RealGM All-Time Franchise Ranking - #7

[trex_8063]

1. Minneapolis/Los Angeles Lakers
2. Boston Celtics
3. Dallas Chaparrals, San Antonio Spurs
4. Chicago Bulls
5. Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers
6. Philly/SF/Golden State Warriors

.

[trex_8063]

Well, I'm tentatively going to go with the Miami Heat for my pick on this one.

The best team left on the table in both % of seasons in the finals and % of seasons as champions (are actually 3rd all-time [behind only Lakers/Celtics] in both of these things).
They're tied with the Pistons and Pacers as the best of all teams left in terms of titles (though all of those were in the ABA for the Pacers).
Among teams remaining on the table, only the Blazers and the Pacers have a better % of seasons in the playoffs. But that's mostly due to ABA success for the Pacers, and the Blazers have just 1 title (3 finals appearances).

The more I look at it, though one team that does seem really close (I reserve the right to change my pick before the deadline, as it does seem super-close now that I'm looking at it) is the Detroit Pistons. I'll scrutinize that a bit more; it's possible I'll end up switching my pick.

[Odinn21]

Heat; 31 completed seasons, .520 win rate, 20 playoffs appearances (.645), .554 win rate in playoffs (124-100), 11.2 games per playoffs, 5 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Rockets; 52 completed seasons, .529 win rate, 33 playoffs appearances (.635), .494 win rate in playoffs (153-157), 9.4 games per playoffs, 4 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships
Pistons; 71 completed seasons, .486 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.592), .514 win rate in playoffs (189-179), 8.8 games per playoffs, 7 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Knicks; 73 completed seasons, .485 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.575), .500 win rate in playoffs (186-186), 8.9 games per playoff, 8 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships

Well, going with the Heat. I think this one's obvious seeing all these.

BTW, Blazers have a very bad W-L record in the playoffs with 116-147 (.441). And they played 7.5 games per playoffs appearance. That's not impressive. This is kind of diminishes their good playoffs to number of season ratio.

Edit; I added games per playoffs number to show how far those teams got. Here's numbers of the teams already voted in;
1. Lakers 12.2 games per playoff
2. Celtics 11.6
3. Spurs 9.6
4. Bulls 9.8
5. Sixers 9.0
6. Warriors 10.0

[penbeast0]

Heat; 31 completed seasons, .520 win rate, 20 playoffs appearances (.645), .554 win rate in playoffs (124-100), 11.2 games per playoffs, 5 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Rockets; 52 completed seasons, .529 win rate, 33 playoffs appearances (.635), .494 win rate in playoffs (153-157), 9.4 games per playoffs, 4 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships
Pistons; 71 completed seasons, .486 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.592), .514 win rate in playoffs (189-179), 8.8 games per playoffs, 7 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Knicks; 73 completed seasons, .485 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.575), .500 win rate in playoffs (186-186), 8.9 games per playoff, 8 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships

Well, going with the Heat. I think this one's obvious seeing all these.

BTW, Blazers have a very bad W-L record in the playoffs with 116-147 (.441). And they played 7.5 games per playoffs appearance. That's not impressive. This is kind of diminishes their good playoffs to number of season ratio.

Edit; I added games per playoffs number to show how far those teams got. Here's numbers of the teams already voted in;
1. Lakers 12.2 games per playoff
2. Celtics 11.6
3. Spurs 9.6
4. Bulls 9.8
5. Sixers 9.0
6. Warriors 10.0

How do the Sonics/Thunder stack up other than having only 1 ring? Better than Portland I would hope.

[Dr Positivity]

This one is pretty close.

Heat and Pistons have two high peaks. Both the Bad Boys and Heatles won 2 titles and almost won others. The Heat made 2 other finals, but none of their losses were as close as 88 Pistons. Plus the Pistons had another Game 7 loss in 05. And for whatever it's worth, they lost the 55 finals Game 7 by 1 point. The Pistons 6 best years are 3 titles and 3 game 7 losses - pretty solid. The Heat have been the more consistent franchise but have been around for less time. The recent Pistons decade is a big black mark. The Pistons before Isiah were mostly a dreck with a few stars like Lanier and Bing, until go back to Fort Wayne's two finals in 55 and 56 - hey, at least it's the shot clock era and they went down to legit players like Schayes and Arizin/Gola/Johnston

The Knicks actually had a case as they have an arguable best peak, and solid accomplishments with 2 titles and 3 other finals in the shot clock era. Of course, they laid the smelliest of turds this century. With an overall titles/finals record pretty close to Heat and Pistons, I would lean towards the more modern teams.

I'm impressed by the Rockets franchise, if you consider how many good seasons they had with Tmac/Yao or Harden this century without ever making a finals. The 2018 SF was the real finals, though. They made 2 finals in 80s as well. Still, the 94 and 95 titles are weaker than the best Heat or Pistons accomplishments, to go along with just having less titles overall.

Vote Detroit Pistons by a narrow margin over Heat because 88 and 05 losses were so impressive in addition to their three titles, and I still value their earlier decades more than not existing

[penbeast0]

My criteria for this project is what franchise would I most like to have been a fan of (instead of a Wizards fan, sigh). This primarily means consistent winning teams that compete for the playoffs, deep playoff runs, particularly finals, and championships. To a lesser degree it also is an aesthetic judgement about stars, fun team or teams that I didn't like, etc. but I find that I have not been valuing those factors much if at all when I actually make my picks . . . or I sure wouldn't have picked the Heat since I disliked the Riley team that tried to outthug the Ewing Knicks, and disliked even more the LeBron led masters of entitlement, the Heatles though I did root for the Shaq/Wade title run. But that factor is lurking in the background even if it's not a primary one too.

Thunder/Sonics in 52 seasons have the highest regular season win% of any remaining franchise at .542. They haven't had the playoff success of Miami (.497, behind Heat and Pistons, ahead of Rockets and PAcers). They have 31 playoff appearances (.596 playoff appearance percentage), 3 finals losses in 3 different eras (Sikma/Gus/DJ, Payton/Kemp, Westbrook/Durant), and 1 championship (the 70s era team avenging a prior year loss to Washington).

I think they are competitive with Detroit, although they haven't been around as long, and a bit ahead of the Rockets and Pacers but I have to go with Miami for this round.

Vote Miami Heat

[trex_8063]

Heat; 31 completed seasons, .520 win rate, 20 playoffs appearances (.645), .554 win rate in playoffs (124-100), 11.2 games per playoffs, 5 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Rockets; 52 completed seasons, .529 win rate, 33 playoffs appearances (.635), .494 win rate in playoffs (153-157), 9.4 games per playoffs, 4 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships
Pistons; 71 completed seasons, .486 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.592), .514 win rate in playoffs (189-179), 8.8 games per playoffs, 7 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Knicks; 73 completed seasons, .485 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.575), .500 win rate in playoffs (186-186), 8.9 games per playoff, 8 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships

Well, going with the Heat. I think this one's obvious seeing all these.

BTW, Blazers have a very bad W-L record in the playoffs with 116-147 (.441). And they played 7.5 games per playoffs appearance. That's not impressive. This is kind of diminishes their good playoffs to number of season ratio.

Edit; I added games per playoffs number to show how far those teams got. Here's numbers of the teams already voted in;
1. Lakers 12.2 games per playoff
2. Celtics 11.6
3. Spurs 9.6
4. Bulls 9.8
5. Sixers 9.0
6. Warriors 10.0

While I kinda like the "avg games per playoff" stat for greater completeness, it's important to keep in mind that it will directly favour more recent franchises (when the playoffs were a longer affair in general). EDIT: it also theoretically rewards teams for struggling to finish off a series (winning 4-3 or 4-2) as apposed to teams who were mostly sweeping their opponents ("fo-fo-fo").

[trex_8063]

This will seem a little strange [since I already cast a tentative vote for the Heat], but for purposes of quality-checking my thinking, I'm going to compare the Pistons (who I mentioned were possibly the biggest competition for the Heat) and the Warriors (who are already voted in).
I'm doing so because I felt the Warriors/Heat were super-close in the last thread, and went with the Warriors by the slimmest of margins. As such, I just want to see how the Pistons compare to them (will note where they rank in the top 7, since this is the #7 spot)....

They've been around basically the same length of time (73 seasons for the Warriors, 71 for the Pistons).

rs Win%
Warriors - .485
Pistons - .487

Total Playoff appearances
Warriors - 35
Pistons - 42 (tied for 6th all-time)

% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Warriors - .479
Pistons - .592

Seasons advancing to Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - 17 (tied for 4th all-time)
Pistons - 17 (ditto)

% of Seasons in Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - .233 (7th all-time)
Pistons - .239 (6th all-time)

Championships
Warriors - 6 (tied for 3rd all-time)
Pistons - 3 (tied for 6th all-time)

Finals appearances
Warriors - 11 (3rd all-time)
Pistons - 7 (6th all-time)

% of Seasons in Finals
Warriors - .151 (4th all-time)
Pistons - .099

Post-merger Championships
Warriors - 3
Pistons - 3

Post-merger Finals Appearances
Warriors - 5
Pistons - 5

Post-merger Conf/Div Finals Appearances
Warriors - 5
Pistons - 11


Hmm......when I lay it out like that, the Warriors' advantage----which hinges almost entirely on added titles and finals appearances, most of which occurred pre-merger [a little was even pre-NBA, technically]----appears pretty minimal (almost negligible). Though they do have an advantage in terms of all-time great teams and "all-time roster" sort of considerations, too.

Still, this has me second-guessing my Heat pick. Will maybe look for a new means of comparing the Pistons/Heat.

[Owly]

Seasons advancing to Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - 17 (tied for 4th all-time)
Pistons - 17 (ditto)

% of Seasons in Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - .233 (7th all-time)
Pistons - .239 (6th all-time)

How are you dealing with playoffs with 3 conferences or not within conference/division playoffs here?

[trex_8063]

Seasons advancing to Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - 17 (tied for 4th all-time)
Pistons - 17 (ditto)

% of Seasons in Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - .233 (7th all-time)
Pistons - .239 (6th all-time)

How are you dealing with playoffs with 3 conferences or not within conference/division playoffs here?

wrt the first part of your question (3 conferences), I'm basically ignoring it. Unless I'm mistaken, there was only ONE season ('50) in which there were three conferences [divisions] in which a team could reach any of the three div finals. So in a broad context (team histories over DECADES of existence), I'm being a pinch lazy and simply overlooking that very brief deviation from the norm. And particularly within the context of the above comparison (both teams were around in '50), I don't think it's noteworthy.

And I guess I'm not sure what you're asking in the second half of that sentence. Can you clarify?

EDIT: btw, if you find the time, we'd love to have your input and votes in this [or any] project on a consistent basis. Perhaps especially in a project like this (where I think participation will be very small, so the addition of a voice like yours adds that much more weight/credibility to the project).

[Owly]

Seasons advancing to Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - 17 (tied for 4th all-time)
Pistons - 17 (ditto)

% of Seasons in Conf/Div Finals
Warriors - .233 (7th all-time)
Pistons - .239 (6th all-time)

How are you dealing with playoffs with 3 conferences or not within conference/division playoffs here?

wrt the first part of your question (3 conferences), I'm basically ignoring it. Unless I'm mistaken, there was only ONE season ('50) in which there were three conferences [divisions] in which a team could reach any of the three div finals. So in a broad context (team histories over DECADES of existence), I'm being a pinch lazy and simply overlooking that very brief deviation from the norm. And particularly within the context of the above comparison (both teams were around in '50), I don't think it's noteworthy.

And I guess I'm not sure what you're asking in the second half of that sentence. Can you clarify?

EDIT: btw, if you find the time, we'd love to have your input and votes in this [or any] project on a consistent basis. Perhaps especially in a project like this (where I think participation will be very small, so the addition of a voice like yours adds that much more weight/credibility to the project).

Thinking of '47 BAA playoff where play was across conferences (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 then winners of 2 and 3 clash for rights to face winners of 1). This model was retained in '48.

[trex_8063]

How are you dealing with playoffs with 3 conferences or not within conference/division playoffs here?

wrt the first part of your question (3 conferences), I'm basically ignoring it. Unless I'm mistaken, there was only ONE season ('50) in which there were three conferences [divisions] in which a team could reach any of the three div finals. So in a broad context (team histories over DECADES of existence), I'm being a pinch lazy and simply overlooking that very brief deviation from the norm. And particularly within the context of the above comparison (both teams were around in '50), I don't think it's noteworthy.

And I guess I'm not sure what you're asking in the second half of that sentence. Can you clarify?

EDIT: btw, if you find the time, we'd love to have your input and votes in this [or any] project on a consistent basis. Perhaps especially in a project like this (where I think participation will be very small, so the addition of a voice like yours adds that much more weight/credibility to the project).

Thinking of '47 BAA playoff where play was across conferences (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 then winners of 2 and 3 clash for rights to face winners of 1). This model was retained in '48.

I guess I never noticed the weird playoff structure there----which, for anyone else who wasn't aware......
*The #1 seeds in each division actually get a bye thru the first round ("Quarterfinals"), while the #2 seeds face each other and the #3 seeds face each other.
**Then in the SECOND round ("Semifinals") the #1 seeds face-off, while whichever two winners from the first round play each other. Whichever two teams emerge from this play in the finals.

The only thing I guess this changes for me is that I'm going to credit a couple more teams with "conf/div finals appearances" for those teams [who haven't already been credited---like the Warriors ('47 and '48)----because they reached the finals].......because I'd previously just been reading thru franchise indexes: so where I read "Lost Semis" in either '47 or '48, I wasn't crediting that as a conf/div finals appearance (which is essentially what it is: the round immediately before the finals).

fwiw, this doesn't alter any of the numbers cited above for the Warriors or the Pistons. EDIT: the only thing it changes among the 30 teams in existence that we're [principally] considering in the project is that the Knicks are credited with one additional CF appearance.

[Fadeaway_J]

Voting Heat once again, I've explained my reasoning in earlier rounds.

[trex_8063]

The following is sort of a thought-exercise for my own benefit in comparing the Heat to the Pistons (my top two candidates), but I'll post it here all the same....

So, the Heat have been around 31 years; and those same 31 years were fairly impressive for the Pistons as well. So I'm just going to start there by comparing the Heat to the '89-'19 Pistons:

rs Win%
Heat - .519
cherry-picked Pistons - .523

Playoff Appearances
Heat - 20
cp Pistons - 18

Conference Finals Appearances
Heat - 7
cp Pistons - 9

Finals Appearances
Heat - 5
cp Pistons - 4

Titles
Heat - 3
cp Pistons - 3

^^^^That is awfully close. About as close to a tie as we can get, imo. Gun to my head, I suppose I might side ever so slightly with the Heat, as I think the one extra finals appearance [loss] plus two additional playoff appearances probably marginally outweighs the two additional CF appearances the Pistons have.

But I would say that (as per my reasoning in the last thread), that if the other 40 years of the Pistons' history is AT ALL above average, I should favor them in this comparison. If they are below average, I should probably favor the Heat. If they're average, it's back to the drawing ole' board.
So let's look the '49-'88 Pistons (and for the proportional avgs, I'll state where that would rank them all-time among the 30 teams in existence, and also what the median [halfway between 15th and 16th] is)......

rs Win%
.458 (would be 24th all-time. Median: .497)

% of Seasons in the Playoffs
.600 (would be 14th all-time. Median: .5835)

% of Seasons in the Conf/Div Finals
.200 (would be 11th all-time. Median: .1585)

% of Seasons in the Finals
.075 (would be 15th all-time. Median: .068)

% of Seasons as Champions
.000 (well, that would tie them with 9 other franchises who have also never won. Median: .020)


Well.......crap. That does look kinda average overall; or at best very very marginally above average (which doesn't help a ton, given I was ever so slightly favoring the Heat for the other 31 years). Back to the drawing board, I guess......

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Heat; 31 completed seasons, .520 win rate, 20 playoffs appearances (.645), .554 win rate in playoffs (124-100), 11.2 games per playoffs, 5 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Rockets; 52 completed seasons, .529 win rate, 33 playoffs appearances (.635), .494 win rate in playoffs (153-157), 9.4 games per playoffs, 4 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships
Pistons; 71 completed seasons, .486 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.592), .514 win rate in playoffs (189-179), 8.8 games per playoffs, 7 NBA Finals, 3 NBA Championships
Knicks; 73 completed seasons, .485 win rate, 42 playoffs appearances (.575), .500 win rate in playoffs (186-186), 8.9 games per playoff, 8 NBA Finals, 2 NBA Championships

Well, going with the Heat. I think this one's obvious seeing all these.

BTW, Blazers have a very bad W-L record in the playoffs with 116-147 (.441). And they played 7.5 games per playoffs appearance. That's not impressive. This is kind of diminishes their good playoffs to number of season ratio.

Edit; I added games per playoffs number to show how far those teams got. Here's numbers of the teams already voted in;
1. Lakers 12.2 games per playoff
2. Celtics 11.6
3. Spurs 9.6
4. Bulls 9.8
5. Sixers 9.0
6. Warriors 10.0

The overlooked team is the Bucks. They are third in win rate. They dominated for one season and got a championship.
They were a strong team in the 1980s and won some playoff series

[trex_8063]

The overlooked team is the Bucks. They are third in win rate. They dominated for one season and got a championship.
They were a strong team in the 1980s and won some playoff series

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part or where you're getting that from. As far as I can tell, they don't rank third in anything even if excluding all the team already voted in.
Among the measures I've been citing (listing only those teams who are still on the table).....

rs Win%
Sonics/Thunder - .542
Jazz - .539
Trailblazers - .538
Suns - .529
Rockets - .528
Heat - .519
Bucks - .515

Playoff Appearances
Hawks - 46
Pistons - 42
Knicks - 42
Trailblazers - 35
Pacers - 35 (26 NBA, 9 ABA)
Nuggets - 34 (25 NBA, 9 ABA)
Rockets - 33
Sonics/Thunder - 31
Bucks - 31

% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Trailblazers - .714
Pacers - . 673 (.605 NBA, 1.000 ABA)
Hawks - .657
Nuggets - .654 (.581 NBA, 1.000 ABA)
Heat - .645
Rockets - .635
Jazz - .622
Bucks - .608

Conf/Div Finals Appearances
Pistons - 17
Knicks - 16
Pacers - 15 (8 NBA, 7 ABA)
Hawks - 13
Sonics/Thunder - 10
Bucks - 9
Suns - 9

% of Seasons in Conf/Div Finals
Pacers - .288 (.186 NBA, .778 ABA)
Pistons - .239
Heat - .226
Knicks - .219
Sonics/Thunder - .192
Hawks - .186
Suns - .176
Bucks - .176

Finals Appearances
Knicks - 8
Pistons - 7
Pacers - 6 (1 NBA, 5 ABA)
Heat - 5
Cavaliers - 5
Nets - 5 (2 NBA, 3 ABA)
Sonics/Thunder - 4
Hawks - 4
Rockets - 4
Bullets/Wizards - 4
Trailblazers - 3
Mavericks - 2
Bucks - 2
Suns - 2
Jazz - 2
Magic - 2

% of Seasons in the Finals
Heat - .161
Pacers - .115 (.023 NBA, .556 ABA)
Knicks - .110
Cavaliers - .102
Pistons - .099
Nets - .096 (.047 NBA, .333 ABA)
Sonics/Thunder - .077
Rockets - .077
Bullets/Wizards - .069
Magic - .067
Trailblazers - .061
Hawks - .057
Mavericks - .051
Jazz - .044
Raptors - .042
Bucks - .039
Suns - .039

Championships
Heat - 3
Pistons - 3
Pacers - 3 (all in ABA)
Knicks - 2
Rockets - 2
Nets - 2 (both in ABA)
Cavaliers - 1
Sonics/Thunder - 1
Trailblazers -1
Bucks - 1
Bullets/Wizards - 1
Mavericks -1
Hawks - 1
Raptors -1
Royals/Kings - 1


I'll stop there, but I'm sure not seeing where they rank third (or even close); again, even if only ranking among those teams still on the table. And I'd note it's mostly the same groups of teams ranking ahead of them in each category, too (which, to me, indicates they're not quite in the same tier as those franchises in an all-time sense).

[trex_8063]

fwiw, I'm probably sticking with my initial gut pick for the Heat, since upon closer scrutiny (as noted in prior posts) I cannot identify a legit reason to switch.
Can't fault anyone for picking the Pistons here, though. It's pretty much splittin' hairs, imo.

[giordunk]

Thanks for helping me move it along trex.

Without reading other people's posts, I'm going with the Miami Heat. Just maximized the most of every opportunity handed to them, and I think even in their down years they have a track record of overachieving. Strong front office and organization back by Riley.

May change my vote after I read people's arguments and tally it up.

[penbeast0]

Making a very rough unweighted count from trex's lists some surprising (to me) results:

Numerical rating (low is good, 10 if not on list), I forgot the Heat, they would be at 42, but everyone else would move have an average score about 3 higher so they would slot in around 3rd ahead of NY and ATL:

1. Indiana Pacers (25)
2. Detroit Pistons (37)
3a. New York Knicks (41.5)
3b. Atlanta Hawks (41.5)
5. OKC Thunder/Sonics (45.5)
6. Houston Rockets (47)
-------------------------------------
7. Portland Trailblazers (58)
8. Utah Jazz (66)
9a. Milwaukee Bucks (68)
9b. Phoenix Suns (68)
11. Denver Nuggets (70)

For what it's worth. I didn't expect to see Indiana, New York, and especially Atlanta that high.

[trex_8063]

Making a very rough unweighted count from trex's lists some surprising (to me) results:

Numerical rating (low is good, 10 if not on list), I forgot the Heat, they would be at 42, but everyone else would move have an average score about 3 higher so they would slot in around 3rd ahead of NY and ATL:

1. Indiana Pacers (25)
2. Detroit Pistons (37)
3a. New York Knicks (41.5)
3b. Atlanta Hawks (41.5)
5. OKC Thunder/Sonics (45.5)
6. Houston Rockets (47)
-------------------------------------
7. Portland Trailblazers (58)
8. Utah Jazz (66)
9a. Milwaukee Bucks (68)
9b. Phoenix Suns (68)
11. Denver Nuggets (70)

For what it's worth. I didn't expect to see Indiana, New York, and especially Atlanta that high.

Can you elaborate on what you've done here? Not sure I'm getting it. If you're just adding up their ranks from my post above, it doesn't look added correctly (Pacers total should be like 27, if I'm not mistaken). At any rate, if that is what you're doing, it's important to realize that the raw total categories (e.g. total finals appearances, total playoff appearances, etc) will naturally favor [arguably unfairly] teams with more longevity.