Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[fklt]

that draft night where we ended up with bamba still haunts me.

[basketballRob]

I'm still shocked the Suns took Ayton over Doncic after signing his national coach. Doncic-Booker would be looking pretty phenomenal right now. Plus they had the money to sign big FAs, so they could've built a super team in one season if they'd played their cards right.

I think if the Suns took Doncic, their fans would already be talking about who they could get for Booker. Suns fans don't seem to be enamored with Booker on the whole. I'm not saying he will be made available, but that would be Doncic's team if they took him. He is on another level. I don't understand why anyone would've passed on Doncic, but two teams did. I would've sold the farm to get him. He was just so accomplished and his understanding of basketball so advanced. Athleticism be damned.

The GM for the Suns got fired soon after he didn't pick Doncic.

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[NavalAviator94]

that draft night where we ended up with bamba still haunts me.

Imagine being a fan of one of the teams that legit passed on Doncic.

[zaymon]

that draft night where we ended up with bamba still haunts me.

Imagine being a fan of one of the teams that legit passed on Doncic.

Its mind boggling how stupid are some of the nba gms. I think 90% of our board would draft Doncic first. I know he was off the board when we were picking but i cant forget Weltman smile talking that we needed some movement at the top to land Bamba. I like Weltman as our gm but that interview is carved in my memory ( becouse Bamba was my least favourite pick)

[ezzzp]

What we should have done is tank those last couple of stupid meaningless games instead of winning them and snatching failure from the jaws of lottery success. I remember waking up the morning of a game near the season's end that we won and thinking "well, that's Doncic gone".

We should've tanked the whole season. We knew the team was severely flawed, but our new management team came in, plugged some holes, and spent the year evaluating. We heard the rumors that they were brought in with the stipulation that they gave Vogel a fair chance, but that fair chance is probably what cost us a chance at Doncic (or any of the other potential organizational centerpieces).

I'm not blindly advocating for tanking here, but you have to be pragmatic. We knew that team was DOA before the season started. It wouldn't have taken much more than a nudge to ensure that we were the worst team in the league and guarantee that we were in line to get one of those transcendent talents. Sometimes it's a fine line between being principled and being stupid.

We didn't even have to go full tank mode that year. Once it was clear, past halfway, that the best we could hope for was a good pick in the draft, we should have run up the white flag. Even the last two games or so that we bafflingly went out to win would have elevated our number of ping pong balls exponentially had we lost. I can't remember how far our lottery odds dropped but it was by a lot.

Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:



Dallas won the tiebreaker over Atlanta to get the 3d best odds in the draft. But it was Atlanta that jumped in the draft to get the #3 pick. Meanwhile Dallas dropped TWO spots to #5.

Memphis who tanked really hard got jumped by Sacramento and Atlanta dropping to the #4.

Sacramento who had the 6th best odds, jumped FOUR spots to get the #2 pick...and passed on both Doncic and Young.

Of note, prior to the lottery both Marc Stein and Zach Lowe reported that Orlando and Memphis were in trade discussions. The reported deal was Memphis' #4 + Chandler Parsons for the Magic's #6 + Evan Fournier + a future pick. So at minimum, the Magic were prepared to trade considerable assets to get a player they wanted. That the trade never happened hints that player was Doncic.

[Knightro]

Of note, prior to the lottery both Marc Stein and Zach Lowe reported that Orlando and Memphis were in trade discussions. The reported deal was Memphis' #4 + Chandler Parsons for the Magic's #6 + Evan Fournier + a future pick. So at minimum, the Magic were prepared to trade considerable assets to get a player they wanted.

While this is true, there are two very important things to note about that draft.

1. Since Atlanta couldn't control what Memphis was going to at 4, they were obviously willing to be "stuck" with Doncic if Young somehow didn't make it to 5.

2. Orlando trading up to 4 (presumably to get Young) would have only happened had the Grizzlies been able to still get JJJ at 6, but if Luka and Trae had both been off the board by 5, the Mavericks would have picked JJJ at 5 which kills any Orlando/Memphis action before it gets started.

[ezzzp]

Of note, prior to the lottery both Marc Stein and Zach Lowe reported that Orlando and Memphis were in trade discussions. The reported deal was Memphis' #4 + Chandler Parsons for the Magic's #6 + Evan Fournier + a future pick. So at minimum, the Magic were prepared to trade considerable assets to get a player they wanted.

While this is true, there are two very important things to note about that draft.

1. Since Atlanta couldn't control what Memphis was going to at 4, they were obviously willing to be "stuck" with Doncic if Young somehow didn't make it to 5.

2. Orlando trading up to 4 (presumably to get Young) would have only happened had the Grizzlies been able to still get JJJ at 6, but if Luka and Trae had both been off the board by 5, the Mavericks would have picked JJJ at 5 which kills any Orlando/Memphis action before it gets started.

Because of Memphis' situation at the time + that the rumors were prior to lottery being in progress, I read it as the Magic willing to pay big for Doncic...but not Young.

Memphis was still committed to making it work with Conley and Gasol. They tanked that season but only because of injuries to both Gasol/Conley. There were a lot of rumors that they wanted to use the pick to get clear of Parsons' contract as that was the anchor holding them back from filling in around Conley/Gasol.

Both JJJ or Trae were valid long term picks developing behind their two franchise stars if they couldn't find a taker for the pick. Which to me indicates that the Magic weren't willing to give up assets for Trae Young once Doncic was off the board, so Memphis took the player who they liked better.

[NavalAviator94]

We should've tanked the whole season. We knew the team was severely flawed, but our new management team came in, plugged some holes, and spent the year evaluating. We heard the rumors that they were brought in with the stipulation that they gave Vogel a fair chance, but that fair chance is probably what cost us a chance at Doncic (or any of the other potential organizational centerpieces).

I'm not blindly advocating for tanking here, but you have to be pragmatic. We knew that team was DOA before the season started. It wouldn't have taken much more than a nudge to ensure that we were the worst team in the league and guarantee that we were in line to get one of those transcendent talents. Sometimes it's a fine line between being principled and being stupid.

We didn't even have to go full tank mode that year. Once it was clear, past halfway, that the best we could hope for was a good pick in the draft, we should have run up the white flag. Even the last two games or so that we bafflingly went out to win would have elevated our number of ping pong balls exponentially had we lost. I can't remember how far our lottery odds dropped but it was by a lot.

Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:



Dallas won the tiebreaker over Atlanta to get the 3d best odds in the draft. But it was Atlanta that jumped in the draft to get the #3 pick. Meanwhile Dallas dropped TWO spots to #5.

Memphis who tanked really hard got jumped by Sacramento and Atlanta dropping to the #4.

Sacramento who had the 6th best odds, jumped FOUR spots to get the #2 pick...and passed on both Doncic and Young.

Of note, prior to the lottery both Marc Stein and Zach Lowe reported that Orlando and Memphis were in trade discussions. The reported deal was Memphis' #4 + Chandler Parsons for the Magic's #6 + Evan Fournier + a future pick. So at minimum, the Magic were prepared to trade considerable assets to get a player they wanted. That the trade never happened hints that player was Doncic.

Interesting. I never heard about that proposed Orlando trade. Always so close....

[NavalAviator94]

Of note, prior to the lottery both Marc Stein and Zach Lowe reported that Orlando and Memphis were in trade discussions. The reported deal was Memphis' #4 + Chandler Parsons for the Magic's #6 + Evan Fournier + a future pick. So at minimum, the Magic were prepared to trade considerable assets to get a player they wanted.

While this is true, there are two very important things to note about that draft.

1. Since Atlanta couldn't control what Memphis was going to at 4, they were obviously willing to be "stuck" with Doncic if Young somehow didn't make it to 5.

2. Orlando trading up to 4 (presumably to get Young) would have only happened had the Grizzlies been able to still get JJJ at 6, but if Luka and Trae had both been off the board by 5, the Mavericks would have picked JJJ at 5 which kills any Orlando/Memphis action before it gets started.

Yet so far.....

[basketballRob]

If MCW comes back they may want to play him over DJ. He's been a huge liability. Last night as soon as he came in they went on a run.

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[ezzzp]

If MCW comes back they may want to play him over DJ. He's been a huge liability. Last night as soon as he came in they went on a run.

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...or at minimum force DJ to play off-ball more. MCW is very important to 2nd unit, and to the overall demeanor of team.

2nd chance points have been killing the Magic, MCW impacts that with the way he rebounds and fights for any 50/50 ball. He might suck at shooting and scoring, but he does so many other things that more than makes up for it.

[fklt]

that draft night where we ended up with bamba still haunts me.

Imagine being a fan of one of the teams that legit passed on Doncic.

man, when suns and kings passed on him, and we started to hear the rumour about hawks planning to trade down, I stupidly filled with hope that we might be involved. only made that night suck so much harder at the end. then waited for the news that we drafted bamba for boston or something, to trade down, which was another one of the rumours. nope, not that either.

as a relatively anti-tank person I spent that whole season claiming doncic is the first exception to the rule since lebron that you should do whatever you can just to increase your limited chances of getting him. but we miracalously threaded the impossible line of, declaredly throwing away the season at the very beginning and being the only team to play our starters to finish to season, with vogel evaluation year bull***. and finally we managed to lose out on him by a hair of chance. I seriously was this close to being a dallas fan just out of trauma.

[Ducklett]

that draft night where we ended up with bamba still haunts me.

Imagine being a fan of one of the teams that legit passed on Doncic.

man, when suns and kings passed on him, and we started to hear the rumour about hawks planning to trade down, I stupidly filled with hope that we might be involved. only made that night suck so much harder at the end. then waited for the news that we drafted bamba for boston or something, to trade down, which was another one of the rumours. nope, not that either.

as a relatively anti-tank person I spent that whole season claiming doncic is the first exception to the rule since lebron that you should do whatever you can just to increase your limited chances of getting him. but we miracalously thread the impossible line of, declaredly throwing away the season at the very beginning and being the only team to play our starters to finish to season, with vogel evaluation year bull***. and finally we managed to lose out on him by a hair of chance. I seriously was this close to being dallas fan just out of trauma.

Being Anti-Tank is extremely easy. Who wants to lose? It takes bravery to stick to the strategy and find interesting ways to make your team lose. We got played by the "culture win" BS that was flying around and it totally cost us.

[ezzzp]

Imagine being a fan of one of the teams that legit passed on Doncic.

man, when suns and kings passed on him, and we started to hear the rumour about hawks planning to trade down, I stupidly filled with hope that we might be involved. only made that night suck so much harder at the end. then waited for the news that we drafted bamba for boston or something, to trade down, which was another one of the rumours. nope, not that either.

as a relatively anti-tank person I spent that whole season claiming doncic is the first exception to the rule since lebron that you should do whatever you can just to increase your limited chances of getting him. but we miracalously thread the impossible line of, declaredly throwing away the season at the very beginning and being the only team to play our starters to finish to season, with vogel evaluation year bull***. and finally we managed to lose out on him by a hair of chance. I seriously was this close to being dallas fan just out of trauma.

Being Anti-Tank is extremely easy. Who wants to lose? It takes bravery to stick to the strategy and find interesting ways to make your team lose. We got played by the "culture win" BS that was flying around and it totally cost us.

Being pro-tank is easier...all you have to do is lose and keep losing year-after-year while on the bottom-feeder treadmill. All you do is teach young players how to lose and then as soon as they hit free agency the good ones get poached by franchises that aren't dumb enough to fall for PR gimmicks.

[Last Guardian]

If MCW comes back they may want to play him over DJ. He's been a huge liability. Last night as soon as he came in they went on a run.

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If they don't play MCW over DJ then they truly do not care about defense or winning games in general. It is proven even today that a great defense will still win you games (for all you whiny nitpickers, I didn't say you'd win a championship just on defense). We aren't great on defense because we continue to play and not trade weak links.

[pepe1991]

If MCW comes back they may want to play him over DJ. He's been a huge liability. Last night as soon as he came in they went on a run.

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If they don't play MCW over DJ then they truly do not care about defense or winning games in general. It is proven even today that a great defense will still win you games (for all you whiny nitpickers, I didn't say you'd win a championship just on defense). We aren't great on defense because we continue to play and not trade weak links.

Orr..... not play Wes Iwundu who will struggle to start on worst Euroleague team. Actually i'm more than confident that he can't play in Euroleague... Maybe some Russian bottom feeder or bad team in China...

[j-ragg]

I don't care how bad DJ is shooting... really can't imagine replacing him with MCW. In a vacuum, sure that doesn't sound that bad given how bad DJ is shooting. I realize his shooting struggles are part of the reason the 2nd unit can't get it going offensively but if we took him out completely I think it exacerbates the problem more than fixes it. Cliff wouldn't do it anyway so it's pretty moot.

[Last Guardian]

I don't care how bad DJ is shooting... really can't imagine replacing him with MCW. In a vacuum, sure that doesn't sound that bad given how bad DJ is shooting. I realize his shooting struggles are part of the reason the 2nd unit can't get it going offensively but if we took him out completely I think it exacerbates the problem more than fixes it. Cliff wouldn't do it anyway so it's pretty moot.

Who cares about shooting if your such a weak defender that you’re responsible for giving up so much on the other end? DJ would have to be Klay Thompson to make up for what he gives up. MCW barely gives up anything so even when he doesn’t score much he’s not hurting us either. Last I checked his impact stats were terrific, not sure if those changed though.

[j-ragg]

I don't care how bad DJ is shooting... really can't imagine replacing him with MCW. In a vacuum, sure that doesn't sound that bad given how bad DJ is shooting. I realize his shooting struggles are part of the reason the 2nd unit can't get it going offensively but if we took him out completely I think it exacerbates the problem more than fixes it. Cliff wouldn't do it anyway so it's pretty moot.

Who cares about shooting if your such a weak defender that you’re responsible for giving up so much on the other end?

Like I said in a vacuum for most teams, that makes sense. For this particular team it'd make us much worse imo. Just my .02, all we have are defenders though who can't create. When DJ is good DJ he is great for us. Just need him to revert to the last couple year's form.

[Def Swami]

Sort of OT. But kind of funny. I respect it.

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