MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[Je K]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD unless we're counting variations of "Lol at AD being better" as argument, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

No one is giving you an argument because you refuse to accept fundamental things like stats (and advanced stats) - the numbers that take away bias in evaluating basketball ability. Coincidentally, stats show that Giannis is a decisively better player than AD.

But if you're looking for specific aspects of basketball that Giannis is better at, how about dribbling, passing, finishing, rebounding, help defense, efficiency, and transitions (offense and defense)?

EDIT: You sound like Gooner who always claimed Giannis was not a good player because of the "eye test" and refused to accept any statistics.

[ProfessorJM]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

I've been more than happy to trash LeBron defensively in recent years, but I think this year he has clearly been engaged and doing pretty well defensively given his age and overall offensive responsibilities.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Is that the kind of "evidence" you're looking for? What are we supposed to extract from that - that Davis is the 4th best defender on the Lakers and barely top 50 in the league?

Yes, my arguments aren't filled with "hard evidence" because they're based around an analysis of the players skillsets rather than just regurgitating stats. I don't generally feel sports can be captured accurately by stats, but this is even more true of basketball since the gap in level between the regular season and high leverage playoff series is just so huge. We saw it with Giannis last season when his amazing stats took a massive nosedive in the ECF; the fact that AD remained dominant when facing great playoff teams is a decisive factor for me in this argument since it shows his game translate into high stakes situations. Also, AD being able to mesh with someone like Lebron on offense due to his ability to dominate without the ball in his hands is something that is not captured by any stat but which is unbelievably valuable.

Looking at the two and what they can do, I'm taking AD every day of the week; better rim protector, shot blocker and perimeter/wing defender on defense, more versatile scorer (and crucially much better from the free throw line) and off ball player on offense. If you think Giannis is better, what exactly does he do better than AD aside from being able to quarterback an offense (but not to an elite level like a Lebron or James Harden anyway)?

But as I said, Giannis is the current flavor of the month while AD's last year in NO made no favors to his reputation so most people will say he's better now, but we'll know the answer in May and June.

Evaluating a player's impact on team defense should be the foundation of this discussion. Otherwise anyone could say anything and chalk it up to the "eye test".

The truth is, AD would have been stunted by the Raps last year just like every other big man they faced. It had nothing to do with Giannis being exposed, which is such a lazy narrative.

Based on? We've seen AD in the playoffs and he's been dominant. 2 of his 3 series were against the dynasty Warriors, an elite playoff defense with Draymond Green as his direct matchup. That dominance was also achieved with a far inferior supporting cast and spacing than what Giannis had.

It is very lazy to assume AD would have struggled vs the Raptors like Giannis and Embiid did when AD's playoff history suggests he can't really be stunted by elite defense + his offensive skillset is more varied and he's better playing off the ball than those two. Giannis struggling offensively isn't a "lazy narrative", it's based on fact, I mean I doubt even his most ardent fans will claim he had a good offensive series; AD being hypothetically stunted otoh is fabrication not grounded on any real precedent in his career considering how most of his short playoff history consists of dropping an efficient 30ppg against an elite defense anchored by a DPOY at his position.

Regarding defense, I agree, all those I'm complimenting AD on obviously help at the team level, him protecting the rim, blocking shots, guarding smaller players on the perimeter, etc... make his team defense better. Yes, I'm confident any team's defense will improve substantially if they introduce AD into the mix. Can I quantify this improvement? Well, of course not, nobody can and it'll be different depending on the particular situation anyway.

Vuc, Embiid and Giannis were all stunted by the Raps defense which was designed to stop opposing bigs. Given how those guys compare to AD offensively, we should expect a similar decline in this hypothetical (against what was truly an all-time elite defense). There's a reason the Bucks outscored the Raps with Giannis on the floor, and the Sixers outscored the Raps with Embiid on the floor. Their gravity opened up the floor for every other player.

Draymond isn't some great man defender against scoring bigs; he's an all time great help defender. It's totally different from rotations of Gasol/Ibaka/Siakam/Kawhi.

You refer to AD's playoff success but he won a single playoff series in his career and more often than not wound up in the lottery.

[Vsauce12]

Rockets up by 40, Harden still on the floor padding his stats, dude has no shame

[duppyy]

Rockets up by 40, Harden still on the floor padding his stats, dude has no shame

Was about to post the same thing. No shame whatsoever

[Nacho Bidness]

Rockets up by 40, Harden still on the floor padding his stats, dude has no shame

[Triples333]

Harden is disqualified from MVP in my book. Win a big game son.

[HotRocks34]

Beard 60 points through three quarters.

[spacepimp]

In only 31 min

[HotRocks34]

Statz

Read on Twitter

[Yuri36]

Rockets up by 40, Harden still on the floor padding his stats, dude has no shame

Was about to post the same thing. No shame whatsoever

Imagine what Houston's bench guys must be thinking....

[Nacho Bidness]

[spacepimp]

Rockets up by 40, Harden still on the floor padding his stats, dude has no shame

Was about to post the same thing. No shame whatsoever

Imagine what Houston's bench Tguys must be thinking....

They are thinking yes I get to play the whole 4th quater

[Orange Mamba]

How is it stat padding if Trae Young/the Hawk starters are still in the game?

[Yuri36]

Was about to post the same thing. No shame whatsoever

Imagine what Houston's bench Tguys must be thinking....

They are thinking yes I get to play the whole 4th quater

Yeah i'm sorry, I was a bit too harsh with Harden as he's not played in the 4th quarter at all.

[Dupp]

Giannis dominates the ball too no?

Also they are close because the media votes for this award not you and a lot of the media are talking about the lakers and saying lebron is mvp. That’s not blind Stanhood it’s reality.

Dominated the **** out of the ball with Middleton out. Was probably in that 40USG% Harden range. Was very fun to watch and we won all 7-8 of those games. Less so with the whole team playing, still finishes heaps of plays but he spends a bunch more time off ball than non-Bucks fans tend to think.

Dominating the ball isn’t a bad thing for guys like lebron, harden, giannis etc. dunno why it gets out out there as a negative.

[Dupp]

Wait if harden really had 60 through three quarters why wouldn’t he play the fourth? That’s 80 point pace. Trashing him for going for something like that is dumb imo.

If he had 40 sure but 60? Go get as many points as you can.

[Ballerhogger]

harden reminds me of wilt and getting his stats

[Nacho Bidness]

Wait if harden really had 60 through three quarters why wouldn’t he play the fourth? That’s 80 point pace. Trashing him for going for something like that is dumb imo.

If he had 40 sure but 60? Go get as many points as you can.

exactly!

I don't understand this muppet attitude I see here

[inquisitive]

Harden should've stayed in for the 4th and go for Kobe's record! You only live once!!