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Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET

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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#341 » by basketballRob » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:18 pm

Def Swami wrote:Fultz is a better passer and playmaker. Just watch the games. Full stop.

At the same time, Pepe is right that his shortcomings as a shooter, especially when sharing the floor with other sub-par shooters, severely shrinks the floor. Defenses are just ignoring him. And it's not all on Fultz. Isaac is shooting the ball well this year (38% from deep), but teams are okay with letting him beat them; his shooting hasn't translated to gravity yet. The same goes for Gordon and Iwundu and FFS Aminu, who are all sub-30% from deep.

We're dead last in ORTG and 3FG% and eFG% and TS%. Only 2 players on the team are shooting above 34% from deep (Fournier and Isaac). Only 2 players have shot above 37% from 3 for their careers (Fournier and Ross). We all said the team should have addressed this weakness in the offseason. Everything is such a grind. Clifford has been closing the last 2 games with Fultz/Fournier/Ross/Isaac/Birch; the shooting in this lineup isn't that bad, but the defense is really only worried about Ross and Fournier beyond the paint. And when Fournier and Augustin pound the ball without accomplishing anything for 16 seconds a possession, it compounds an already deficient offensive team.

It's all related. The poor spacing and Fournier and Augustin going rogue are essentially a cycle of death that propagates one another.
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LOL. Fournier killing the offense as usual. Both cases he could've just passed the ball. The same on the defensive side, rarely does Fournier stay with his man, he just chases the ball around.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#342 » by VFX » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:42 pm

Uh oh. Looks like some have starting calling out Clifford because it’s apparent he’s incapable of running an offense without Vuc. Surprise surprise.

This is either because the FO have failed to build a cohesive roster / find competent offense, OR Clifford doesn’t know what to do if he isn’t giving Vuc 12-17 shots a game. Probably both.

Yeah, and even if Vuc does come back to support this abysmal offense the Magic will still be bottom 5 in -

Offrtg: 30th
EFG% : 30th
TS%: 30th
Pace : 29th
If there was a category for most boring offense in the nba we’d probably be 30th too.

Let me know when some moves are made. This club is barely worth watching if it wasn’t for Isaac and Fultz.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#343 » by Xatticus » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:54 pm

Bensational wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
Spoiler:
pepe1991 wrote:


There is no evidence of this whatsoever.
If anything, all evidences point out that he is as much of a passer as Fournier, if not worst.
His raw APGs are well below average, his potential assists are below average ( for PG) ,his secundary assists are also below average.
He is right now having 21% usage rate. That's nothing spectacular but he is not being ignored like some here claim.

Problem with him, when he has ball is same problem any other non shooting PG has.
Defenders sag off, they go under screens and don't cover ground and him being ball dominant - non shooting PG hurts team, especially because he is not as gifted passer as Rondo or Rubio , who also belong in that "not shooter" category, and he does not have athletic atributes like Simmons or Lebron ( Lebron is career 34% three point shooter on 5100 attemps and teams STILL go under screens ).

Image

This play alone ( despite being executed ) shows preparation for this , Vuc and Gordon -less Magic. Pistons bank on two things:
1) Bamba can't post up and can't pass well enough or read
2) Fultz outside paint is no treat

And yes, this play actually did end up with Bamba passing to Fultz, but in many other plays same defensive set played right into a hands of Pistons and 33 points in second half are best evidence of it.

To show you that i did not cherry-pick on one play to bash Bamba and Fultz, there is another example of same strategy in same game

Image

and again

Image
This play in particular was ugly because Isaac got ball and hit top of the glass with jumper. But once again two things on display- center that can't pass and guard who isn't treat to shoot.

and at end of a day it all comes down to making or missing shots nowdays ,and when you are this much wide open

Image

you just have to make your damn shots. Worst thing was that he didn't even took shot, but dribbled to mid range,step back jumper, that he missed.

And for the end, notion that he never gets plays for him is also false, here you can see clear isolation set for him to take Kennard 1 on 1, Kennard positions himself poorly, and Fultz should have drived to his left to avoid center and power forward, instad,he drives right, right into two Kennard , Drummond and Griffin and gets stripped. It's just poor baksetball play.

Image


But as usual he will be stripped from any critisms from his board for healthy 3,4 years like Gordon , Payton,Hezonja, whoever were. Where in reality he just isn't that good and things he does well ( driving , finishing at rim) can only be used so often.
Since he now played with all 3 Cs , and didn't execuse Pick&Roll with any of them well, it's objective to come to conclusion he isn't that good at it. Just like he isn't that good or gifted as a passer or willing passer. As we saw enough times him dribbling into mid range pullups rather than passing ball for better looks. Per 36 min 5,2 assists a game paints perfect picture of more of a Iverson, Marbury type playmaker than Chris Paul, Steve Nash type PG.

Overall when you pair point guard that can't shoot, to a team that can't shoot and score in general, you are asking for trouble.
I often posted how Magic strategy of making teams worst to win games will never be sustainable and i already see lot of anti Clifford posts. In reality when you put so many challenged offensive players on same roster, what a hell coach can do with them? I don't get it. Maybe i'm just dumb.
This is the 100 percent truth even though folks here wont admit it. Fultz has been better then I expected but until he finds a jumpshot its gonna be tough against good defensive teams. We still need to find our pg.

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This is an example of poor coaching. If you've got a guy who's a superior passer and playmaker but can't shoot, why would you camp them in the corner?

Watch any play when Fultz is running point and you'll notice the defenders still don't sag off him. He's too quick and has too much control with the ball for them to risk giving him space even if he's on the perimeter.

Meanwhile, if you flipped DJ and Fultz in those roles, DJ can shoot so if he's left open by a cheating defender chances are Fultz could find him and he'll make that shot. DJ couldn't see over his defender to ever have a hope of finding Fultz even if Fultz could hit that shot.


He isn't a catch-and-shoot threat when camping at the 3-point line, but I wouldn't say he can't shoot. His mid-range game has looked pretty solid to me. It isn't an ideal shot, but it is enough of a threat to keep defenders from sagging well off of him. We've seen what TJ McConnell does to our defense twice this year and he has never been much of a 3-point shooter. Fultz isn't the three-level scorer that he was in college due to his inability to hit the 3-point shot, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have range.

Fultz gets into the paint. That has quite a bit of value. We just have to improve our ball movement to take advantage of a defense that sags to help when he does. I think Fultz has the potential to be a pretty good offensive player regardless of whether or not he ever solves his 3-point shooting problem.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#344 » by basketballRob » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:56 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Uh oh. Looks like some have starting calling out Clifford because it’s apparent he’s incapable of running an offense without Vuc. Surprise surprise.

This is either because the FO have failed to build a cohesive roster / find competent offense, OR Clifford doesn’t know what to do if he isn’t giving Vuc 12-17 shots a game. Probably both.

Yeah, and even if Vuc does come back to support this abysmal offense the Magic will still be bottom 5 in -

Offrtg: 30th
EFG% : 30th
TS%: 30th
Pace : 29th
If there was a category for most boring offense in the nba we’d probably be 30th too.

Let me know when some moves are made. This club is barely worth watching if it wasn’t for Isaac and Fultz.
We haven't been a good offensive team for the past 7 or 8 years.

Someone needs to sit Fournier down and tell him that Isaac is better than him and maybe he should start deferring.

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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#345 » by VFX » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:59 pm

basketballRob wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Uh oh. Looks like some have starting calling out Clifford because it’s apparent he’s incapable of running an offense without Vuc. Surprise surprise.

This is either because the FO have failed to build a cohesive roster / find competent offense, OR Clifford doesn’t know what to do if he isn’t giving Vuc 12-17 shots a game. Probably both.

Yeah, and even if Vuc does come back to support this abysmal offense the Magic will still be bottom 5 in -

Offrtg: 30th
EFG% : 30th
TS%: 30th
Pace : 29th
If there was a category for most boring offense in the nba we’d probably be 30th too.

Let me know when some moves are made. This club is barely worth watching if it wasn’t for Isaac and Fultz.
We haven't been a good offensive team for the past 7 or 8 years.

Someone needs to set Fournier down and tell him that Isaac is better than you and maybe you should start deferring.

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Why does it take a decade to build an offense? Negligence and oversight.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#346 » by Bensational » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:08 pm

Xatticus wrote:
Bensational wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
Spoiler:
This is the 100 percent truth even though folks here wont admit it. Fultz has been better then I expected but until he finds a jumpshot its gonna be tough against good defensive teams. We still need to find our pg.

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This is an example of poor coaching. If you've got a guy who's a superior passer and playmaker but can't shoot, why would you camp them in the corner?

Watch any play when Fultz is running point and you'll notice the defenders still don't sag off him. He's too quick and has too much control with the ball for them to risk giving him space even if he's on the perimeter.

Meanwhile, if you flipped DJ and Fultz in those roles, DJ can shoot so if he's left open by a cheating defender chances are Fultz could find him and he'll make that shot. DJ couldn't see over his defender to ever have a hope of finding Fultz even if Fultz could hit that shot.


He isn't a catch-and-shoot threat when camping at the 3-point line, but I wouldn't say he can't shoot. His mid-range game has looked pretty solid to me. It isn't an ideal shot, but it is enough of a threat to keep defenders from sagging well off of him. We've seen what TJ McConnell does to our defense twice this year and he has never been much of a 3-point shooter. Fultz isn't the three-level scorer that he was in college due to his inability to hit the 3-point shot, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have range.

Fultz gets into the paint. That has quite a bit of value. We just have to improve our ball movement to take advantage of a defense that sags to help when he does. I think Fultz has the potential to be a pretty good offensive player regardless of whether or not he ever solves his 3-point shooting problem.


I'm loving the upward trend in Fultz's midrange shot. Contrary to it going out of fashion, it's still the shot that will carry a lot of teams through the playoffs when defenses lock down the paint and perimeter. Kawhi and Durant have been abusing teams with their midrange shots in the playoffs. I'm not claiming Fultz will reach that level, but it will be a tool we'll need in a postseason run that's for sure.

I feel like Fultz will regain his 3pt shot, too. He's found his rhythm and form in the midrange when even that looked gone early on. He just has to build up to the 3 with strength and repetition. Might take him til next season for that to happen though.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#347 » by Bensational » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:12 pm

Also, small steps, but I thought Bamba had a great 1st half last night. You can't get too excited by such small and inconsistent flashes, but he was moving excellently on defense and seemed dialled in. I'll take any improvement from him.

I'm also really starting to like his follow blocks. There are quite a few times where he puts that length to great use and gets a block you wouldn't think was capable.

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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#348 » by penny_nz » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:49 pm

pepe1991 wrote:...
Just like he isn't that good or gifted as a passer or willing passer.
....


I just flat out don't see where this is coming from, I can't believe of all the genuine criticism that could be aimed at Fultz, from what we've seen this season, that this is even an option...
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#349 » by penny_nz » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:58 pm

Honestly I get all the back and forth on specific players, everyone has favorites and I'm no exception. But I think we can all agree just how ugly that second half was. Just a massive lack of offensive weapons or the type of elite coaching that can get the most out of a average lineup.

Like it or not, Vuc is so critical for the now of this team, not just what he brings on offense but the chemistry he has with those around him.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#350 » by pepe1991 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:14 pm

"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#351 » by Skybox » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:35 pm

pepe1991 wrote:"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
Bowdown for fans being fans, irrational aa usual


I don't get Iwundu....He always an insanely bad stat line until you get to +/-
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#352 » by pepe1991 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:15 pm

Skybox wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
Bowdown for fans being fans, irrational aa usual


I don't get Iwundu....He always an insanely bad stat line until you get to +/-


You can't play basketball 4 on 5 because of him.
Especially on team like Magic where almost every player feels like player less on offense.

He should not get PT.
It's still mindblowing how bad Frazier is if Iwundu still gets a chance, yet Frazier never cracked into rotation.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#353 » by basketballRob » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:44 pm

pepe1991 wrote:"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
Bowdown for fans being fans, irrational aa usual
That's Fournier's mentality that he thinks he's better than his teammates so he chooses not to pass to them. That's the way i see it.

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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#354 » by OrlandO » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:49 am

Fultz can only do so much driving... he's averaging 18 drives per game these last two games, which is more than Westbrook's season average. If he had a 3pt shot you could squeeze more usage out of him, but he doesn't right now. He's probably also prematurely being pushed into more minutes and use than the team would have liked in terms of his health. If he can stay symptom free and keep finishing and making good passes from volume driving we should see less dribbling from fournier and ag when we're healthy again.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#355 » by MagicStarwipe » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:51 am

pepe1991 wrote:"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
Bowdown for fans being fans, irrational aa usual


Yes... you pass to your open teammate. What a concept.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#356 » by SOUL » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:16 am

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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#357 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:21 am

Skybox wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:"passing to wide open Wes Iwundu".
22% FG shooter, Jesus i really wonder why he is open, it's almost like defense wants sub 20% outside shooters to get ball 25 feet from rim

:bowdown:
Bowdown for fans being fans, irrational aa usual


I don't get Iwundu....He always an insanely bad stat line until you get to +/-


+/- isn’t an individual stat that’s why he doesn’t look bad.

Dude has a .36 TS% -6.6 OBPM sporting an 82 offensive rating per 100.

That’s COMICAL BAD
A scoring guard.. never heard of one. :roll:
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#358 » by SHAQ32 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:59 am

Bensational wrote:Also, small steps, but I thought Bamba had a great 1st half last night. You can't get too excited by such small and inconsistent flashes, but he was moving excellently on defense and seemed dialled in. I'll take any improvement from him.

I'm also really starting to like his follow blocks. There are quite a few times where he puts that length to great use and gets a block you wouldn't think was capable.

Small victories right now!

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but Detroit's front-court isn't very tenacious. Great offensively, yes, but they aren't really too aggressive, physically.

So i'm not too surprised to see Mo have some success vs the Pistons.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#359 » by OrlandO » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:05 am

SOUL wrote:
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Third best behind Vuc and Fournier... second best behind Vuc if you only count games as a starter. But yes, he's looked good despite the lack of outside shooting... will be a shame if he never gets that shot back.
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Re: Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (6-9) at Detroit Pistons (5-11) - 7pm ET 

Post#360 » by Blue_and_Whte » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:49 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:
Bensational wrote:Also, small steps, but I thought Bamba had a great 1st half last night. You can't get too excited by such small and inconsistent flashes, but he was moving excellently on defense and seemed dialled in. I'll take any improvement from him.

I'm also really starting to like his follow blocks. There are quite a few times where he puts that length to great use and gets a block you wouldn't think was capable.

Small victories right now!

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but Detroit's front-court isn't very tenacious. Great offensively, yes, but they aren't really too aggressive, physically.

So i'm not too surprised to see Mo have some success vs the Pistons.

I wouldnt say he had a "great" first half. He gave Cliff a good 5 mins in the first Q then slowly drifted off after that as expected.
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