MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[yoyoboy]

1. Giannis
2. Luka
3. Towns

everyone else

Picking KAT over LeBron and Harden is odd. KAT has already missed 2 games (compared to their 0) and he’s on a negative SRS team while only boasting a +2.4 on-court. Almost all of his value comes from the offensive side of the ball and yet he’s leading an 18th ranked offense.

I think Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Doncic is the clear top 4 so far. And then KAT, Siakam, Butler, and Lillard come into play.

[Vsauce12]

I don’t know what kind of crap you have to be smoking to seriously try an argue AD>>>Giannis

This isn’t 2017, Giannis jumped over AD really freaking quick. It’s not a debate unless you’re just a person who likes to argue for the sake of it

[clyde21]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD unless we're counting variations of "Lol at AD being better" as argument, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

i mena, it's pretty straightforward. Giannis is on pace to get his second MVP while AD has yet to sniff even one. Giannis is an infinitely better playmaker, just as good of a scorer, better 3 level defender, better transition player, the more durable player by a mile, and is coming off a season in which he led his team to 67 wins and the ECF while Davis could barely even get his team to .500 while he was on the floor.

like, it's not even a discussion at this point. anyone that takes Davis over Giannis just doesn't know basketball...point blank.

Giannis winning MVP only means his team had a better record, he certainly wasn't winning them when the Bucks were struggling to make the playoffs. It says nothing about how they compare individually..

Better playmaker and more durable are true, the rest not really. Giannis being a better 3-level defender is bordering on absurd imo, AD is better protecting the paint/blocking shots, locking down guys on the perimeter, guarding the pick and roll, I see no advantage for Giannis at all.

Just as good a scorer is true in the RS maybe, definitely not in the playoffs and the numbers bear that pretty clearly. Even aside from them, AD is just a more versatile scorer while Giannis is only really elite scoring in the paint, struggles from every other area of the floor and can be a liability from the free throw line. Also, not that it matters but the Bucks won 60 games last season, not 67.

uhm, yea, MVP has a lot to do with record and how much players elevate their teams...that's kinda the point dude. Giannis has proven over and over again he has the ability carry a team to elite levels, something Davis has NEVER done. dude struggled getting his team to .500 and then ran to LA like a weenie because it got too hard for him.

and you're glossing over the playmaking/durability differences for both players like, even if I grant you defense (I disagree, but you can have it for the sake of the argument) for Davis the variance between the two there isn't even remotely close to the difference in playmaking and availability and ability to carry teams.

so yea, it's Giannis >> Davis and it's not even close right now until further notice.

[clyde21]

1. Giannis
2. Luka
3. Towns

everyone else

Picking KAT over LeBron and Harden is odd. KAT has already missed 2 games (compared to their 0) and he’s on a negative SRS team while only boasting a +2.4 on-court. Almost all of his value comes from the offensive side of the ball and yet he’s leading an 18th ranked offense.

I think Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Doncic is the clear top 4 so far. And then KAT, Siakam, Butler, and Lillard come into play.

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

For the record, I don't dislike Giannis and hope he can match people's expectations of him. But he better show a lot more these coming playoffs given all the hype he's getting here with people saying he's better than AD and Lebron, a repeat of what happened last season will make the position that he's league-best level completely untenable.

He was about to take his team to the finals before he got fouled out on a weak call in Game 3. If they call a block instead of a charge, are we even having this conversation? He only really had 2 bad games in the ECF and one of those bad games was a 12/23/7/4.

[yoyoboy]

For the record, I don't dislike Giannis and hope he can match people's expectations of him. But he better show a lot more these coming playoffs given all the hype he's getting here with people saying he's better than AD and Lebron, a repeat of what happened last season will make the position that he's league-best level completely untenable.

He was about to take his team to the finals before he got fouled out on a weak call in Game 3. If they call a block instead of a charge, are we even having this conversation? He only really had 2 bad games in the ECF and one of those bad games was a 12/23/7/4.

You can play the what if game all day long but the fact is he did get fouled out. And he went on to lose 3 straight games after that. 23 ppg on 51.8% TS with 4.2 tov per game is very disappointing for the reigning MVP no matter how you spin it. Along with allowing Kawhi to drop 30 ppg on 57.4% TS.

[Dupp]

For the record, I don't dislike Giannis and hope he can match people's expectations of him. But he better show a lot more these coming playoffs given all the hype he's getting here with people saying he's better than AD and Lebron, a repeat of what happened last season will make the position that he's league-best level completely untenable.

He was about to take his team to the finals before he got fouled out on a weak call in Game 3. If they call a block instead of a charge, are we even having this conversation? He only really had 2 bad games in the ECF and one of those bad games was a 12/23/7/4.

You can play the what if game all day long but the fact is he did get fouled out. And he went on to lose 3 straight games after that. 23 ppg on 51.8% TS with 4.2 tov per game is very disappointing for the reigning MVP no matter how you spin it. Along with allowing Kawhi to drop 30 ppg on 57.4% TS.

Won’t get into the what if’s on the bucks going up 3-0 but bud not putting giannis on kawhi was a pretty big mistake that doesn’t really get a mention.

[Dupp]

1. Giannis
2. Luka
3. Towns

everyone else

Picking KAT over LeBron and Harden is odd. KAT has already missed 2 games (compared to their 0) and he’s on a negative SRS team while only boasting a +2.4 on-court. Almost all of his value comes from the offensive side of the ball and yet he’s leading an 18th ranked offense.

I think Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Doncic is the clear top 4 so far. And then KAT, Siakam, Butler, and Lillard come into play.

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

[clyde21]

Picking KAT over LeBron and Harden is odd. KAT has already missed 2 games (compared to their 0) and he’s on a negative SRS team while only boasting a +2.4 on-court. Almost all of his value comes from the offensive side of the ball and yet he’s leading an 18th ranked offense.

I think Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Doncic is the clear top 4 so far. And then KAT, Siakam, Butler, and Lillard come into play.

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

[mademan]

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

Steph and KD is actually a great comparison. Steph killed KD in all the advanced impact stats while KD was ahead in box score metrics, like the Lebron-AD dynamic

[Statlanta]

Anthony Davis is better than Giannis.

Giannis is a better regular season player and thus more deserving of an MVP.

These two are not mutually exclusive.

Just because Bud allows Giannis to dribble on the perimeter and run plays doesn't automatically make him better if he's bricking FTs providing negligent off-ball value and throwing turnovers. People also don't consider the fact that Davis is in a completely new offensive system, being force fed the ball in awkward spots doing things he's good but not great at, with two guys who call their own stuff and a coach who is a below average offensive coach.

[clyde21]

Anthony Davis is better than Giannis.

Giannis is a better regular season player and thus more deserving of an MVP.

These two are not mutually exclusive.

Just because Bud allows Giannis to dribble on the perimeter and run plays doesn't automatically make him better if he's bricking FTs providing negligent off-ball value and throwing turnovers. People also don't consider the fact that Davis is in a completely new offensive system, being force fed the ball in awkward spots doing things he's good but not great at, with two guys who call their own stuff and a coach who is a below average offensive coach.

1. Giannis commits more TOs because he's playmaking more, only natural

2. 'just because Bud allows Giannis to dribble'...what does that even mean? Bud allows Giannis to dribble because Giannis can dribble and pass and run offense, things that Davis can't do.

[Dupp]

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

That’s still an emotional response unless you believe they were right to disqualify those two guys. There’s more to it than that anyway. The team outside those two guys was way better and kd joined that great team. The talent disparity between the warriors and the rest of the league was huge. That’s not the case now. Anyway that’s all realgm talk neither guy got robbed of any award.


The emotional thing was more to do with harden anyway. His “schtick “ play was better than Stephs was in their playoff series together so does that make Stephs game a Schtick too? I bring up that series because i assume by schtick you mean his play or impact doesn’t carry over to the playoffs once he loses calls to tougher d and tighter whistles. Not that that is really relevant to a regular season award.

[clyde21]

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

That’s still an emotional response unless you believe they were right to disqualify those two guys. There’s more to it than that anyway. The team outside those two guys was way better and kd joined that great team. The talent disparity between the warriors and the rest of the league was huge. That’s not the case now. Anyway that’s all realgm talk neither guy got robbed of any award.


The emotional thing was more to do with harden anyway. His “schtick “ play was better than Stephs was in their playoff series together so does that make Stephs game a Schtick too? I bring up that series because i assume by schtick you mean his play or impact doesn’t carry over to the playoffs once he loses calls to tougher d and tighter whistles. Not that that is really relevant to a regular season award.

you can't pick and choose when to apply those standards...if Steph/KD were DQ'd...and for 3 straight years mind you, then AD/LeBron should be DQ'd too. if that's not the case then you (not you, people who thought this in general) are the ones being emotional, not me. I'm just applying those same standards across the board.

as for Harden, we've been there done that. i'm not a fan of insanely high-usage players who can't contribute without the ball in their hands, felt the same way about Russ when he won his MVP and have always felt this about Harden. I see nothing in his game that makes the players around him better. so yea, he's doing the heavy lifting now, but that isn't scalable at all and i'm not sure why people think this year is different.

[Jurassic_Park]

LeBron has another MVP caliber player with him he's disqualified per RealGM

and I'm no longer buying Harden's schtick.

Aka both the James’ are disqualified because emotion.

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

Majority of this board are lebron stans.. what did you expect.

Lakers L's will pile up soon, he wont be in the mvp convo for long.

[Vsauce12]

The Ls from the Knicks really fking Luka rn. Mavs could be like 15-4

[Lord Cuban]

The Ls from the Knicks really fking Luka rn. Mavs could be like 15-4

The loss vs Lakers too

[LoneyROY]

not really, just trying to maintain some semblance of consistency here. for 3 years straight you guys -- especially LeBron guys -- told us that KD and Steph were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together...why doesn't that apply to LeBron/AD?

That’s still an emotional response unless you believe they were right to disqualify those two guys. There’s more to it than that anyway. The team outside those two guys was way better and kd joined that great team. The talent disparity between the warriors and the rest of the league was huge. That’s not the case now. Anyway that’s all realgm talk neither guy got robbed of any award.


The emotional thing was more to do with harden anyway. His “schtick “ play was better than Stephs was in their playoff series together so does that make Stephs game a Schtick too? I bring up that series because i assume by schtick you mean his play or impact doesn’t carry over to the playoffs once he loses calls to tougher d and tighter whistles. Not that that is really relevant to a regular season award.

you can't pick and choose when to apply those standards...if Steph/KD were DQ'd...and for 3 straight years mind you, then AD/LeBron should be DQ'd too. if that's not the case then you (not you, people who thought this in general) are the ones being emotional, not me. I'm just applying those same standards across the board.

as for Harden, we've been there done that. i'm not a fan of insanely high-usage players who can't contribute without the ball in their hands, felt the same way about Russ when he won his MVP and have always felt this about Harden. I see nothing in his game that makes the players around him better. so yea, he's doing the heavy lifting now, but that isn't scalable at all and i'm not sure why people think this year is different.

Jesus, what a mindnumbing take. However, unsurprising considering the source.

There is NOTHING in Harden’s game that makes players around him better, according to the guy who was noticeably absent as a prime Steph Curry wasn’t looking so capable of elevating much to start this season.



Harden just takes his team to the playoffs as a high seed every single year. Turns players who were barely relevant in the league into viable rotation players. But does NOTHING to make players around him better.

It’s honestly so stupid it’s not even worth responding to, but f*ck it.

[clyde21]

That’s still an emotional response unless you believe they were right to disqualify those two guys. There’s more to it than that anyway. The team outside those two guys was way better and kd joined that great team. The talent disparity between the warriors and the rest of the league was huge. That’s not the case now. Anyway that’s all realgm talk neither guy got robbed of any award.


The emotional thing was more to do with harden anyway. His “schtick “ play was better than Stephs was in their playoff series together so does that make Stephs game a Schtick too? I bring up that series because i assume by schtick you mean his play or impact doesn’t carry over to the playoffs once he loses calls to tougher d and tighter whistles. Not that that is really relevant to a regular season award.

you can't pick and choose when to apply those standards...if Steph/KD were DQ'd...and for 3 straight years mind you, then AD/LeBron should be DQ'd too. if that's not the case then you (not you, people who thought this in general) are the ones being emotional, not me. I'm just applying those same standards across the board.

as for Harden, we've been there done that. i'm not a fan of insanely high-usage players who can't contribute without the ball in their hands, felt the same way about Russ when he won his MVP and have always felt this about Harden. I see nothing in his game that makes the players around him better. so yea, he's doing the heavy lifting now, but that isn't scalable at all and i'm not sure why people think this year is different.

Jesus, what a mindnumbing take. However, unsurprising considering the source.

There is NOTHING in Harden’s game that makes players around him better, according to the guy who was noticeably absent as a prime Steph Curry wasn’t looking so capable of elevating much to start this season.



Harden just takes his team to the playoffs as a high seed every single year. Turns players who were barely relevant in the league into viable rotation players. But does NOTHING to make players around him better.

It’s honestly so stupid it’s not even worth responding to, but f*ck it.

sorry, just don't think harden's game makes anyone else around better.

no offense, of course.

[LoneyROY]

you can't pick and choose when to apply those standards...if Steph/KD were DQ'd...and for 3 straight years mind you, then AD/LeBron should be DQ'd too. if that's not the case then you (not you, people who thought this in general) are the ones being emotional, not me. I'm just applying those same standards across the board.

as for Harden, we've been there done that. i'm not a fan of insanely high-usage players who can't contribute without the ball in their hands, felt the same way about Russ when he won his MVP and have always felt this about Harden. I see nothing in his game that makes the players around him better. so yea, he's doing the heavy lifting now, but that isn't scalable at all and i'm not sure why people think this year is different.

Jesus, what a mindnumbing take. However, unsurprising considering the source.

There is NOTHING in Harden’s game that makes players around him better, according to the guy who was noticeably absent as a prime Steph Curry wasn’t looking so capable of elevating much to start this season.



Harden just takes his team to the playoffs as a high seed every single year. Turns players who were barely relevant in the league into viable rotation players. But does NOTHING to make players around him better.

It’s honestly so stupid it’s not even worth responding to, but f*ck it.

sorry, just don't think harden's game makes anyone else around better.

no offense, of course.

And you’ve backed it up with irrefutable evidence too.