Khris Middleton Thread

[coolhandluke121]

Are people really arguing that Middleton doesn't make this team much better? Our second creator is Bledsoe without him...

Uh, no? They're saying the Bucks didn't miss him nearly as much as you'd think they would and he doesn't improve them enough to justify his salary. It's not Khris vs. no Khris, it's Khris vs. spending that money more wisely.

It's really not even that nuanced of an argument, but I guess there will always be some people who refuse to consider any nuance at all.

[ReasonablySober]

Are we really making the argument that Middleton wasn't missed quite a bit? We've needed some super human performances from Giannis to win some of these games. The supporting cast hasn't exactly lit it up over the last few weeks. We desperately need a #2 scoring option out there that can consistently put in 20ish points and take some pressure off the other guys on the court.

[coolhandluke121]

Are we really making the argument that Middleton wasn't missed quite a bit? We've needed some super human performances from Giannis to win some of these games.

No, we're making the argument that he wouldn't have been missed if they had spent the money on Brogdon and another player who's almost as good as Khris. Although I would think anybody watching can see how the intensity and energy and tempo without Khris helped Giannis pick up more of the slack, particularly with regard to keeping defenses on their heels. It matches up with him nicely.

That darn nuance again!

[ReasonablySober]

Are we really making the argument that Middleton wasn't missed quite a bit? We've needed some super human performances from Giannis to win some of these games.

No, we're making the argument that he wouldn't have been missed if they had spent the money on Brogdon and another player who's almost as good as Khris. Although I would think anybody watching can see how the intensity and energy and tempo without Khris helped Giannis pick up more of the slack, particularly with regard to keeping defenses on their heels. It matches up with him nicely.

That darn nuance again!

Ah, yes, I always love the argument that Milwaukee could have just gone out and spent the money on cheaper, similarly effective guys, as if there aren't 29 other teams competing for their services.

[emunney]

I can't remember how the pieces fit together but assuming we resigned Hill and Lopez to the same deals, what kind of space would we have had before matching a Brogdon deal, and who signed for that or less?

[Baddy Chuck]

I can't remember how the pieces fit together but assuming we resigned Hill and Lopez to the same deals, what kind of space would we have had before matching a Brogdon deal, and who signed for that or less?

Probably the great Wayne Ellington.

[Diggr14]

I'll be disappointed if they dont trade Middleton sometime between Jan. 15 and Jul 31. They made a mistake, it's time to fix it before it festers.

[MickeyDavis]

Are we really making the argument that Middleton wasn't missed quite a bit? We've needed some super human performances from Giannis to win some of these games.

No, we're making the argument that he wouldn't have been missed if they had spent the money on Brogdon and another player who's almost as good as Khris. Although I would think anybody watching can see how the intensity and energy and tempo without Khris helped Giannis pick up more of the slack, particularly with regard to keeping defenses on their heels. It matches up with him nicely.

That darn nuance again!

Ah, yes, I always love the argument that Milwaukee could have just gone out and spent the money on cheaper, similarly effective guys, as if there aren't 29 other teams competing for their services.

Yup, it's always easy to argue a hypothetical that can never be proved/disproved.

[emunney]

I can't remember how the pieces fit together but assuming we resigned Hill and Lopez to the same deals, what kind of space would we have had before matching a Brogdon deal, and who signed for that or less?

Probably the great Wayne Ellington.

By my calculations, we'd have had $19,173,575 if we kept these other guys at the same salaries and with Brogdon's cap hold. Now, we don't know to what extent those other deals were contingent on the plan as it was and Hill and Lopez being on board with it, or whether they'd be on board with a different plan. But Bojan did sign for a salary starting at 17m. I don't think we're ever going to fully understand why Middleton got as much as he did.

[Diggr14]

Could DeAngelo Russell be a trade candidate? GS would get Middleton to run with Curry, Thompson, Green, FRP next season.

[Diggr14]

Even with all his warts I think we missed him way more than the record shows. Nice for the young dudes and Wes to step up but good to have him back.

disagree. Minute for minute the young guys outperformed him in his absence. DDV and SB are legit on ball defenders and they require low usage on the offensive end. The ball always dies in Middleton's hands and he really doesn't play defense anymore like he used to.

He's been living off past defensive reputation and volume on the offensive end. For 1/10th the cost you have 2 guys that out perform him.

Get rid of him, get back an expiring and draft assets (if it is even possible anymore with that contract). When the playoffs come around, Middleton will shrink away anyways.

D'Angelo Russell or DeRozan are guys i'd target. I dont think either would disappear in the playoffs.

[coolhandluke121]

I can't remember how the pieces fit together but assuming we resigned Hill and Lopez to the same deals, what kind of space would we have had before matching a Brogdon deal, and who signed for that or less?

Probably the great Wayne Ellington.

By my calculations, we'd have had $19,173,575 if we kept these other guys at the same salaries and with Brogdon's cap hold. Now, we don't know to what extent those other deals were contingent on the plan as it was and Hill and Lopez being on board with it, or whether they'd be on board with a different plan. But Bojan did sign for a salary starting at 17m. I don't think we're ever going to fully understand why Middleton got as much as he did.

At least you admit you don't fully remember, although you seem to have the gist of it. Wayne Ellington my butt.

I don't see how that number could have been any less than $19.5m, because that was Khris's cap hold and they couldn't have re-signed him without that fitting under the cap.

However, my understanding was that you would have to increase Brogdon's cap hold from just under $2m to just over $3m in order to keep his QO and retain the right to match. I think that's why they didn't qualify for the TPE, because they needed to free up just over $1m more and couldn't do it. So that leaves probably just over $18m in cap space, i.e. 19.5 minus the difference in Brogdon's cap figures for keeping the QO.

Bogdanovic, Danny Green, Reddick, and Rubio signed for less. Some of those guys would fit in better than others obviously, and none of them is as good as Khris... but you'd also have Brogdon, which is a pretty big Matzo Ball. And a few of those guys also would have allowed for another signing of more than vet minimum consequence, like Vonleh.

You can say that none if those guys would have signed, although that's a stretch. And even though, you still have Brogdon plus a much healthier payroll structure. Mirotic also supposedly wanted to stay, and they had his full Bird Rights.

Maybe they could have even skipped out on Brooke and signed Horford, with about $7m to spare.

ETA: Just realized you may have already tried to account for the difference between Brogdon's Bird Rights and QO, and that's why you have a number under $19.5m?

[emunney]

Probably the great Wayne Ellington.

By my calculations, we'd have had $19,173,575 if we kept these other guys at the same salaries and with Brogdon's cap hold. Now, we don't know to what extent those other deals were contingent on the plan as it was and Hill and Lopez being on board with it, or whether they'd be on board with a different plan. But Bojan did sign for a salary starting at 17m. I don't think we're ever going to fully understand why Middleton got as much as he did.

At least you admit you don't fully remember, although you seem to have the gist of it. Wayne Ellington my butt.

I don't see how that number could have been any less than $19.5m, because that was Khris's cap hold and they couldn't have re-signed him without that fitting under the cap.

However, my understanding was that you would have to increase Brogdon's cap hold from just under $2m to just over $3m in order to keep his QO and retain the right to match. I think that's why they didn't qualify for the TPE, because they needed to free up just over $1m more and couldn't do it. So that leaves probably just over $18m in cap space, i.e. 19.5 minus the difference in Brogdon's cap figures for keeping the QO.

Bogdanovic, Danny Green, Reddick, and Rubio signed for less. Some of those guys would fit in better than others obviously, and none of them is as good as Khris... but you'd also have Brogdon, which is a pretty big Matzo Ball. And a few of those guys also would have allowed for another signing of more than vet minimum consequence, like Vonleh.

You can say that none if those guys would have signed, although that's a stretch. And even though, you still have Brogdon plus a much healthier payroll structure. Mirotic also supposedly wanted to stay, and they had his full Bird Rights.

Maybe they could have even skipped out on Brooke and signed Horford, with about $7m to spare.

That number includes Brogdon's cap hold for the QO ($3,021,354) which we no longer had by the time we signed Hill and Lopez.

Not sure what you mean by "at least I admit". I said upfront that I didn't remember and then I did the work to figure out exactly what the number was down to the dollar. Is that somehow in bad faith?

[coolhandluke121]

That number includes Brogdon's cap hold for the QO ($3,021,354) which we no longer had by the time we signed Hill and Lopez.

Not sure what you mean by "at least I admit". I said upfront that I didn't remember and then I did the work to figure out exactly what the number was down to the dollar. Is that somehow in bad faith?

Not at all. It was in reference to Baddy Chuck's sarcastic suggestion that those of us who wish the Bucks had gone the Brogdon +$19m in cap space route would have done no better than Wayne Ellington.

[Bucksfan28]

For 1/10th the cost you have 2 guys that out perform him.

D'Angelo Russell or DeRozan are guys i'd target. I dont think either would disappear in the playoffs.

[msiris]

Are people really arguing that Middleton doesn't make this team much better? Our second creator is Bledsoe without him...

Uh, no? They're saying the Bucks didn't miss him nearly as much as you'd think they would and he doesn't improve them enough to justify his salary. It's not Khris vs. no Khris, it's Khris vs. spending that money more wisely.

It's really not even that nuanced of an argument, but I guess there will always be some people who refuse to consider any nuance at all.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying all a long. It will bit us down the road.

[emunney]

That number includes Brogdon's cap hold for the QO ($3,021,354) which we no longer had by the time we signed Hill and Lopez.

Not sure what you mean by "at least I admit". I said upfront that I didn't remember and then I did the work to figure out exactly what the number was down to the dollar. Is that somehow in bad faith?

Not at all. It was in reference to Baddy Chuck's sarcastic suggestion that those of us who wish the Bucks had gone the Brogdon +$19m in cap space route would have done no better than Wayne Ellington.

Could have signed Lamb and absorbed Bertans.

[MissKhriddleton]

It's more than just what we could have done this last offseason. Granted, I'm not super knowledgable about the salary cap, but having a declining role player making $35 million a year is going to limit what we can do to improve the team. Brogdon/Bojan at $20 million are flippable. Khris at $35 million is absolutely untradable unless we're taking on someone extremely flawed or attaching assets.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

It's more than just what we could have done this last offseason. Granted, I'm not super knowledgable about the salary cap, but having a declining role player making $35 million a year is going to limit what we can do to improve the team. Brogdon/Bojan at $20 million are flippable. Khris at $35 million is absolutely untradable unless we're taking on someone extremely flawed or attaching assets.

great news... khris middleton is in his prime and would be coveted by half the league. theres literally never been a healthy allstar on an elite team locked up from age 28-32 thats ever had negative value in the history of the league.

so no worries....if he went on the market there would literally be a feeding frenzy of assets offered. we could have our pick of guys like bojan/brogdon along with some young assets or picks coming back

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Are we really making the argument that Middleton wasn't missed quite a bit? We've needed some super human performances from Giannis to win some of these games.

No, we're making the argument that he wouldn't have been missed if they had spent the money on Brogdon and another player who's almost as good as Khris. Although I would think anybody watching can see how the intensity and energy and tempo without Khris helped Giannis pick up more of the slack, particularly with regard to keeping defenses on their heels. It matches up with him nicely.

That darn nuance again!

Ah, yes, I always love the argument that Milwaukee could have just gone out and spent the money on cheaper, similarly effective guys, as if there aren't 29 other teams competing for their services.

you mean were not allowed to look back months later and search 100 different contracts and pick the 1-2 we like better than the guy we got?