MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[Triples333]

Not sure if or how much schedule has been brought up, but December is the month of reckoning for the Lakers.

Luka embarrassing LeBron (Luka hitting that iso 3 in his face to stone the game) and the Mavs demolishing them in LA was not a great start. Have to feel that LeBron will again be an afterthought MVP candidate by January (still, so impressive at his old age).

This is the Giannis MVP b2b Campaign. He is again very clearly the MVP.

[nzahir]

Look at the Lakers roster and tell me how Lebron isnt right up there with Giannis, if not leading.

3rd leading scorer (kuzma) is averaging UNDER 12ppg

Bucks have 4 guys in double figures. 3rd scorer, Bledsoe, averages 16 ppg.

Who can lakers REALLY trust come playoff time?

Lebron, AD, Green for sure. Then Avery and Dwight should count.

Not counting on Mcgee, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP. I think Caruso is a maybe, leaning on yes, but need to see more. So thats 5-6 guys.

2-3 guys short rn. Need to flip Kuzma for 1 of those guys. Make 1 more move and or hope for nice buyout (s)

Lmao I cant believe this is a serious post. AD is averaging 26! Add AD and Kuzma points together and it's more than Bledsoe and Middleton.

I cant believe someone with a straight face is comparing Middleton and AD on the same level.

Who can you trust come playoff time on the bucks!? we clearly saw you couldn't trust anyone apart from giannis... maybe middleton. Bledsoe has been trash in the playoffs. As well as any other player on their roster. Lopez is extremely streaky.

So 3 players at best and lakers have 5-6 like you mentioned.

So we are ignoring Brook, Robin, Wes, Hill, Pat C, Donte, Korver (who is rarely playing for you guys b/c of all the depth) and even Illyasova.

If Im counting someone like Caruso and Dwight...those guys all count

[Colbinii]

Lebron james +/- of +15.2
Pascal Siakam +/- of +19

Siakam over Lebron for MVP cause of 'impact'.

Disqualified because his PER is under 20.

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lol. You really got jump through hoops to put Lebron over Giannis

Yeah 20 PER is a real threshold where I believe only 1 MVP didn't achieve

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[udfa]

Still can't believe SA discarded Bertans

edit: meant to post in the gameday thread...

[The Flying Gent]

It's been said but if Kawhi had Siakam's numbers he would probably be the undisputed favorite. It'll be interesting to watch his situation progress. Both in terms of if he keeps it up and if more people start noticing.

I wonder, can someone win both the MVP and MIP in the same year?

[Archerbro]

Still can't believe SA discarded Bertans

reminder that they traded him thinking they were getting marcus morris for 2 years. (until he negated the verbal agreement)

[Blaze4G]

So besides the number 2 option of Middleton (who is still an all star guy last yr, dont forget) vs AD.

Lets compare the rest shall we?

Bledsoe, Brook Lopez, Hill, Pat C, Donte, Wes Matthews, Robin Lopez, Korver, Sterling Brown, Illyasova, and DJ Wilson
vs
Green, Dwight, Kuzma, Mcgee, KCP, Rondo, Avery, Caruso, Cook, Daniels, and Dudley.

Bucks legit KILL the lakers there. Kuzma is the teams THIRD leading scorer at under 12 ppg. Nobody else is in double figures.

Pretty disingenuous of you to not look at the rest of the team when its a team game, getting real annoying

Mavs aren't great, but mavs won't win enough games. And KP is a damn good player. Better shooter than AD and a very good rim protector.

But mavs are constructed better and have tons of shooting.

1. So last season you said Curry plays with KD so that automatically rules him out of winning MVP.

2. Last year you said Lebron has better numbers than Giannis when you made that post so Lebron should be leading in mvp. Now Giannis has better numbers so far this season.

3. Last year you said Lebron didnt have anyone as good as middleton which makes him a stronger mvp candidate. However, now Lebron has an even better player in AD.

So ALL 3 points you used to defend lebron on why he should be leading mvp when you made the post below can now be used against him and used to defend Giannis or Luka.

Giannis
1. Lebron plays with AD so that rules him out
2. Giannis have better numbers than lebron.
3. Giannis doesnt have anyone as good as AD.

Luka

1. Lebron plays with AD so that rules him out
2. Luka have better numbers than lebron.
3. Luka doesnt have anyone as good as AD.

So basically you're a Lebron Stan that will flip flop on yout points to convince people why Lebron should be MVP.

I would love to see you play mental gymnastics to try and convince me why I'm wrong and why Lebron should be leading in the mvp race.

This convo atm is ONLY between Giannis and Lebron

Lebron has the better numbers and doesn't have anyone as good as Middleton. Also plays in the West. Another bonus for Lebron is that he may have the LA media backing him this time. Its maybe his last real shot at the mvp and he hasn't won since 2013 (should have at least gotten one in this span). Taking a top 5 worst team to a top 4 seed should do it. Team he dragged to the finals is now in contention for the number 1 overall pick

Kawhi's numbers arent as impressive and they are 7-1 w/o him. He has also missed decent time with all the b2b and will miss about 10-15 games when the season is over. Too many games when its this close

Curry plays with KD, so he can't really be the mvp. Also has missed some time.

So while Lebron has 1 great player besides him, the rest of his team is much worse.

You continue to ignore that

You have continued to ignore that AD is a NEGATIVE when lebron is off the floor. Why is that? If the team isn't as bad as you say it is or is AD not as good? Which 1

Lebrons net rating is higher than Giannis'

Luka doesn't play good defense. His team will also not have enough wins (predicting), but he is in the convo.

Kristaps has gotten underrated just b/c he started off not so great. He isn't the post guy AD is, but a better shooter. Elite rim protector. Not as good as AD on defense, but he can be an all nba defense guy.

You're going to ignore all my points of you being a hypocrite?

Why are you only using 1 stat (net rating) to defend Lebron? Lets use PER. Guess who is leading him in PER, Luka, Giannis, Harden and AD! A player on Lebron's team is leading him in PER. Where does Middleton rank? Glad you asked, 83rd. Where does KP rank? Glad you asked, 117.

Let me continue using your words against you...

So while Luka has 1 (not even great just decent in KP) player beside him, the rest of his team is much worse than the lakers. You continue to ignore that.

You have continued to ignore that KP is a NEGATIVE when on the court. Mavs offensive rating goes from 112 with KP to 119 without KP and their defensive rating goes from 104 with KP to 100 without KP. I thought you said KP was a good defender and underrated? LOL. KP has a 50% TS while AD has 58%. I thought you said KP was a good shooter? Certainly not efficient. You keep harping on AD is a negative on the court. KP is a whopping negative 8 when on the court vs off.

So lets see, Mavs has a worse team, he has a much worse #2 guy who is better sitting on the bench than on the court which is proven by the on off court. How much wins does Mavs need for Luka to win?

Every thing (apart from net rating) you have used to defend lebron I have used against Lebron to defend Luka. So using your logic you should have Luka as your front runner. Right? If net rating is going to be the last straw you grab onto then why waste time debating who is MVP. Just see who has a higher net rating and call them the mvp every year.

[freethedevil]

Some of the names up there, and no Embiid... For shame

I see it was based on the MVP ladder posted the other day, so no hard feelings Prez

I’m a fan of his but dude put up 0 points the other day..

Does that negate everything else he’s done? Averaging 23 and 12 as the best defender in the league

Giannis, AD and Gobert have all been better defenders so far.

[JimmerAllStar]

Not sure why Siakim is getting any votes. He's not top 10 in any meaningful stats. And in a lot of games, his teammates score more points than he does. Guys like Fred Van-Vleet score more points than he does.

[CoachD]

Not sure why Siakim is getting any votes. He's not top 10 in any meaningful stats. And in a lot of games, his teammates score more points than he does. Guys like Fred Van-Vleet score more points than he does.

You clearly aren't watching the games

[GeorgeMarcus]

I’m a fan of his but dude put up 0 points the other day..

Does that negate everything else he’s done? Averaging 23 and 12 as the best defender in the league

Giannis, AD and Gobert have all been better defenders so far.

Not a chance. Embiid has the #1 Defensive Rating in the league at 93.9 pts/100 poss, and that's not because of his teammates because no other Sixers player is close.

Giannis is the only one that has an argument out of the names you mentioned.

[JimmerAllStar]

Not sure why Siakim is getting any votes. He's not top 10 in any meaningful stats. And in a lot of games, his teammates score more points than he does. Guys like Fred Van-Vleet score more points than he does.

You clearly aren't watching the games

The Raps have 15 wins. Nearly half of those wins (7) came from someone scoring more points than Siakim. IOW, his teammates accounted for half of the wins so far. Not sure how that classifies him to be MVP.

[freethedevil]

Does that negate everything else he’s done? Averaging 23 and 12 as the best defender in the league

Giannis, AD and Gobert have all been better defenders so far.

Not a chance. Embiid has the #1 Defensive Rating in the league at 93.9 pts/100 poss

If raw net was stable or adjusted for lineups, I might care, but it doesn't. stable plus minus has Giannis and Gobert light years ahead and AD with comparable impact. But even if that wasn't true, embid is playing role player minuites like kawhi. He has zero case for dpoy and consequently zero case for mvp. He doesn't protect the rim nearly as much as gobert, he doesn't protect it as much as ad, and he's nowhere near Giannis in versatility.

He's not the best at anything and he's not especially versatile. He's not the best defender in the league.

[freethedevil]

Disqualified because his PER is under 20.

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lol. You really got jump through hoops to put Lebron over Giannis

Yeah 20 PER is a real threshold where I believe only 1 MVP didn't achieve

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Imagine using per for anything.

[freethedevil]

Look at the Lakers roster and tell me how Lebron isnt right up there with Giannis, if not leading.

The bucks have been vastly better than the lakers so far. Bucks are +10, the lakers aren't even +8. And that's been largely without the bucks second best attacker.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Giannis, AD and Gobert have all been better defenders so far.

Not a chance. Embiid has the #1 Defensive Rating in the league at 93.9 pts/100 poss

If raw net was stable or adjusted for lineups, I might care, but it doesn't. stable plus minus has Giannis and Gobert light years ahead and AD with comparable impact. But even if that wasn't true, embid is playing role player minuites like kawhi. He has zero case for dpoy and consequently zero case for mvp.

You'll realize the truth when DRAPM comes out. What 'stable plus minus' are you referring to?

30+ mpg isn't "role player minutes" but whatever... IIRC he led the league in mpg among C's last year, and his defensive impact was exactly the same.

[clyde21]

Still can't believe SA discarded Bertans

reminder that they traded him thinking they were getting marcus morris for 2 years. (until he negated the verbal agreement)

that was dumb anyways, I'd rather have Bertans than Morris

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Kawhi's net rating on NBA.com right now is 12.1

Giannis last season net rating 12.5

Kawhi +/- is a 8.5
Giannis in 2018-19 was a 9.1

Wow a .4 and .6 difference! that's pretty damn close with Giannis historic 2018-19 regular season. So as much as everybody wants to drool over "TS" there is other impact stats out there that shows Kawhi is having MVP impact in the games he plays.

[clyde21]

Kawhi's net rating on NBA.com right now is 12.1

Giannis last season net rating 12.5

Kawhi +/- is a 8.5
Giannis in 2018-19 was a 9.1

Wow a .4 and .6 difference! that's pretty damn close with Giannis historic 2018-19 regular season. So as much as everybody wants to drool over "TS" there is other impact stats out there that shows Kawhi is having MVP impact in the games he plays.

Giannis also played 72 games, lead the Bucks to 60 wins and the #1 overall seed, tops current Kawhi in pts, rebs, asts, and blocks, lead the league in PER, had a 64 TS% compared to Kawhi's below average 53 TS%, more than doubles Kawhi in BPM and WS/48.

but hey, they're similar in Net Rating, Kawhi MVP

give it a rest dude.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Kawhi's net rating on NBA.com right now is 12.1

Giannis last season net rating 12.5

Kawhi +/- is a 8.5
Giannis in 2018-19 was a 9.1

Wow a .4 and .6 difference! that's pretty damn close with Giannis historic 2018-19 regular season. So as much as everybody wants to drool over "TS" there is other impact stats out there that shows Kawhi is having MVP impact in the games he plays.

Giannis also played 72 games, lead the Bucks to 60 wins and the #1 overall seed, tops current Kawhi in pts, rebs, asts, and blocks, lead the league in PER, had a 64 TS% compared to Kawhi's below average 53 TS%, more than doubles Kawhi in BPM and WS/48.

but hey, they're similar in Net Rating, Kawhi MVP

give it a rest dude.

My point is that kawhi is showing MVP level impact regardless of TS. But hey, if you like TS so much than go watch 2019 kawhi 732 points 62% TS and gave your buddy Giannis the chokejob of his lifetime, how ya like that hahahha

To stay on topic of MVP impact, Kawhi's net rating on NBA.com right now also beats every LeBron season in his career besides 2009!

Kawhi +/- beats LeBron 2012-2020 every one of those MVP level years from the queen! Hahah

I'm just showing you Kawhi's impact right now baba, I told ya.