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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1961 » by basketballRob » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:36 pm

Xatticus wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
Viper1500 wrote:
They basically have the same offensive rating and Fultz spent the entire offseason prohibited from practicing the 3pt shot. Fultz defense is in a whole different class.

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Young is a vastly superior player at the offensive end. He is legitimately a very good offensive player.

The Hawks aren't even trying to win this year. They could've been decent, but they are still committed to tanking this year to acquire more assets. If they were trying to win, Reddish wouldn't even be in the rotation. They are starting him and playing him 25 minutes a night.
We'll see. I think Fultz improves way more from this point on than Young. Right now Fultz is still getting his legs and mostly just deferring.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1962 » by OrlandO » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:23 pm

Solid Snake wrote:thoughts on birch so far?

Probably would look better if he wasn't playing so many minutes against starters. Certainly not the next ben wallace...
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1963 » by Skin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:27 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:

Image


This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1964 » by pepe1991 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:01 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:

Image


This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Kings won more games than Magic and could have drafted both Young and Doncic if they wanted to. :lol:
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1965 » by Skin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:10 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:

Image


This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Kings won more games than Magic and could have drafted both Young and Doncic if they wanted to. :lol:

1 out of 6 teams... An exception.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1966 » by ezzzp » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:17 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:

Image


This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Quite the opposite. This just shows you how flawed the concept of tanking for odds is.

That's before you even get into the realities of artificially fluffed tank stats in relation to real actual wins...or how free agency and cap dynamics has neutered nearly every single tanker, leaving them short of their hypothetical goal of contention.

Contention is the goal no? Most tankers just think success is short term media hype; its why its most tankers are the quickest to label a player a bust once they loose their new toy gloss and move on to (or covet someone else's) new shiny object.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1967 » by Skin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:26 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Eh...reality doesn't care about odds...this is what actually happened:

Image


This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Quite the opposite. This just shows you how flawed the concept of tanking for odds is.

That's before you even get into the realities of artificially fluffed tank stats in relation to real actual wins...or how free agency and cap dynamics has neutered nearly every single tanker, leaving them short of their hypothetical goal of contention.

Contention is the goal no? Most tankers just think success is short term media hype; its why its most tankers are the quickest to label a player a bust once they loose their new toy gloss and move on to (or covet someone else's) new shiny object.

Tanking is only part of it. You have to choose the right player.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1968 » by ezzzp » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:51 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Quite the opposite. This just shows you how flawed the concept of tanking for odds is.

That's before you even get into the realities of artificially fluffed tank stats in relation to real actual wins...or how free agency and cap dynamics has neutered nearly every single tanker, leaving them short of their hypothetical goal of contention.

Contention is the goal no? Most tankers just think success is short term media hype; its why its most tankers are the quickest to label a player a bust once they loose their new toy gloss and move on to (or covet someone else's) new shiny object.

Tanking is only part of it. You have to choose the right player.


Oh is that all? :lol:

For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star...and that's a trend that is increasingly widening.

The data used for tank logic is based on incompatible information and microscopic sample size...most of which occurred prior to the CBA changes, prior to various lottery reforms, prior to the dramatic change of age that players entered the NBA, prior to the era of player empowerment dramatically changing player movement etc etc etc...

What most of the tank teams conveniently leave out of their "hope" and "great future" propaganda is that it's a rarity that those "tank" acquired players will reach their prime "star" level on the team that drafted them. It is even more extremely rare that they carry their draft team to contention. The norm is that those players are long gone before or at their first unrestricted free agency ...almost always they get poached by the quality teams or destination market franchises.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1969 » by Skin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:00 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Quite the opposite. This just shows you how flawed the concept of tanking for odds is.

That's before you even get into the realities of artificially fluffed tank stats in relation to real actual wins...or how free agency and cap dynamics has neutered nearly every single tanker, leaving them short of their hypothetical goal of contention.

Contention is the goal no? Most tankers just think success is short term media hype; its why its most tankers are the quickest to label a player a bust once they loose their new toy gloss and move on to (or covet someone else's) new shiny object.

Tanking is only part of it. You have to choose the right player.


Oh is that all? :lol:

For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star...and that's a trend that is increasingly widening.

The data used for tank logic is based on incompatible information and microscopic sample size...most of which occurred prior to the CBA changes, prior to various lottery reforms, prior to the dramatic change of age that players entered the NBA, prior to the era of player empowerment dramatically changing player movement etc etc etc...

What most of the tank teams conveniently leave out of their "hope" and "great future" propaganda is that it's a rarity that those "tank" acquired players will reach their prime "star" level on the team that drafted them. It is even more extremely rare that they carry their draft team to contention. The norm is that those players are long gone before or at their first unrestricted free agency and get poached by the smart franchises.

If you think we have the right front office then yeah... that's all. Get a high pick, pick the right player.

All too often, trash GMs follow the draft media pundits and mock drafter rankings in order to save face in case the player doesn't pan out. I actually like our front office in terms of drafting. They don't seem to be afraid of drafting according to beat of their own drum. Okeke was a reach to most, but they stuck to their beliefs. I think he'll pan out... we'll see...

I think our problem is that we haven't been in position to draft any star talent. Making the playoffs was about as neat as watching water dry in the sun. The whole "we have a winning culture now" and "we know how to win now" and "we know how to play with each other" hoopla is just that... words to help preseason ticket sales.

What are our expectations supposed to be for this year?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1970 » by pepe1991 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:32 pm

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:This is why anti-tankers should not complain about Mo Bamba or doubting the odds of landing a star in the draft, the higher you pick.


Kings won more games than Magic and could have drafted both Young and Doncic if they wanted to. :lol:

1 out of 6 teams... An exception.


Amount of botched lottery picks in last few years is too big to make a claim that tanking can save any franchise.
When you add on top of that fact that vast majority of nba superstars DO NOT play on teams that drafted them you get to the point where it becomes more clear how NBA works.

And how it works is simple. Almost always same few teams are contenders and win 70% of all championships and half of the league stays championships-less for decades.

One of biggest problems is size of markets as not all nba teams have same off court or even on court value.
Other issuse is geographic as some teams just don't play in attractive locations ( as others do).
And third one is front office and who runs teams, you mentioned to ezzp.

Overall, odds are, even if you strike luck and draft next Lebron or Durant ( not really objective or realistic outcome but whatever), he most likely won't win title on your team, but team he goes after he is done with your team.

We reached point last year where only 3 nba players in league of 528 of them played for same team for 10 or more years. 1 of 3 isn't even good player ( Haslem).
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1971 » by ezzzp » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:25 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Tanking is only part of it. You have to choose the right player.


Oh is that all? :lol:

For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star...and that's a trend that is increasingly widening.

The data used for tank logic is based on incompatible information and microscopic sample size...most of which occurred prior to the CBA changes, prior to various lottery reforms, prior to the dramatic change of age that players entered the NBA, prior to the era of player empowerment dramatically changing player movement etc etc etc...

What most of the tank teams conveniently leave out of their "hope" and "great future" propaganda is that it's a rarity that those "tank" acquired players will reach their prime "star" level on the team that drafted them. It is even more extremely rare that they carry their draft team to contention. The norm is that those players are long gone before or at their first unrestricted free agency and get poached by the smart franchises.

If you think we have the right front office then yeah... that's all. Get a high pick, pick the right player.

All too often, trash GMs follow the draft media pundits and mock drafter rankings in order to save face in case the player doesn't pan out. I actually like our front office in terms of drafting. They don't seem to be afraid of drafting according to beat of their own drum. Okeke was a reach to most, but they stuck to their beliefs. I think he'll pan out... we'll see...

I think our problem is that we haven't been in position to draft any star talent. Making the playoffs was about as neat as watching water dry in the sun. The whole "we have a winning culture now" and "we know how to win now" and "we know how to play with each other" hoopla is just that... words to help preseason ticket sales.

What are our expectations supposed to be for this year?


My expectations are that the team play +82 games that matter, and that the younger players develop inside that type of context. I 100% totally disagree that making the playoffs was meaningless from team building and from fan enjoyment pov.

Playing in +82 meaningful games is the best context for player development (as opposed to teaching players how to lose); its better for asset values; its better for franchise desirability in future free agencies...all that equals better options for transactional improvement (the most important tool in successful team building in contemporary NBA).

Its even better for the team's sustainability, that feeds the team infrastructure, that feeds the team performance...its all connected.

Tank teams, especially small market ones, go into fiscal cutbacks. They destroy the team's infrastructure to counter losses in revenue. They trim payroll - from infrastructural staff to players.

That's exactly how you get a strategy reliant on development of youth not having a player development department and only carrying a barebones coaching and training staff. Its how you end up hiring a head coach having ZERO head coaching experience, no college - not even junior college, no G-League, no international, not even high school head coaching experience. The absolute most important player development person on any team, much less a rebuilding one, had ZERO head coaching experience.

But hey, at least the Magic got to sell fans the hope and short lived hype of "potential" of the youngest GM in NBA history and his promise of a "youth movement."

Spoiler:
2012-13: Orlando had the highest lottery odds...but got the 2nd pick (Oladipo). They got jumped by the team that won 4 games more than them. Giannis Antetokuonmpo was the #15 pick. The second most impactful player was Rudy Gobert, the 27th pick.

2013-14: Orlando had the 3d best odds...but got the 4th pick (Gordon). They got jumped by a team that won 10 more games than them. Nikola Jokic was picked 41st.

2014-15: Orlando had the 5th best odds...got the 5th pick (Hezonja). Mario busted.

2015-16: Magic had 11th best odds...got the 11th pick (traded D Sabonis to OKC). Paskal Siakim was picked 27th by Masai/Weltman FO; ROY Malcom Brogdon was picked 36th by John Hammond.

2016-17: Magic had 5th best odds...got jumped again....got the 6th pick (J Isaac)...also traded for the #1 pick Markelle Fultz. Donavon Mitchell was picked at #13.

2017-18: Magic had 5th best odds...got jumped yet again...got the 6th pick (Bamba)
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1972 » by Skin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:39 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Oh is that all? :lol:

For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star...and that's a trend that is increasingly widening.

The data used for tank logic is based on incompatible information and microscopic sample size...most of which occurred prior to the CBA changes, prior to various lottery reforms, prior to the dramatic change of age that players entered the NBA, prior to the era of player empowerment dramatically changing player movement etc etc etc...

What most of the tank teams conveniently leave out of their "hope" and "great future" propaganda is that it's a rarity that those "tank" acquired players will reach their prime "star" level on the team that drafted them. It is even more extremely rare that they carry their draft team to contention. The norm is that those players are long gone before or at their first unrestricted free agency and get poached by the smart franchises.

If you think we have the right front office then yeah... that's all. Get a high pick, pick the right player.

All too often, trash GMs follow the draft media pundits and mock drafter rankings in order to save face in case the player doesn't pan out. I actually like our front office in terms of drafting. They don't seem to be afraid of drafting according to beat of their own drum. Okeke was a reach to most, but they stuck to their beliefs. I think he'll pan out... we'll see...

I think our problem is that we haven't been in position to draft any star talent. Making the playoffs was about as neat as watching water dry in the sun. The whole "we have a winning culture now" and "we know how to win now" and "we know how to play with each other" hoopla is just that... words to help preseason ticket sales.

What are our expectations supposed to be for this year?


My expectations are that the team play +82 games that matter, and that the younger players develop inside that type of context. I 100% totally disagree that making the playoffs was meaningless from team building and from fan enjoyment pov.

Playing in +82 meaningful games is the best context for player development (as opposed to teaching players how to lose); its better for asset values; its better for franchise desirability in future free agencies...all that equals better options for transactional improvement (the most important tool in successful team building in contemporary NBA).

Its even better for the team's sustainability, that feeds the team infrastructure, that feeds the team performance...its all connected.

Tank teams, especially small market ones, go into fiscal cutbacks. They destroy the team's infrastructure to counter losses in revenue. They trim payroll - from infrastructural staff to players.

That's exactly how you get a strategy reliant on development of youth not having a player development department and only carrying a barebones coaching and training staff. Its how you end up hiring a head coach having ZERO head coaching experience, no college - not even junior college, no G-League, no international, not even high school head coaching experience. The absolute most important player development person on any team, much less a rebuilding one, had ZERO head coaching experience.

But hey, at least the Magic got to sell fans the hope and short lived hype of "potential" of the youngest GM in NBA history and his promise of a "youth movement."

Spoiler:
2012-13: Orlando had the highest lottery odds...but got the 2nd pick (Oladipo). They got jumped by the team that won 4 games more than them. Giannis Antetokuonmpo was the #15 pick. The second most impactful player was Rudy Gobert, the 27th pick.

2013-14: Orlando had the 3d best odds...but got the 4th pick (Gordon). They got jumped by a team that won 10 more games than them. Nikola Jokic was picked 41st.

2014-15: Orlando had the 5th best odds...got the 5th pick (Hezonja). Mario busted.

2015-16: Magic had 11th best odds...got the 11th pick (traded D Sabonis to OKC). Paskal Siakim was picked 27th by Masai/Weltman FO; ROY Malcom Brogdon was picked 36th by John Hammond.

2016-17: Magic had 5th best odds...got jumped again....got the 6th pick (J Isaac)...also traded for the #1 pick Markelle Fultz. Donavon Mitchell was picked at #13.

2017-18: Magic had 5th best odds...got jumped yet again...got the 6th pick (Bamba)

Like I said... I like the way our FO thinks about and scouts the draft. They seem to lose a nut when it comes to FA and I don't know why that is, but whatever. I do try to stay enthusiastic about new additions and give em a chance (until they start to look like bad investments).

If your examples like Giannis, Siakam, Brogdon, Gobert, Jokic, Mitchell are trying to paint a picture of the norm rather than the exception, then that's where we disagree. Can it be done? Sure... As "exceptions" and "surprises".

Picking higher in the draft is supposed to increase the odds of getting a star. Believe it or not, teams in the lottery want to win the lottery for a reason.

Because getting to 82 meaningful games is not hard if you're trying to max out as a first round playoff pretender.

I much prefer a rebuild based on clearing cap space for at least 2 max FAs at the cost of fielding piss poor teams that will lead to high lottery picks along the way.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1973 » by ezzzp » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:53 am

Skin wrote:
Like I said... I like the way our FO thinks about and scouts the draft. They seem to lose a nut when it comes to FA and I don't know why that is, but whatever. I do try to stay enthusiastic about new additions and give em a chance (until they start to look like bad investments).

If your examples like Giannis, Siakam, Brogdon, Gobert, Jokic, Mitchell are trying to paint a picture of the norm rather than the exception, then that's where we disagree. Can it be done? Sure... As "exceptions" and "surprises".

Picking higher in the draft is supposed to increase the odds of getting a star. Believe it or not, teams in the lottery want to win the lottery for a reason.

Because getting to 82 meaningful games is not hard if you're trying to max out as a first round playoff pretender.

I much prefer a rebuild based on clearing cap space for at least 2 max FAs at the cost of fielding piss poor teams that will lead to high lottery picks along the way.



My words: "For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star"

What part of that says I'm calling that the norm?

Believe it or not, odds aren't reality. That's why the vast majority of teams in the lottery don't get a star.

The Magic are still one of the younger teams in the NBA. They start Fultz 22, Isaac 21 and Gordon 24 + give key rotation minutes to Bamba 21. The team is built to develop quality upside youth within a competitive floor sustained by solid in-prime players (Vucevic 29, Ross, 28, Fournier 27, Aminu 28).

Rob Hennigan also preferred that cap clearing free agency mirage chasing "2 max free agents". That's exactly how we lost Oladipo and Harris; and ended with free agent prizes like Jeff Green and Bizmack Biyombo. Top tier free agents do NOT sign or re-sign to small market franchises that have been losing on purpose for half a decade.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1974 » by MagicFan4Lyfe » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:01 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Tanking is only part of it. You have to choose the right player.


Oh is that all? :lol:

For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star...and that's a trend that is increasingly widening.

The data used for tank logic is based on incompatible information and microscopic sample size...most of which occurred prior to the CBA changes, prior to various lottery reforms, prior to the dramatic change of age that players entered the NBA, prior to the era of player empowerment dramatically changing player movement etc etc etc...

What most of the tank teams conveniently leave out of their "hope" and "great future" propaganda is that it's a rarity that those "tank" acquired players will reach their prime "star" level on the team that drafted them. It is even more extremely rare that they carry their draft team to contention. The norm is that those players are long gone before or at their first unrestricted free agency and get poached by the smart franchises.

If you think we have the right front office then yeah... that's all. Get a high pick, pick the right player.

All too often, trash GMs follow the draft media pundits and mock drafter rankings in order to save face in case the player doesn't pan out. I actually like our front office in terms of drafting. They don't seem to be afraid of drafting according to beat of their own drum. Okeke was a reach to most, but they stuck to their beliefs. I think he'll pan out... we'll see...

I think our problem is that we haven't been in position to draft any star talent. Making the playoffs was about as neat as watching water dry in the sun. The whole "we have a winning culture now" and "we know how to win now" and "we know how to play with each other" hoopla is just that... words to help preseason ticket sales.

What are our expectations supposed to be for this year?


Another first round exit.
We sell 2 home game tickets and concessions that go along with it.

Alex Martins is a happy man.

Rinse and repeat.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1975 » by MagicFan4Lyfe » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:04 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
Like I said... I like the way our FO thinks about and scouts the draft. They seem to lose a nut when it comes to FA and I don't know why that is, but whatever. I do try to stay enthusiastic about new additions and give em a chance (until they start to look like bad investments).

If your examples like Giannis, Siakam, Brogdon, Gobert, Jokic, Mitchell are trying to paint a picture of the norm rather than the exception, then that's where we disagree. Can it be done? Sure... As "exceptions" and "surprises".

Picking higher in the draft is supposed to increase the odds of getting a star. Believe it or not, teams in the lottery want to win the lottery for a reason.

Because getting to 82 meaningful games is not hard if you're trying to max out as a first round playoff pretender.

I much prefer a rebuild based on clearing cap space for at least 2 max FAs at the cost of fielding piss poor teams that will lead to high lottery picks along the way.



My words: "For every anomaly high pick star, I can point you an anomaly low pick star"

What part of that says I'm calling that the norm?

Believe it or not, odds aren't reality. That's why the vast majority of teams in the lottery don't get a star.

The Magic are still one of the younger teams in the NBA. They start Fultz 22, Isaac 21 and Gordon 24 + give key rotation minutes to Bamba 21. The team is built to develop quality upside youth within a competitive floor sustained by solid in-prime players (Vucevic 29, Ross, 28, Fournier 27, Aminu 28).

Rob Hennigan also preferred that cap clearing free agency mirage chasing "2 max free agents". That's exactly how we lost Oladipo and Harris; and ended with free agent prizes like Jeff Green and Bizmack Biyombo. Top tier free agents do NOT sign or re-sign to small market franchises that have been losing on purpose for half a decade.


I would not include Fournier and Aminu as the type of players who are foundational pieces to take us to the next level.

Vuc is a solid #3 player on a contender.

And The Human Torch is perfectly where he needs to be. Problem is we don’t have the pieces yet and everyone is not playing their proper role.

When Vuc and Fournier are your top 2 offensive players our ceiling is not very high. When they become complimentary pieces on a team then you know we have a contending team.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1976 » by IllMagic04 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:11 pm

I cannot believe there is still a debate between to tank or not to tank. Like how many times have pointless wins burned us? Im sorry but anti tankers are clueless. We are where we are cause we never commited to tanking.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1977 » by Bergmaniac » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:32 pm

What's the point of this debate when it's clear the management doesn't want to tank?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1978 » by j-ragg » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:37 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:I cannot believe there is still a debate between to tank or not to tank. Like how many times have pointless wins burned us? Im sorry but anti tankers are clueless. We are where we are cause we never commited to tanking.

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Just gotta give this core a few more seasons to see what they have relax man.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1979 » by VFX » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:58 pm

j-ragg wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I cannot believe there is still a debate between to tank or not to tank. Like how many times have pointless wins burned us? Im sorry but anti tankers are clueless. We are where we are cause we never commited to tanking.

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Just gotta give this core a few more seasons to see what they have relax man.


:lol:

I think we need more data on Vuc, AG, and Fournier playing together... we can’t be entirely too sure.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1980 » by j-ragg » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:17 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I cannot believe there is still a debate between to tank or not to tank. Like how many times have pointless wins burned us? Im sorry but anti tankers are clueless. We are where we are cause we never commited to tanking.

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Just gotta give this core a few more seasons to see what they have relax man.


:lol:

I think we need more data on Vuc, AG, and Fournier playing together... we can’t be entirely too sure.

Management is gonna be waiting on a Kawhi type trade until these guys are ready for retirement.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.

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