQ to play within himself I can't see him lasting too much longer here. At this point the writing is on the wall and roles are being much more defined with players emerging you have to surround them with individuals who know their role and play with high BBIQs and are specialist. And again AG isn't necessarily really good at anything. He's either below average to decent when it comes to most of his skills besides man to man defense.

[Popsicle1228]

Watch on YouTube

Fultz is already a solid Starter in the NBA right now at 21 years old but man.......If he can figure out the mechanics of the 3 point shot, get it a bit more smoother and get rid of the load up at the beginning and become respectable from the 3.....i don't need elite, would love it but all fultz needs is to be respectable from 3 when they can't really leave you wide open or go under screens. It'll open up a whole new world for him, with his athleticism/strength/length you see how he's able to finish at a high level but imagine with his vision what he can do after he beats his man off the dribble? we robbed philly, should be locked up for grand larceny in the 1st degree.

If his shoulder ever recovers (a big if) to the point that he has a respectable 3 point shot, I believe Fultz will be a perennial All-Star.

[Popsicle1228]

Umm we were just fine tonight without VUC. We were getting blow out in the 1st half and came back in the 2nd half and almost won the game. That game winning 3 pointer HAD NOTHING TO DO WHETHER VUC IS ON OR OFF THE COURT. VUC WOULDN'T BE GUARDING HOLIDAY. There were issues from that game that would still occur whether VUC played tonight or not. So I saw tonight the Magic are definitely better without VUC.

You utilize a sample size of a singular game in which we LOST as proof to your claim that we are a better team without Vuc. Now I’m convinced

[Rainwater]

to me.... yes.... I agree that it is great when young players take opportunities and shine. Loved what i saw out of fultz and JI last night. But instead of immediately saying "Trade" I would rather know that AG, VUC and Fournier realize the potential just as much and make the right plays that allows them all to maximize their skills and get the best out of all of them.... even at the risk of their own numbers. This is different than Toronto and Indiana's step ups... because Fultz and JI are starters. Raps and Pacers seem to be strengthening their benches more than anything else. So if their pride can be set aside and make room for the others.... super. A team that would be all about winning would embrace their abilities balance everything out giving the best players on a given night the opportunity to lift the team and possibly take a supporting role to get the win. IF we can't get that to happen... THEN i can see the move necessary to balance the lineups

The problem is as long as those three are here they will continue to run the offence through them and I understand that makes sense for many reasons. However, for the the young guys to grow and learn through their mistakes they need the opportunity, that won't be done with Evan, Vuc, and AG.

[Rainwater]

Oh god the usual guys who **** on AG all suggesting to trade him of course. Then when he comes back and has a good game they'll be absent from game threads. But I hated on Fournier all last year and wanted to trade him so I guess some of its deserved. Not anti-trading AG, just from the same people over and over it feels like maybe you'd want to just give credit to some guys who did play well?

Anyway, great shooting from Isaac/Fournier/Ross/DJ. Pacers are a tough team and we were in it till the end w/ Iwundu and Birch starting. Moral victory if I've ever seen one.

I don't think anyone hates AG, just like Evan and Vuc, "AG haters" realize while he is a good player he is just not a great player. I think that is just the reality of the situation.

Guys like Evan, Vuc, and AG will have great games (hell, Vuc was an all-star last year) but you won't get far with them as your core guys.

[ezzzp]

Watch on YouTube

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[penny_nz]

I won't lie to you. I know there will be bumps in the road to come, but man was it refreshing to watch a game where our offense wasn't running though Vuc. If Fultz is on the court I want everything to run through him. He and Isaac are already building a real connection and that pairing gives me more hope as a Magic fan then I have had in 9 years.

I don’t hate Vucevic much individually. He’sa VERY talented basketball player and there’s a place for him here.

I just hate how so many possessions turn into a painfully bad Fournier/Vucevic two man game.

The Magic just gotta figure out a way to separate those two.

If there’s a way to give me all the Fultz and Isaac I can handle and while mixing in good Vucevic in there... I’d take that.

+1 summed it up really well. Same conundrum with AG and Isaac. There's only a certain amount of touches and shots to go round, I honestly don't know what I want from the latter situation, because I've been a big fan of Gordon since we drafted him, and I'd love to find a way to make it work alongside Isaac. But watching Isaac get all those touches and the variety on his finishes was refreshing and right now I want to see us feed him and see where he goes. Its the only way he will grow and we find out what we have.

[ezzzp]

I won't lie to you. I know there will be bumps in the road to come, but man was it refreshing to watch a game where our offense wasn't running though Vuc. If Fultz is on the court I want everything to run through him. He and Isaac are already building a real connection and that pairing gives me more hope as a Magic fan then I have had in 9 years.

I don’t hate Vucevic much individually. He’sa VERY talented basketball player and there’s a place for him here.

I just hate how so many possessions turn into a painfully bad Fournier/Vucevic two man game.

The Magic just gotta figure out a way to separate those two.

If there’s a way to give me all the Fultz and Isaac I can handle and while mixing in good Vucevic in there... I’d take that.

+1 summed it up really well. Same conundrum with AG and Isaac. There's only a certain amount of touches and shots to go round, I honestly don't know what I want from the latter situation, because I've been a big fan of Gordon since we drafted him, and I'd love to find a way to make it work alongside Isaac. But watching Isaac get all those touches and the variety on his finishes was refreshing and right now I want to see us feed him and see where he goes. Its the only way he will grow and we find out what we have.

• Vucevic/Fournier 2-Man line-up numbers:

+5.5 Net Rating
110.7 Offensive Rating
105.3 Defensive Rating
53.9 PIE

• Fournier in PnR as Ball Handler (which is almost entirely with Vucevic):

Ranks in the top 85.6th percentile of the NBA in this play, with a .540 eFG% / 1.04 PPP

Fultz ranks in the 56.1st percentile, with a .464 eFG% / 0.88 PPP

• Vucevic in PnR (which is mostly with Fournier as the ball handler)

Ranks in the top 73.7 percentile of the NBA in this play, with a .640 eFG% / 1.24 PPP

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• Traditional



...I get the desire to have Fultz being the attacker on every play, but no team does that unless that ball handler is elite scorer...which of course Fultz is not. It is better to have two on-ball guys (a primary and a secondary) oscillating.

[yoyojw17]

I don’t hate Vucevic much individually. He’s is a VERY talented basketball player and there’s a place for him here.

I just hate how so many possessions turn into a painfully bad Fournier/Vucevic two man game.

The Magic just gotta figure out a way to separate those two.

If there’s a way to give me all the Fultz and Isaac I can handle and while mixing in good Vucevic in there... I’d take that.

Two man game is a fournier problem, not a fournier-vuc problem. Vuc passes to EVERYBODY. He passes to Isaac more than anybody on the team by far. He passes to Fultz second most on the team. He passes to AG second most on the team. Vuc passes to our PGs more than he does Fournier. Meanwhile Fournier passes to Vuc 41% of the time... it's a one way thing because he uses Vuc as a bailout. The key to less of that (and less of AG ISOs) is simple: put the ball in the point guard's hands... DJ is no longer starting PG, so it should be a no brainer to put it into Fultz's hands with the way he's handling, driving/finishing and passing. That will bring the best out of Fultz, Fournier, AG, Isaac and Vuc. Vuc should be secondary playmaker out of the post. I think Cliff knows this and he's just slowly letting the power dynamics play out. The spotlight being put on Fultz due to injuries will hopefully speed that up. I'm far more concerned with AG accepting less ball time than I am with Fournier.

Bravooooo.... Great analysis. And I've been agreeing with the shift. Fultz will slowly become the puppet master and things will look a whole lot different. After watching fultz with the ball in his hands... And some of the passes he was able to make... He should be given that chance and players are going to get great looks at the basket.