OT: Official KP Thread

[dakomish23]

If this FO were going with all in on a youth movement they wouldn’t have decided to sign the vets they did. The only purpose they’d serve is to stunt the growth of the kids by taking away their playing time.

Then when the kids don’t meet some foolish standard they set, they’ll trade them.

And fans will blame the kids

[thebuzzardman]

So, I read this as the Knicks told KP they wanted to continue to rebuild, which should be f*cking obvious they needed/need to do, to anyone with a brain in their head, and KP probably wanted them to compete. Or something like that - that he wasn't down with "the rebuild".

I mean, again, we'll never exactly know, but as much as Pills suck, they were pretty on the level about what their approach was going to be.

I think the the major f*ck up by Pills, optics wise, this year, is that they said "we'd like to be competitive and build on that"

That was a mistake. They should have flatly stated "this is a continuation of the rebuild process and we'll see what happens".

They set an expectation of competing. More people would be comfortable with the idea they were tanking it again and playing youth.

Instead, it just looks like the Knicks suck and they suck at their job.

Then again, that's very honest too.

At the time of the meeting, Durant and Kyrie were still Knicks in the eyes of Dolan. He even went on radio to proclaim that. I doubt they told him that they wanted to rebuild in the meeting.

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

[Sark]

At the time of the meeting, Durant and Kyrie were still Knicks in the eyes of Dolan. He even went on radio to proclaim that. I doubt they told him that they wanted to rebuild in the meeting.

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

At the time of the meeting, Durant and Kyrie were still Knicks in the eyes of Dolan. He even went on radio to proclaim that. I doubt they told him that they wanted to rebuild in the meeting.

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Eeeeh - kinda weird, since you were the one positing what went down in your op. :shrug:

[Dave_R]

Bottom line on Porzingis:
1. would love to have him on the knicks BUT...
2. would hate to have him on the knicks with a max contract
Ask yourself, how many good GMs do you think would be willing to give KP the max?

[Zenzibar]

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

Dam Im getting old, I just don't get this new math.

How is absorbing bad contracts better than signing 1 or 2 year contracts.
Bad contracts are bad because they're bad.
Big money, long term and overrated players. Sounds like past management moves.

[Sark]

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

Dam Im getting old, I just don't get this new math.

How is absorbing bad contracts better than signing 1 or 2 year contracts.
Bad contracts are bad because they're bad.
Big money, long term and overrated players. Sounds like past management moves.

Because they come along with first round picks.

[Zenzibar]

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

Dam Im getting old, I just don't get this new math.

How is absorbing bad contracts better than signing 1 or 2 year contracts.
Bad contracts are bad because they're bad.
Big money, long term and overrated players. Sounds like past management moves.

Because they come along with first round picks.

So explain how exactly were we in the game for trades allowing us "absorb bad contracts".
Explain to me how Scott Perry, who wasn't trading away any youth or picks, was going to match contracts. And bad contracts. I'm lost.

Or you meant sign long term bad free agent contracts just because? As horrendous as that is, that doesn't bring picks.

What I think you meant is trade a combination of our youth for a pick or 2 and a long term bad contract.
Sounds enticing.

[dakomish23]

Dam Im getting old, I just don't get this new math.

How is absorbing bad contracts better than signing 1 or 2 year contracts.
Bad contracts are bad because they're bad.
Big money, long term and overrated players. Sounds like past management moves.

Because they come along with first round picks.

So explain how exactly were we in the game for trades allowing us "absorb bad contracts".
Explain to me how Scott Perry, who wasn't trading away any youth or picks, was going to match contracts. And bad contracts. I'm lost.

Or you meant sign long term bad free agent contracts just because? As horrendous as that is, that doesn't bring picks.

What I think you meant is trade a combination of our youth for a pick or 2 and a long term bad contract.
Sounds enticing.

You don’t need to match contracts when you have cap space to absorb them.

There’s plenty of examples of teams doing that the last few years instead of making signings.

[K_ick_God]

I think you guys still overrate this. I really do. What’s more likely — getting Harkless and a pick or trading Morris for a pick? Get over it. This is not separating us from greatness or even progress.

[K_ick_God]

Bottom line on Porzingis:
1. would love to have him on the knicks BUT...
2. would hate to have him on the knicks with a max contract
Ask yourself, how many good GMs do you think would be willing to give KP the max?

Yep. I think winning covers up a lot, and rightfully so, and Dallas is winning. But I actually think having Doncic makes it a bigger mistake in a way. They’ll keep winning but he doesn’t fit well with Luka IMO.

They should have kept their powder dry. They need a Tatum/Siakam/RJ type with him more than a KP.

[dakomish23]

I think you guys still overrate this. I really do. What’s more likely — getting Harkless and a pick or trading Morris for a pick? Get over it. This is not separating us from greatness or even progress.

More likely ?

we know Harkless and a pick would happen. Why? Because it did.

Secondly, it’s not a choice b/w Morris or Harkles / pick.

It’s a choice of bench flotsam who we signed while MIA was looking for someone to absorb Harkless for a first.

We still could have signed Morris later on like we did.

So you tell me

Portis or Harkless / first

Or some combo of Gibson / Ellington / Payton or Harkless / first

[K_ick_God]

I think you guys still overrate this. I really do. What’s more likely — getting Harkless and a pick or trading Morris for a pick? Get over it. This is not separating us from greatness or even progress.

More likely ?

we know Harkless and a pick would happen. Why? Because it did.

Secondly, it’s not a choice b/w Morris or Harkles / pick.

It’s a choice of bench flotsam who we signed while MIA was looking for someone to absorb Harkless for a first.

We still could have signed Morris later on like we did.

So you tell me

Portis or Harkless / first

Or some combo of Gibson / Ellington / Payton or Harkless / first

Your first problem is that there was one such Harkless trade. Let’s start there. You keep talking like Mo Harkless is Agent Smith and can replicate himself. He’s one player and one contract and one trade. What makes you think we get the one guy? Why didn’t we draft Zion III instead of RJ?

It’s kind of weird. One player. Morris can get a pick.

Whatever you’re advocating, which tbh and not rude — isn’t really understandable — there are more ways to skin a cat. The idea that you are going to sign or trade for contracts solely to get picks (Morris for a pick, Harkless for a pick) ... can you give me one example of a team doing this?

OKC traded their best two players and got picks while shedding massive cap money. Different.

[ChaosHamster]

Bottom line on Porzingis:
1. would love to have him on the knicks BUT...
2. would hate to have him on the knicks with a max contract
Ask yourself, how many good GMs do you think would be willing to give KP the max?

I mean, good GM decided to GIVE ASSETS FOR HIM, and then max him.

Just maxing him for free? Every team would've done it.

[K_ick_God]

Bottom line on Porzingis:
1. would love to have him on the knicks BUT...
2. would hate to have him on the knicks with a max contract
Ask yourself, how many good GMs do you think would be willing to give KP the max?

I mean, good GM decided to GIVE ASSETS FOR HIM, and then max him.

Just maxing him for free? Every team would've done it.

I doubt you’re right. If a team wants a guy enough to max him out, they’ll give up assets for him. You can’t keep rookie scale guys and max someone out comfortably anyways.

What you’re saying is that all teams would want KP at a max as long as they didn’t have to give up assets. That’s not true.

[ChaosHamster]

Bottom line on Porzingis:
1. would love to have him on the knicks BUT...
2. would hate to have him on the knicks with a max contract
Ask yourself, how many good GMs do you think would be willing to give KP the max?

I mean, good GM decided to GIVE ASSETS FOR HIM, and then max him.

Just maxing him for free? Every team would've done it.

I doubt you’re right. If a team wants a guy enough to max him out, they’ll give up assets for him. You can’t keep rookie scale guys and max someone out comfortably anyways.

What you’re saying is that all teams would want KP at a max as long as they didn’t have to give up assets. That’s not true.

All teams with good GM's.

[thebuzzardman]

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

This is talking about what the trade brought back and has zero to do with the motivations in the head of KP and the FO, the things that went down that make each party feel the way they did.

Discussing what got them to that point - mutual falling out, KP demanding to be traded, unilateral decision by Pills that blindesided KP - it's all conjecture.

And I really don't care all that much about the why, other than to really know might paint a fuller picture of how the FO operates, though obviously the end result is right there for all of us to see.

[TimRobbins]

The trade looks pretty good in hindsight. KP on a 5-year max contract would have been a disaster.

[dakomish23]

I think you guys still overrate this. I really do. What’s more likely — getting Harkless and a pick or trading Morris for a pick? Get over it. This is not separating us from greatness or even progress.

More likely ?

we know Harkless and a pick would happen. Why? Because it did.

Secondly, it’s not a choice b/w Morris or Harkles / pick.

It’s a choice of bench flotsam who we signed while MIA was looking for someone to absorb Harkless for a first.

We still could have signed Morris later on like we did.

So you tell me

Portis or Harkless / first

Or some combo of Gibson / Ellington / Payton or Harkless / first

Your first problem is that there was one such Harkless trade. Let’s start there. You keep talking like Mo Harkless is Agent Smith and can replicate himself. He’s one player and one contract and one trade. What makes you think we get the one guy? Why didn’t we draft Zion III instead of RJ?

It’s kind of weird. One player. Morris can get a pick.

Whatever you’re advocating, which tbh and not rude — isn’t really understandable — there are more ways to skin a cat. The idea that you are going to sign or trade for contracts solely to get picks (Morris for a pick, Harkless for a pick) ... can you give me one example of a team doing this?

OKC traded their best two players and got picks while shedding massive cap money. Different.

The Harkless trade possibility was out there for a while. MIA was looking for a partner to complete the Butler deal.

Again, it’s bench flotsam or Harkless / pick. It is not Morris or Harkless / pick.

Knowing those two things, in your opinion, do you still agree they made the right choice?

There’s a long list of examples but two that you and I have discussed before are a) OKC taking on Kurt Thomas, which led to Ibaka b) BOS taking on Zeller which led to IT.



I don’t think you’ve ever been rude to anyone. We disagree on everything and you’ve never been rude or obnoxious with me. I welcome the discussions.

[NYKAL]

Yeah. Too right. Sorry, Buzz, but I think your take is really wrong. Still. But you are right that the Coach and the FO suck.

You have some inside info? Ultimately we don't know how or why exactly it played out

Well the biggest asset they got back from the trade was cap space from unloading Hardaway, and Lee's contracts. They could have traded KP for more picks, but they wanted the cap space, because they intended to be involved in free agency in the summer. And they were active in free agency this past summer. They added what, like 8 or 9 new players? They used up all the cap space on players, rather than use it absorb bad contracts in exchange for future. They also stretched Noah's contract at the start of the season, so that they would have even more cap space for the summer. Because of that, we are paying him until 2022, instead of being out from the contract this year.

These are all moves that a rebuilding team does NOT make. These are the moves of a team trying to reload, and be competitive right away.

The Noah situation still pisses me off. WTF happened between him and the coach and the fact that after he left he proved to be productive....at least far more productive than having him sent away from the team to just eat his contract. I'm of the mind that if you are under contract and you can play you do.