The 2019-20 Luka Dončić Thread

[Doctor MJ]

A thought:

I mock the Suns and the Kings for passing on Luka out of fear of a white stiff, but it's funny now that we've actually arrived at a moment I remember talked about back for decades. We've been promised these European players as being superhuman in various ways and again and again they've fallen short of the hype. (No disrespect to the Dirk Nowitzki's of the world, the issue isn't whether we get superstar talent from Europe but our inability to have any idea who actually has that capability before the draft.)

In Luka we finally have someone who has all the hype from Europe and then quickly demonstrates and improves upon what we hoped for. In this sense, it really does remind of LeBron. There's a similar sense of shock and someone being this in-command this quickly that I can't recall seeing from anyone.

Kinda highlights a huge scouting flaw nba teams have for non American players.

Still Donic was pretty available for everyone to watch and he was very hyped already. He wasn’t a secret basically and the signs of his development were well and truely there. Sure him reaching this level so fast wasn’t a realistic expectation but it’s still one of the all time worst passes by those teams.

Dallas getting luka with the 5th pick really is mind boggling. Well done to them but embarrassing for the other teams.

It’s just a shame mavs couldn’t get any help dorks whole career basically and a year after his retirement they pull this one out.

All true, and it really is worth noting that the teams holding the 3rd & 4th picks aren't off the hook entirely either, but man, Phoenix and Sacramento. This was LEGENDARILY bad drafting from two organizations that were already well-established as very bad decision makers. Those picks may well be talked about forever, and frankly if the alternative is talking about Detroit with Darko or Houston/Portland with regards to Jordan, they deserve to be. Passing on Luka was worse.

And worse in part because it's quite clear what shaped their decision, in my opinion. They passed on Luka in part because of fear of picking a Euro stiff. It's not a thought they should have had simply based on how Luka played, and it's not a thought they had because they "knew" he'd be a bust. They avoided taking the guy seen as the #1 pick out of fear of what it would look like if he became a bust.

It's frankly the type of thinking that I don't think good franchises would ever give much credence to. Danny Ainge ain't sitting around thinking, "But how will it look when I'm wrong?", and that's probably because most of his decisions aren't wrong. Phoenix and Sacramento on the other hand have made wrong decisions after wrong decision for years so looking to mitigate the inevitable humiliation of seeing their incompetence on display once again is likely something so much a part of their thought process that they didn't seem to think through how bad they'd look if the #1 prospect actually turned out to be the best player.

I don't really like how fascinating I find their misery, but dayum. Passing on Luka was not something that the team with his coach should have made, and if Divac serves any purpose at all, it should be being able to sense who is legit from Europe. Seldom do you see something so damning it basically says in a nutshell why bad things will continue to happen in those organizations.

Re: Mavs. What's interesting with them is that there was a time when I considered them the smartest franchise in the NBA, but over the course of the 2010s they lost that. First gradually, then more dramatically. Getting Luka will likely make that shift back in the positive direction quite decisively, and frankly, it's hard to say they don't deserve that stature. In retrospect, the Mavs got by far the best player acquisition of the 2018 off-season using the 5th pick, and that is worth Executive of the Year and then some (if the timing were more immediate).

The Mavs made good and bad decisions like everyone else, but what this really goes to show his how long it can take a pretty good organization to get back on track.

[Dupp]

Dallas getting luka with the 5th pick really is mind boggling. Well done to them but embarrassing for the other teams.

It’s just a shame mavs couldn’t get any help dorks whole career basically and a year after his retirement they pull this one out.

yeah Dallas going into that draft with the 5th pick and walking away with Luka should have never been possible.


I think you are underestimating the help Dirk had. Now after Nash left in free agency he never had star level help again. But what Donnie did to re-shape the Mavs from an offense first and basically only team to a team truly built around Dirk was outstanding.

Remember the Mavs were touted as a big 3 with Finley as well, but they let Nash walk for nothing in the summer of 04 and the next summer they amnestied Finley losing him for nothing. And all they did was average over 60 wins a year including an absurd 67 wins in a season they started 0-4, meaning they played at over a 70 win pace after those first 4 games, and go to the Finals.

Now yes that success was mostly about Dirk being one of the best 2-3 players in the world at the time, but JET and Howard were good secondary scoring options. Damp/Diop a very solid defensive big combo, Griffin and Harris solid perimeter defenders, they always had pretty good depth.

Then of course after the 07 playoffs they really shifted and brought in Kidd and Marion, then made the big trade with Washington bringing in more quality depth in Tuff Juice, Hayward, and DeShawn and of course the move that put them over the top the Chandler deal.

Dirk had less star power help than any of his peers by far--even KG in Minnesota played a player better than anyone Dirk ever played with in 04 Cassell. But that doesn't mean he had no help. Dallas always paid tax until the new CBA after the lockout in 2011. Dallas was way ahead of the curve in terms of spending on analytics and huge coaching staffs. What almost every team now does, only Dallas under Cuban was doing.

Also just to be accurate they got Luka while Dirk was still here and I don't think that was any small thing or just a meaningless detail. Luka references Dirk a lot in talking about how to be a franchise player, how to work, how to embrace a city, etc.... Dirk was done as a player when Luka arrived, but still had plenty to show him. And of course despite his youth and self-confidence, Luka has shown himself willing to lean on the veterans---he also talks a lot about what Barea means as a guy who had to fight his way into the league, fight his way into minutes, and fight to stay in the league.

Current Mavs are a lot like those Dirk Mavs--no other star power though one can hope for KP to become that, but lots of guys around Luka who are quality players and who fit around him. Dallas definitely needs to upgrade, but this is nothing like Lebron last year playing with all those Laker kids who had a lot of hype but weren't nearly as effective as the current Mavs role players.

I don’t think I underestimate Dirks help. The mavs put together very good teams with good role players / borderline all star guys but really outside 11 I don’t see any title level casts ( yeah I know they could have easily won in 06).
I’m not trying to knock the mavs as a franchise but I firmly Dirk had less help than any other star ever just about. And by that I mean years with championship level supporting casts. He consistently had good teams that’s for sure but that’s not really what you want for guys like dirk you want years with chances at a title and I don’t think dirk had many of those.

A bit off topic I know. And yeah I forgot dirk was still there last year. Seems a while since he’s been gone. Still my points kinda the same coz like you said dirk was done by then.

[Aido]

I for one am anxious to see how Doncic does in the playoffs, hopefully his bag of tricks is a bit less predictable than someone like harden. Lukas still got room to grow as a passer despite being one of the best in the world anyway. I personally think its not outlandish to say that we might be seeing a player with goat level offence potential

[Mavericksfan]

Dallas getting luka with the 5th pick really is mind boggling. Well done to them but embarrassing for the other teams.

It’s just a shame mavs couldn’t get any help dorks whole career basically and a year after his retirement they pull this one out.

yeah Dallas going into that draft with the 5th pick and walking away with Luka should have never been possible.


I think you are underestimating the help Dirk had. Now after Nash left in free agency he never had star level help again. But what Donnie did to re-shape the Mavs from an offense first and basically only team to a team truly built around Dirk was outstanding.

Remember the Mavs were touted as a big 3 with Finley as well, but they let Nash walk for nothing in the summer of 04 and the next summer they amnestied Finley losing him for nothing. And all they did was average over 60 wins a year including an absurd 67 wins in a season they started 0-4, meaning they played at over a 70 win pace after those first 4 games, and go to the Finals.

Now yes that success was mostly about Dirk being one of the best 2-3 players in the world at the time, but JET and Howard were good secondary scoring options. Damp/Diop a very solid defensive big combo, Griffin and Harris solid perimeter defenders, they always had pretty good depth.

Then of course after the 07 playoffs they really shifted and brought in Kidd and Marion, then made the big trade with Washington bringing in more quality depth in Tuff Juice, Hayward, and DeShawn and of course the move that put them over the top the Chandler deal.

Dirk had less star power help than any of his peers by far--even KG in Minnesota played a player better than anyone Dirk ever played with in 04 Cassell. But that doesn't mean he had no help. Dallas always paid tax until the new CBA after the lockout in 2011. Dallas was way ahead of the curve in terms of spending on analytics and huge coaching staffs. What almost every team now does, only Dallas under Cuban was doing.

Also just to be accurate they got Luka while Dirk was still here and I don't think that was any small thing or just a meaningless detail. Luka references Dirk a lot in talking about how to be a franchise player, how to work, how to embrace a city, etc.... Dirk was done as a player when Luka arrived, but still had plenty to show him. And of course despite his youth and self-confidence, Luka has shown himself willing to lean on the veterans---he also talks a lot about what Barea means as a guy who had to fight his way into the league, fight his way into minutes, and fight to stay in the league.

Current Mavs are a lot like those Dirk Mavs--no other star power though one can hope for KP to become that, but lots of guys around Luka who are quality players and who fit around him. Dallas definitely needs to upgrade, but this is nothing like Lebron last year playing with all those Laker kids who had a lot of hype but weren't nearly as effective as the current Mavs role players.

I don’t think I underestimate Dirks help. The mavs put together very good teams with good role players / borderline all star guys but really outside 11 I don’t see any title level casts ( yeah I know they could have easily won in 06).
I’m not trying to knock the mavs as a franchise but I firmly Dirk had less help than any other star ever just about. And by that I mean years with championship level supporting casts. He consistently had good teams that’s for sure but that’s not really what you want for guys like dirk you want years with chances at a title and I don’t think dirk had many of those.

A bit off topic I know. And yeah I forgot dirk was still there last year. Seems a while since he’s been gone. Still my points kinda the same coz like you said dirk was done by then.

Early 2000s Mavs were legit

06-07 teams were legit

2011 was legit

[Johnny Firpo]

If you think oncic is an average defender you need to spend more time studying basketball.

Rewatch tonight's game and dare to say Doncic is a terrible defender. This idiotic hater nonsense has to stop, he is clearly an average defensive player and he played very good defense tonight.

[GSP]

03 Mavs wouldve prolly won the title if they were healthy TBH

no one from the Least was beating the West team coming out. Mavs were competitive in the last 3 games with Spurs, getting outscored by 2.3ppg with bum Walt Williams in his last year in the league taking Dirks starting roll

In Dirks decade+ long prime 06 was the only year the Mavs outscored their opposition with Dirk on the bench and it was barely by 0.6 net

Luka the past 2 years (specially if this Mavs bench play continues) prolly has deeper support than Dirk ever had. And most of Dirks prime his 2nd option was average Jason Terry......and Dirk still made the pickandpop with him more deadly than any play of that era besides Nash/Amare pickandroll.

Kp has his faults offensively but hes still a stretch big, has some skill and can clearly develop more. Hes already a great defensive player which is far more than u can say for Jet who was one of the worst perimeter defenders in the Nba for a while

[Jaivl]

Luka the past 2 years (specially if this Mavs bench play continues) prolly has deeper support than Dirk ever had. And most of Dirks prime his 2nd option was average Jason Terry......and Dirk still made the pickandpop with him more deadly than any play of that era besides Nash/Amare pickandroll.

Kp has his faults offensively but hes still a stretch big, has some skill and can clearly develop more. Hes already a great defensive player which is far more than u can say for Jet who was one of the worst perimeter defenders in the Nba for a while

Yeah that's... a massive overreaction. It's not going to age well.

[Heej]

[
Who said Davis could be the goat? And I mean apart from homer backseat couch potato fans. .

it was a major talking point on here and many of the most respected posters were saying it fwiw.

I remember this the first few years. As a LeBron Stan I wasn't on the bandwagon but I remember Davis basically set the PER record every year for his age group and thinking to myself this is probably the best preamble to a GOAT argument I've seen. Now it looks like Luka might very well take that designation considering how productive he is in lower minutes

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Luka the past 2 years (specially if this Mavs bench play continues) prolly has deeper support than Dirk ever had. And most of Dirks prime his 2nd option was average Jason Terry......and Dirk still made the pickandpop with him more deadly than any play of that era besides Nash/Amare pickandroll.

Kp has his faults offensively but hes still a stretch big, has some skill and can clearly develop more. Hes already a great defensive player which is far more than u can say for Jet who was one of the worst perimeter defenders in the Nba for a while

Yeah that's... a massive overreaction. It's not going to age well.

No it's not. Texas Chuck is way overrating Dirk's supporting cast. People don't realize just how mediocre they were. Adrian Griffin and Erik Dampier were starters on a team Dirk took to the Finals...

[zimpy27]

I for one am anxious to see how Doncic does in the playoffs, hopefully his bag of tricks is a bit less predictable than someone like harden. Lukas still got room to grow as a passer despite being one of the best in the world anyway. I personally think its not outlandish to say that we might be seeing a player with goat level offence potential

The problem Harden found in the playoffs is that fouls are not called as much and he takes too many iso 3s that are difficult to do with better defense.
I actually think predictability is a strength and my main concern with the expectations put on Luka to lead a championship run is that he gets by using unpredictability as a strength.

The way unpredictability hurts a player is if the players teammates don't expect what they will do. It's a fine line to be unpredictable to your opponent but predictable to your teammates so they can get in position to help you. Being too unpredictable is likely the reason Kyries teams seem to do worse with him on the court even though he's so incredibly skilled.

The absolute best a player can be offensively is predictable but still efficient.

I'm not saying Luka is unpredictable to his teammates, I just don't know yet. I'll be interested to see in the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

I for one am anxious to see how Doncic does in the playoffs, hopefully his bag of tricks is a bit less predictable than someone like harden. Lukas still got room to grow as a passer despite being one of the best in the world anyway. I personally think its not outlandish to say that we might be seeing a player with goat level offence potential

The problem Harden found in the playoffs is that fouls are not called as much and he takes too many iso 3s that are difficult to do with better defense.
I actually think predictability is a strength and my main concern with the expectations put on Luka to lead a championship run is that he gets by using unpredictability as a strength.

The way unpredictability hurts a player is if the players teammates don't expect what they will do. It's a fine line to be unpredictable to your opponent but predictable to your teammates so they can get in position to help you. Being too unpredictable is likely the reason Kyries teams seem to do worse with him on the court even though he's so incredibly skilled.

The absolute best a player can be offensively is predictable but still efficient.

I'm not saying Luka is unpredictable to his teammates, I just don't know yet. I'll be interested to see in the playoffs.

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

[RCM88x]

If he keeps up this level of offensive play and improves like a 20yo can he'll be the GOAT.

He'll even if he just keeps this up he might be. It's unbelievable.

[Blackmill]

Luka looked vulnerable against the Lakers' blitz. I'm not sure why they stopped. I didn't watch the Mav's loss to the Clippers, but LAC has a lot of good defenders who can ball pressure, did they blitz too?

[Dundalis]

I for one am anxious to see how Doncic does in the playoffs, hopefully his bag of tricks is a bit less predictable than someone like harden. Lukas still got room to grow as a passer despite being one of the best in the world anyway. I personally think its not outlandish to say that we might be seeing a player with goat level offence potential

The problem Harden found in the playoffs is that fouls are not called as much and he takes too many iso 3s that are difficult to do with better defense.
I actually think predictability is a strength and my main concern with the expectations put on Luka to lead a championship run is that he gets by using unpredictability as a strength.

The way unpredictability hurts a player is if the players teammates don't expect what they will do. It's a fine line to be unpredictable to your opponent but predictable to your teammates so they can get in position to help you. Being too unpredictable is likely the reason Kyries teams seem to do worse with him on the court even though he's so incredibly skilled.

The absolute best a player can be offensively is predictable but still efficient.

I'm not saying Luka is unpredictable to his teammates, I just don't know yet. I'll be interested to see in the playoffs.

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

[LKN]

Doncic is deceptively quick (although I think his "lack of athleticism" is overblown personally)... he blew by AD off the dribble a few times last night.

[Doctor MJ]

The problem Harden found in the playoffs is that fouls are not called as much and he takes too many iso 3s that are difficult to do with better defense.
I actually think predictability is a strength and my main concern with the expectations put on Luka to lead a championship run is that he gets by using unpredictability as a strength.

The way unpredictability hurts a player is if the players teammates don't expect what they will do. It's a fine line to be unpredictable to your opponent but predictable to your teammates so they can get in position to help you. Being too unpredictable is likely the reason Kyries teams seem to do worse with him on the court even though he's so incredibly skilled.

The absolute best a player can be offensively is predictable but still efficient.

I'm not saying Luka is unpredictable to his teammates, I just don't know yet. I'll be interested to see in the playoffs.

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

Interesting. Luka's currently leading the league in time of possession ahead of Harden.

[Peregrine01]

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

Interesting. Luka's currently leading the league in time of possession ahead of Harden.

Luka probes more whereas Harden either shoots the three or straight drives to the rim.

[leolozon]

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

Interesting. Luka's currently leading the league in time of possession ahead of Harden.

I don’t understand the use of time of possession. Wouldn’t that give more time to guys bringing up the ball more when it doesn’t have much to do with “real usage”? It takes 4-6 seconds bringing up the ball, multiplied by X times and you end up with many minutes of possession that no one should care about.

[leolozon]

Good observation. I think though that this is just one of the many things point guards figure out with their teammates. While at this point Luka makes some questionable decisions, I'm not all that worried that he'll be able to realize if some players need more of a head's up than others.

Also, the foul-dependency thing is one of the reasons why I don't see Luka having the same types of playoff issues that Harden does. Luka draws fouls, but I would not say his game depends on questionable fouls like Harden does.

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

Interesting. Luka's currently leading the league in time of possession ahead of Harden.

I don’t understand the use of time of possession. Wouldn’t that give more time to guys bringing up the ball more when it doesn’t have much to do with “real usage”? It takes 4-6 seconds bringing up the ball, multiplied by X times and you end up with many minutes of possession that no one should care about.

[Dr Spaceman]

I feel like it's more the system the Mavs play is not so entirely dependant on one player volume scoring. The system when it's working well, the ball moves around like it did this game and everyone gets opportunities to become the hot hand so to speak. They beat Denver with neither Luka or KP scoring more than 12 points.

Interesting. Luka's currently leading the league in time of possession ahead of Harden.

I don’t understand the use of time of possession. Wouldn’t that give more time to guys bringing up the ball more when it doesn’t have much to do with “real usage”? It takes 4-6 seconds bringing up the ball, multiplied by X times and you end up with many minutes of possession that no one should care about.

You can still compare like for like. Harden brings the ball up almost every possession he’s on the floor. And he’s been the league learner in time of possession for, like, ever. Luka is one of the more ball dominant players we’ve ever seen.