Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[nate33]

Who says we have Troy at the 3? That’s certainly not set in stone at this point.

That’s not to say I don’t think TBJ can/will be a good player, but so far he isn’t assimilating well with the starting lineup and may be better served in the 6th man role where he has more on-ball freedom.

I think we most desperately need a traditional-sized starting SF who is lower usage, preferably with elite defensive potential. A player in the mold of OG Anunoby is the ideal of what I would be looking for. This is the area I’d target in this years draft.

The other position I’m most uncomfortable with longterm is starting C. Bryant is a fine player but strikes me as more of an “82 game” player than a “16 game player”.. If we are competing for playoffs next season I’d prefer to have a different kind of center (one who’s a more active/imposing defender) as the frontline starter.

Troy's offensive skills are best suited for an offense with plenty of ball movement where he gets to handle the ball a lot and is teamed with a PG who looks for and finds open cutters. That's the exact opposite of the kind of offense that's run when Brown is on the court with IT, which is most of the time.

Of course, Troy also needs to shoot better.

Agreed. Troy looked much more comfortable at the tail end of last season when he was sharing combo-guard duties with Beal and Sato.

But that also reinforces Illmatic12's point that we still need a traditional 3&D SF with good size, defensive aptitude, and a 3-point shot. Brown looks more like a 3rd guard than a future starting SF.

He's still very young though. There's no reason why he can't play the combo guard role now and develop the 3-point shot over time.

[pcbothwel]

Ok, so here's another question. What position do we look at to improve this team? If it's not center, we have Rui at the 4, Sf? Pg? We have Troy at 3. After the original Big 3 fiasco with Otto, Beal and John and letting Otto and Oubre go for nothing. I just feel like we have to be more proactive and moving on from guys before we give them long term deals that are bad values. We aren't even close to being competitive now, so the only players I really look at not being movable are Beal and Rui.

Who says we have Troy at the 3? That’s certainly not set in stone at this point.

That’s not to say I don’t think TBJ can/will be a good player, but so far he isn’t assimilating well with the starting lineup and may be better served in the 6th man role where he has more on-ball freedom.

I think we most desperately need a traditional-sized starting SF who is lower usage, preferably with elite defensive potential. A player in the mold of OG Anunoby is the ideal of what I would be looking for. This is the area I’d target in this years draft.

The other position I’m most uncomfortable with longterm is starting C. Bryant is a fine player but strikes me as more of an “82 game” player than a “16 game player”.. If we are competing for playoffs next season I’d prefer to have a different kind of center (one who’s a more active/imposing defender) as the frontline starter.

Not worried about C in the slightest.
I think 1) wing to compete with Brown, and 2) guard to compliment Wall/Beal and eventually take over for Wall is most important.

I would dangle Wagner to a contender needing backup big help on the cheap. Dallas and Toronto could really use Mo and I see a match... But the Bucks are real interesting. Brook has been really good, but Robin has been trash and they have to use Giannis at the 5 almost 10 minutes a game...
Mo would be a great backup 5 for them and could play with Giannis at the 5 as he can shoot 3's.

[nate33]

Ok, so here's another question. What position do we look at to improve this team? If it's not center, we have Rui at the 4, Sf? Pg? We have Troy at 3. After the original Big 3 fiasco with Otto, Beal and John and letting Otto and Oubre go for nothing. I just feel like we have to be more proactive and moving on from guys before we give them long term deals that are bad values. We aren't even close to being competitive now, so the only players I really look at not being movable are Beal and Rui.

Who says we have Troy at the 3? That’s certainly not set in stone at this point.

That’s not to say I don’t think TBJ can/will be a good player, but so far he isn’t assimilating well with the starting lineup and may be better served in the 6th man role where he has more on-ball freedom.

I think we most desperately need a traditional-sized starting SF who is lower usage, preferably with elite defensive potential. A player in the mold of OG Anunoby is the ideal of what I would be looking for. This is the area I’d target in this years draft.

The other position I’m most uncomfortable with longterm is starting C. Bryant is a fine player but strikes me as more of an “82 game” player than a “16 game player”.. If we are competing for playoffs next season I’d prefer to have a different kind of center (one who’s a more active/imposing defender) as the frontline starter.

Not worried about C in the slightest.
I think 1) wing to compete with Brown, and 2) guard to compliment Wall/Beal and eventually take over for Wall is most important.

I would dangle Wagner to a contender needing backup big help on the cheap. Dallas and Toronto could really use Mo and I see a match... But the Bucks are real interesting. Brook has been really good, but Robin has been trash and they have to use Giannis at the 5 almost 10 minutes a game...
Mo would be a great backup 5 for them and could play with Giannis at the 5 as he can shoot 3's.

I don't think Wagner has the trade value to get us a SF who could one day be a starter. SF's with that potential are valuable commodities. And Wagner hasn't proven himself for a long enough period of time that a playoff team would trade for him with the intent on using him in the short term.

The day may come where we would be better off trading one of Wagner/Bryant, but I think we're better off developing them both for now and maybe looking to move one of them next year when they're more polished.

[nate33]

I'd trade Isaiah Thomas to Atlanta right now. Atlanta desperately needs a backup PG and has the cap room to absorb him.

Then I'd go sign Justin Robinson.

[mhd]

What about this deal (has to happen post December 15th)

Wiz trade IT+Mahinmi for Taj Gibson+Elfrid Payton?

Knicks get a PG who can hit open shots (and is a stealth tank commander) while we get a vet big in Gibson and a defensive PG in Payton.

[nate33]

What about this deal (has to happen post December 15th)

Wiz trade IT+Mahinmi for Taj Gibson+Elfrid Payton?

Knicks get a PG who can hit open shots (and is a stealth tank commander) while we get a vet big in Gibson and a defensive PG in Payton.

I can't fathom a reason for NY to consider it. Payton is better than IT and Gibson is better than Mahinmi. Remember, Payton started early in the season before he got hurt. He's due back in 2 weeks.

I suppose NY is one of the few teams with a bad enough front office to be fooled by IT's counting stats. I'd definitely pull the trigger on the deal if NY would go for it. Gibson would be a great influence on our young bigs.

The other advantage is that both Gibson and Payton have team options next year (well, Payton is non-guaranteed, which is practically the same thing). That gives us a little more trade flexibility. We could, for example, opt to keep them next year if we needed their salaries as ballast to make an offseason trade.

[pcbothwel]

What about this deal (has to happen post December 15th)

Wiz trade IT+Mahinmi for Taj Gibson+Elfrid Payton?

Knicks get a PG who can hit open shots (and is a stealth tank commander) while we get a vet big in Gibson and a defensive PG in Payton.

I can't fathom a reason for NY to consider it. Payton is better than IT and Gibson is better than Mahinmi. Remember, Payton started early in the season before he got hurt. He's due back in 2 weeks.

I suppose NY is one of the few teams with a bad enough front office to be fooled by IT's counting stats. I'd definitely pull the trigger on the deal if NY would go for it. Gibson would be a great influence on our young bigs.

The other advantage is that both Gibson and Payton have team options next year (well, Payton is non-guaranteed, which is practically the same thing). That gives us a little more trade flexibility. We could, for example, opt to keep them next year if we needed their salaries as ballast to make an offseason trade.

Ehhh... Not even that great for us either. Both have 1M guaranteed, so thats 2M in cap space we give up next year even if we decline the option.

[nate33]

What about this deal (has to happen post December 15th)

Wiz trade IT+Mahinmi for Taj Gibson+Elfrid Payton?

Knicks get a PG who can hit open shots (and is a stealth tank commander) while we get a vet big in Gibson and a defensive PG in Payton.

I can't fathom a reason for NY to consider it. Payton is better than IT and Gibson is better than Mahinmi. Remember, Payton started early in the season before he got hurt. He's due back in 2 weeks.

I suppose NY is one of the few teams with a bad enough front office to be fooled by IT's counting stats. I'd definitely pull the trigger on the deal if NY would go for it. Gibson would be a great influence on our young bigs.

The other advantage is that both Gibson and Payton have team options next year (well, Payton is non-guaranteed, which is practically the same thing). That gives us a little more trade flexibility. We could, for example, opt to keep them next year if we needed their salaries as ballast to make an offseason trade.

Ehhh... Not even that great for us either. Both have 1M guaranteed, so thats 2M in cap space we give up next year even if we decline the option.

Actually both guys aren't guaranteed unless they haven't been cut by June 28, 2020. So basically, the 2nd year is not guaranteed. And even if that $1M was guaranteed, it doesn't matter. The Wizards will be well under the luxtax with no capability of getting to the tax even if they resign Bertans and a full MLE free agent.

I'd really like this deal because I really like Taj Gibson. He'd be a great veteran mentor and help teach our young bigs toughness and defensive aptitude. I'd love for Rui to be exactly like Gibson on D (but with Rui's superior offensive gifts).

[Illmatic12]

Who says we have Troy at the 3? That’s certainly not set in stone at this point.

That’s not to say I don’t think TBJ can/will be a good player, but so far he isn’t assimilating well with the starting lineup and may be better served in the 6th man role where he has more on-ball freedom.

I think we most desperately need a traditional-sized starting SF who is lower usage, preferably with elite defensive potential. A player in the mold of OG Anunoby is the ideal of what I would be looking for. This is the area I’d target in this years draft.

The other position I’m most uncomfortable with longterm is starting C. Bryant is a fine player but strikes me as more of an “82 game” player than a “16 game player”.. If we are competing for playoffs next season I’d prefer to have a different kind of center (one who’s a more active/imposing defender) as the frontline starter.

Troy's offensive skills are best suited for an offense with plenty of ball movement where he gets to handle the ball a lot and is teamed with a PG who looks for and finds open cutters. That's the exact opposite of the kind of offense that's run when Brown is on the court with IT, which is most of the time.

Of course, Troy also needs to shoot better.

I believe it’s a red herring to pin Brown’s struggles on IT.

It’s true that Thomas hasn’t been a perfect fit but the reality is that the highest usage player in our starting lineup is Beal, and it’s Beal that’s TBJ is struggling to fit with - since his primary role in the starting lineup to space the floor for Brad to operate (NOT for IT).

Furthermore if Brown is struggling with his usage playing next to IT/Beal then he most certainly would struggle playing next to Wall/Beal when John returns.

In essence this is what this year is about - letting our young guys play and seeing what we have in them. And what Brown is showing us is that his longterm role in DC is likely going to be as our 6th man , not in the starting lineup. Which is fine , he can still be a starting caliber player in this league even if we brought him off the bench (ala Igoudala) - but what Tommy Sheppard is seeing is that we probably need to draft/trade for another young SF who is a better fit with the starters.

[pcbothwel]

I can't fathom a reason for NY to consider it. Payton is better than IT and Gibson is better than Mahinmi. Remember, Payton started early in the season before he got hurt. He's due back in 2 weeks.

I suppose NY is one of the few teams with a bad enough front office to be fooled by IT's counting stats. I'd definitely pull the trigger on the deal if NY would go for it. Gibson would be a great influence on our young bigs.

The other advantage is that both Gibson and Payton have team options next year (well, Payton is non-guaranteed, which is practically the same thing). That gives us a little more trade flexibility. We could, for example, opt to keep them next year if we needed their salaries as ballast to make an offseason trade.

Ehhh... Not even that great for us either. Both have 1M guaranteed, so thats 2M in cap space we give up next year even if we decline the option.

Actually both guys aren't guaranteed unless they haven't been cut by June 28, 2020. So basically, the 2nd year is not guaranteed. And even if that $1M was guaranteed, it doesn't matter. The Wizards will be well under the luxtax with no capability of getting to the tax even if they resign Bertans and a full MLE free agent.

I'd really like this deal because I really like Taj Gibson. He'd be a great veteran mentor and help teach our young bigs toughness and defensive aptitude. I'd love for Rui to be exactly like Gibson on D (but with Rui's superior offensive gifts).

Nate... Im not saying I wouldnt do it, but I dont see why NY does it... AND its not "that great for us either".

But agreed about the cap situation...I've been beating that drum for a while now and its why I would be open to taking on expirings to acquire bird rights for a BYOD deal for a player with 2 year left on their deal.
We have about 40M to play with this summer, with 10M going to the MLE, 5M to rookie, and another 4M for the Bi-Annual.
That leaves us with about 20M+ to resign Bertans and.....

The only team that looks to be on the cusp between having cap space or not appears to be Charlotte.

Question is... what would the Hornets need to add to a Batum for Ian/Miles swap to make it worth our while?

[DCZards]

I believe it’s a red herring to pin Brown’s struggles on IT.

It’s true that Thomas hasn’t been a perfect fit but the reality is that the highest usage player in our starting lineup is Beal, and it’s Beal that’s TBJ is struggling to fit with - since his primary role in the starting lineup to space the floor for Brad to operate (NOT for IT).

Furthermore if Brown is struggling with his usage playing next to IT/Beal then he most certainly would struggle playing next to Wall/Beal when John returns.

In essence this is what this year is about - letting our young guys play and seeing what we have in them. And what Brown is showing us is that his longterm role in DC is likely going to be as our 6th man , not in the starting lineup. Which is fine , he can still be a starting caliber player in this league even if we brought him off the bench (ala Igoudala) - but what Tommy Sheppard is seeing is that we probably need to draft/trade for another young SF who is a better fit with the starters.

I don't think you worry about trading for a better fit with the starters until your true starting team is intact, which may include IT this year but certainly doesn't include him in the future. Yes, if a great opportunity comes along to trade for a young, talented SF or to draft one, then you do it. But I'd be careful about making personnel decisions to fit with the current starting lineup.

I don't disagree that Troy might be best-suited to be a 6th man.

While it's true that IT and Wall are both ball dominant PGs, there's a big difference between the two. IT is a shoot-first PG who has never averaged more than 6 assists in any season. Wall has been among the top assist guys in the league throughout his career and is one of the best in the game at creating open shots for teammates, something that IT is mediocre at at best.

I'd consider starting Brown at PG over IT...and starting Bonga at SF for his defense. I think with that change you'd lose very little offensively and improve significantly defensively. It will also allow Troy to have the ball in his hands more often, which, imo, plays to his strengths.

Though still a very small sample size, Bonga is showing that he has a pretty good stroke from the 3 pt line.

[Illmatic12]

I believe it’s a red herring to pin Brown’s struggles on IT.

It’s true that Thomas hasn’t been a perfect fit but the reality is that the highest usage player in our starting lineup is Beal, and it’s Beal that’s TBJ is struggling to fit with - since his primary role in the starting lineup to space the floor for Brad to operate (NOT for IT).

Furthermore if Brown is struggling with his usage playing next to IT/Beal then he most certainly would struggle playing next to Wall/Beal when John returns.

In essence this is what this year is about - letting our young guys play and seeing what we have in them. And what Brown is showing us is that his longterm role in DC is likely going to be as our 6th man , not in the starting lineup. Which is fine , he can still be a starting caliber player in this league even if we brought him off the bench (ala Igoudala) - but what Tommy Sheppard is seeing is that we probably need to draft/trade for another young SF who is a better fit with the starters.

I don't think you worry about trading for a better fit with the starters until your true starting team is intact, which may include IT this year but certainly doesn't include him in the future. Yes, if a great opportunity comes along to trade for a young, talented SF or to draft one, then you do it. But I'd be careful about making personnel decisions to fit with the current starting lineup.

I don't disagree that Troy might be best-suited to be a 6th man.

While it's true that IT and Wall are both ball dominant PGs, there's a big difference between the two. IT is a shoot-first PG who has never averaged more than 6 assists in any season. Wall has been among the top assist guys in the league throughout his career and is one of the best in the game at creating open shots for teammates, something that IT is mediocre at at best.

I'd consider starting Brown at PG over IT...and starting Bonga at SF for his defense. I think with that change you'd lose very little offensively and improve significantly defensively. It will also allow Troy to have the ball in his hands more often, which, imo, plays to his strengths.

Though still a very small sample size, Bonga is showing that he has a pretty good stroke from the 3 pt line.

I think we need to make personnel decisions based on Bradley Beal , who is going to be our most important player for the forseeable future .

Even if we don't have our longterm roster solidified we should start exploring the archetypes of the players who fit with Brad. And it's clear to me that Brown Jr isn't the starting SF who would best fit. Given how much energy he is asked to expend offensively, I prefer to pair Beal with a gritty defensive-minded SF - ie someone who cares more about playing defense than offense.. that is not TBJ (and it wasn't Otto , nor Oubre either.. Ariza was the last SF we had who fit perfectly). Not saying Troy is a bad defender but he is not a 'specialist' ala a Marcus Smart type guy whose sole desire is to go out and lock down the opposing teams best player.. we're going to need that defensive leader next to Beal/Wall if we aspire to be a competitive playoff team.

Brown has made it clear that he desires more usage and that his overall game struggles when he isn't touching the ball. Ok thanks for letting us know. When someone tells you who they are, you should believe them right? This interview is essentially TBJ telling us "I am not the longterm starter and my development would be better suited coming off the bench" (see @ 1min mark)

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I don't see the point of starting him at point guard, that still won't change anything. To me, there's no point pigeonholing TBJ into the starting lineup if that's not going to be his longterm role. It will just set him back next year when Wall returns bc his role will completely change again. You don't want to hinder a young player's development by having expectations wildly change from year to year - if TBJ is going to be our longterm 6th man then imo we should start grooming him for that role now. It certainly doesn't mean he can't still close games if playing well - starting doesn't matter, what matters is who's on the floor in the deciding moments.


Now from what I've seen Isaac Bonga fits the "archetype" of starting SF we want, bc he doesn't worry about his scoring and provides more energy on D than anyone on the roster. So one could argue, we might as well slot Bonga in the starting lineup now and then next season he'd be relieved by Isaac Okoro or whichever SF we draft/trade for who also fits said archetype.

[payitforward]

I'm not one bit worried about Troy Brown's play. He is already quite productive -- & he only turned 20 years old 4 months ago. Yes, he needs to shoot better. & since his 2 pt. % & FT% are both up, he's on his way to that.

But don't let that blind you to the fact that he's getting 65% more rebounds than an average NBA wing. & almost twice as many steals. & turning it over at a less than average pace. Troy Brown is playing well.

Still, you are right that starting isn't the issue right now: all I want is for him to play 2000+ minutes this year. However he gets them. Instead, unfortunately, he is on a pace for something more like 1650 minutes, & that is Brooks's fault. He's got Beal on a 3000+ minute pace. He's playing IT way way too much. & Miles didn't need to be on the court at all (with Miles injured, perhaps Brown's minutes will go up).

What this so-called 6th man role is, however, I have no idea. Can you give an example of a player who had that "role" his whole career?

[gambitx777]

I wonder if it would be worth a call to the grizz about Josh jackson.i wonder if he has his **** sorted out ?what would it cost. Could we do some kind of thing there

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Illmatic12]

Coming in after the Clippers game.. Brooks started Bonga over Troy in the second half. His comments on Bonga in postgame:

"He competes on defense and doesn't like to get scored on, that's how he's wired. He's not out there looking to score points"

^DING DING DING .. Brooks reiterated precisely what I said above, Bonga is a defensive-minded player which is what we need out there next to Brad . Troy isn't a bad defender per se, but he is an offense-first player and conserves his energy for that end. IB goes all out 100% on defense and that sets the tone for the team.

Most likely we will look to draft a defensive-minded SF to rotate with Bonga, and move Brown to backup G

[pcbothwel]

I wonder if it would be worth a call to the grizz about Josh jackson.i wonder if he has his **** sorted out ?what would it cost. Could we do some kind of thing there

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

Dear God.... Jackson hasnt played a minute of NBA basketball for one of the worst teams in the league... as he shouldnt.
He is NOT an NBA player. He doesnt do a SINGLE THING at even a average level.

Size: narrow shoulders, small frame, small hands, short arms
Athleticism: Decent open court leaper, but cant handle contact, weak, poor lateral quickness, poor 2nd jump
Shooting: 41/29/65 shooting line. Atrocious
Playmaking: Averages more turnovers than assist
Rebounding: ehhh... under 10% RBD% makes him about average for a 2/3
Defense: Not a complete turnstile, but barely a luke warm body...

Given his draft position, Minutes, and production... he is almost unparalleled... Think Rookie Adam Morrison & Mudiay...and our own Yi Jianlian

Hard Pass

[DCZards]

Coming in after the Clippers game.. Brooks started Bonga over Troy in the second half. His comments on Bonga in postgame:

"He competes on defense and doesn't like to get scored on, that's how he's wired. He's not out there looking to score points"

^DING DING DING .. Brooks reiterated precisely what I said above, Bonga is a defensive-minded player which is what we need out there next to Brad . Troy isn't a bad defender per se, but he is an offense-first player and conserves his energy for that end. IB goes all out 100% on defense and that sets the tone for the team.

Most likely we will look to draft a defensive-minded SF to rotate with Bonga, and move Brown to backup G

Hey we agree. I was the one who first suggested starting Bonga for his defense (see above).

It's just that I think Brown should get more of the minutes that are currently going to IT.

[Ruzious]

Who says we have Troy at the 3? That’s certainly not set in stone at this point.

That’s not to say I don’t think TBJ can/will be a good player, but so far he isn’t assimilating well with the starting lineup and may be better served in the 6th man role where he has more on-ball freedom.

I think we most desperately need a traditional-sized starting SF who is lower usage, preferably with elite defensive potential. A player in the mold of OG Anunoby is the ideal of what I would be looking for. This is the area I’d target in this years draft.

The other position I’m most uncomfortable with longterm is starting C. Bryant is a fine player but strikes me as more of an “82 game” player than a “16 game player”.. If we are competing for playoffs next season I’d prefer to have a different kind of center (one who’s a more active/imposing defender) as the frontline starter.

Troy's offensive skills are best suited for an offense with plenty of ball movement where he gets to handle the ball a lot and is teamed with a PG who looks for and finds open cutters. That's the exact opposite of the kind of offense that's run when Brown is on the court with IT, which is most of the time.

Of course, Troy also needs to shoot better.

Scoring efficiently is his only real problem - but it's a considerable one. He's got to make 3's a reasonable rate - just like every other 3 in the NBA - and he's got to get to the line more - which I expect will happen in time. Once those 2 things happen, I think he can be a legit starting 3 - though probably not upper echelon. I agree that 6th man would probably be a better fit for him.

[nate33]

The only team that looks to be on the cusp between having cap space or not appears to be Charlotte.

Question is... what would the Hornets need to add to a Batum for Ian/Miles swap to make it worth our while?

The big hurdle is that if you replace Mahinmi's and Miles' expiring contracts with Batum's $27M 2020 contract, that boosts our cap number from $99M to $126M. Add in maybe $4M for our rookie pick and we're at $130M for 11 players. 2 vet minimum guys and we're at $132M. The luxtax threshold for 2020 is projected at $141, and that may drop due to the China fiasco. That's not enough room to retain Bertans.

I'd rather look to make the same type of deal for a slightly smaller 2020 contract - someone like Tim Hardaway Jr., Gorgui Dieng, or James Johnson. Unfortunately, neither Dallas nor Miami have 1st round picks to give up.

Hmmm. A deal with Minnesota and Dieng could be mutually beneficial. I'm thinking Mahinmi for Dieng plus a 2020 1st. Dieng's 2020 contract is $17.3M. Unloading him would get Minnesota down to a cap number of $88.7M, for $28M in cap room. It would leave us with a payroll of $121M, just enough luxtax room to resign Bertans and the 2020 pick we get from Minnesota.

The question is, does Minnesota have a burning need to get way under the cap in 2020? What free agent would they covet? Draymond Green? Is that realistic?

[Illmatic12]

Coming in after the Clippers game.. Brooks started Bonga over Troy in the second half. His comments on Bonga in postgame:

"He competes on defense and doesn't like to get scored on, that's how he's wired. He's not out there looking to score points"

^DING DING DING .. Brooks reiterated precisely what I said above, Bonga is a defensive-minded player which is what we need out there next to Brad . Troy isn't a bad defender per se, but he is an offense-first player and conserves his energy for that end. IB goes all out 100% on defense and that sets the tone for the team.

Most likely we will look to draft a defensive-minded SF to rotate with Bonga, and move Brown to backup G

Hey we agree. I was the one who first suggested starting Bonga for his defense (see above).

It's just that I think Brown should get more of the minutes that are currently going to IT.

Interesting thought , but not sure I want to see Brown at PG right now. IMO it would reinforce his bad habits.

If I was the coach, I’d tell him he simply has to play better and be more locked in on both ends, and he will earn minutes at the 2/3. Moving his position sets a precedent of rewarding his poor play and doesn’t encourage him to improve his off-ball skills.