MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[Archx]

Everyone can have a bad night but in case of Harden when he sits in front of Rachel Nichols to support his MVP media campaign he will brag about the number of games he had historic 50 and 60 points and in those he will include last nights terrible performance and loss and the 60p he had in a 1st quarter blowout against a tank on the second of a b2b.

Edit:
That's from the official NBA youtube channel.

Watch on YouTube

How can NBA brag with this embarrassing performance? What are they trying to promote here? No wonder viewership is on decline. Pathetic. And to think he is still in MVP conversation when his team is slipping, it's even more ridiculous.

[yannisk]

Rockets want to have the game to be awarded to them in regular time. I wonder if Harden wants secretly the result to stand so that he can keep the points he scored in extra time(s)

[Lamak]

I'm starting to like Doncic's chance at some votes, really depend on their record. Giannis over LBJ because of having Anthony Davis as well

[Nightfall]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256347/Giannis-Antetokounmpo-Declared-Early-MVP-Frontrunner-In-Straw-Poll

A straw poll of 101 media members was conducted to gauge the early MVP race has Giannis Antetokounmpo as the frontrunner.

Antetokounmpo received 48 first-place votes and was the only player to appear on all 101 ballots.

LeBron James, Luka Doncic and James Harden trail Antetokounmpo in the straw poll. James received 29 first-place votes, 651 points, named on 100 ballots. Doncic received 14 first-place votes, 569 points and is on 99 ballots. Harden received nine first-place votes and 53 Free Throws, 444 points and is on 97 ballots.

Antetokounmpo won the MVP last season with Harden finishing second.

Pascal Siakam ended up coming in fifth in the straw poll with 52 points ahead of Kawhi Leonard (49) and Anthony Davis (38).

I might have added some comments in blue...

[CalL]

Actually think that the poll result isn´t bad.
Giannis
small gap
Luka
bigger gap
LeBron
Harden

Giannis has the edge over Luka because of his defense. He is not as good on offense but being a DPOY candidat makes him the superior player.
Doncic is the best offensive player in the league and carries the worst supporting cast among the top 4.
LeBron is showing that last season was an outlier. Right now I have him below Giannis and Luka but I wouldn´t be suprised if he finds another gear post allstar. Definitely think that he elevates his game in the playoffs but that´s not relevant for the MVP discussion.
Harden is having an all time great scoring season but I canot put him over LeBron or Luka. Luka leads the league leading offense and is a slightly better defender. LeBron might not be as good on offense but is playing the best defense he has played since he left Miami.

If I had to rank them in relation to each other it would be: (offense/defense 1-10)
Giannis (8/9)
Doncic (10/5)
LeBron (7/7)
Harden (9/4)

I agree about Luka and Giannis. The question is: What can Luka do to become a better player than Giannis?
Luka will never be as good defensively as Giannis (in my opinion), so how can Luka "overtake" Giannis, if Giannis doesn't decline?
I think if Luka can improve his percentages (free throws, better shot selection from 3, getting to the rim more easily/often (thanks to better athleticism)) and if the Mavs become a better team over the years (Porzingis getting back to his best + maybe landing another all-star level player (in 2021?)), then Luka might have the edge, especially because his game can have more of a lasting impression than that of Giannis (despite Giannis being a far better athlete) thanks to his ballhandling and his stepback 3s/buzzerbeaters. If the Mavs will be able to win as many games as the Bucks in a couple of years, then Luka could very well be able to win an MVP trophy, but i don't see any way of it happening this season (assuming that Giannis/the Bucks don't decline or the Mavs go on a crazy winning streak).

[HBK_Kliq_33]

MVP is luka and the only reason anybody would say otherwise is because they don't want to give it to a 20 year old. Giannis supporting cast has already proven they are elite last year. Luka is doing it with porzingis and a bunch of random guys. Luka also beats Giannis in TS, win shares, BPM, VORP.

[yannisk]

It seems MVP is defined by play (this is partly reflected in stats), team success and narrative

Giannis, Doncic and Harden have the stats (Lebron has great stats too but a step bellow the other ones)
Giannis and Lebron have the team success, but also Doncic is carrying his team above expectations
Harden has the narrative of amazing scoring. This will be especially strong if he averages 40 (i don't believe i am contemplating that)
Lebron and Doncic have the narrative of their amazing play for their age. Some voters would want to give the last MVP to Lebron for his continuous excellence while others will want to crown the new king.

I think all of them are worthy candidates. At the moment I have them Giannis, Doncic, Lebron, Harden

Imagine regular season ends, Lakers are top seed guided by Lebron, Bucks is first in the east and Giannis has the greatest PER of all time, Dallas is 4th and Doncic has a 30ppg triple double, Harden has 40ppg.

[First Take]

Give it to LeBron for his years of MVP level of play and not giving it to him.

[Magic Giannison]

Give it to LeBron for his years of MVP level of play and not giving it to him.

Nah , this aint some charity event,give to people that deserve it

[GusT15]

Give it to LeBron for his years of MVP level of play and not giving it to him.

I was making the same argument for giving a DPOY to the "old man" version of Duncan for many years.

He had never won one.

He retired without one...

[Dupp]

Compared to the rest of the league he is a 10. Mind you that a guy like Lillard would be a 6 on offense in this comparisation.
But I have Luka in front of him. If I look at their numbers, supporting cast and team offense. The only thing in Hardens favor is scoring volume. Harden is putting up incredible scoring numbers but overall Luka-ball has the Mavs on pace for the best offense of all time.

Not buying lukas a better player offensivley than harden just yet. But we'll see.

But also hardens cast offensively is complete trash.

How come then that Dallas was considered not to be a playoff team (8th seed at best) and Houston was considered a top seed (a real contender at best) before the season? Dallas destroyed Houston head to head, Luka ate Hardens lunch and Dallas has the better record. Did Hardens supporting cast all of the sudden become trash?

I think the more realistic explanation is that Luka just makes the whole team better while Harden only makes himself better.

I think it’s pretty obvious people didn’t think luka would be close to this good already. People already knew harden was good and probably thought Westbrick could work.

[KGtabake]

Give it to LeBron for his years of MVP level of play and not giving it to him.

This is the way that the Academy of Motion Pictures and Arts works.
I fully expect Al Pacino to receive an Oscar for best supporting actor in the Irishman. For all the years and the movies he deserved it and they didn't give it to him(leave Scent of a Woman aside please)

[SeniorWalker]

Give it to LeBron for his years of MVP level of play and not giving it to him.

This is the way that the Academy of Motion Pictures and Arts works.
I fully expect Al Pacino to receive an Oscar for best supporting actor in the Irishman. For all the years and the movies he deserved it and they didn't give it to him(leave Scent of a Woman aside please)

At the end of the season if the race is close between LeBron and the other top contenders, LeBron will get it. The media is trying their hardest to give it to him this year already. All he has to do is be somewhat in the ball park statistically and the lakers finish #1 in the west. I think his means Giannis and the other players may need to slip a little bit statistically and in the standings which may or may not happen.

But if the race remains like now with Giannis team having the best record and he the best stats, LeBron will not win it. Giannis will just have a better case since he doesnt play with another top 5 player and is clearly the better player statistically at this point in his career.

[Vsauce12]

Seems like everyone knows who the real MVP is and all that lebron talk is just for ratings





https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256347/Giannis-Antetokounmpo-Declared-Early-MVP-Frontrunner-In-Straw-Poll

Giannis can 100% keep up the pace is playing at and baring some unforeseen injuries, the cans will most likely win 60+ games. Giannis going b2b, you love to see it

[ken6199]

Rockets want to have the game to be awarded to them in regular time. I wonder if Harden wants secretly the result to stand so that he can keep the points he scored in extra time(s)

Touche.

I think after Westbrook's MVP, most of the voters no longer have the stats G spot anymore. Triple doubles 40 ppg or whatever they all mean less, and Westbrook's MVP (compared to how bad he has been since) pretty much sealed the deal here.

However, winning always triumphs all. Giannis is playing at an insane level individually, and he is playing in the worst division in the worse conference. The only hope for Lebron/Doncic/Harden is to at least stack up wins in their own conference to at least stand a chance, then try to use personal stats to see if they can beat Giannis. Doncic has the beautiful stat sheet, Harden has otherworldly scoring, Lebron not so much but he has that kick from the LA media. However, all those are just helpers, and the key factor is - team record.

For the team record, LA and Houston are going to be held to a very high standard. If they fail to reach 1 or 2 seed, I say it's game over for them. LeBron has AD, their team is up to a great start, if they slip, it will be "they cannot finish strong" or "their great start is helped by the cupcake schedule". Houston is set out to be a contender after failing the past 3-4 years and now GS is gone, so their expectation level is pretty high as well. Doncic has a bit more wiggle room on this because nobody expect the Mavs to make much noise - now they are pushing for a top 4.

So overall, everyone knows you gotta dilute that "best player on the best team" narrative that Giannis has nailed on so far to have a chance against him. As of now, and with the LA/Houston/Dallas having to kill each other more frequently, I'd put half of my savings on Giannis winning it again this year.

[Perseus1966]

Giannis worst game was the one he had 24/19/15

[Doctor MJ]

Actually think that the poll result isn´t bad.
Giannis
small gap
Luka
bigger gap
LeBron
Harden

Giannis has the edge over Luka because of his defense. He is not as good on offense but being a DPOY candidat makes him the superior player.
Doncic is the best offensive player in the league and carries the worst supporting cast among the top 4.
LeBron is showing that last season was an outlier. Right now I have him below Giannis and Luka but I wouldn´t be suprised if he finds another gear post allstar. Definitely think that he elevates his game in the playoffs but that´s not relevant for the MVP discussion.
Harden is having an all time great scoring season but I canot put him over LeBron or Luka. Luka leads the league leading offense and is a slightly better defender. LeBron might not be as good on offense but is playing the best defense he has played since he left Miami.

If I had to rank them in relation to each other it would be: (offense/defense 1-10)
Giannis (8/9)
Doncic (10/5)
LeBron (7/7)
Harden (9/4)

I agree about Luka and Giannis. The question is: What can Luka do to become a better player than Giannis?
Luka will never be as good defensively as Giannis (in my opinion), so how can Luka "overtake" Giannis, if Giannis doesn't decline?
I think if Luka can improve his percentages (free throws, better shot selection from 3, getting to the rim more easily/often (thanks to better athleticism)) and if the Mavs become a better team over the years (Porzingis getting back to his best + maybe landing another all-star level player (in 2021?)), then Luka might have the edge, especially because his game can have more of a lasting impression than that of Giannis (despite Giannis being a far better athlete) thanks to his ballhandling and his stepback 3s/buzzerbeaters. If the Mavs will be able to win as many games as the Bucks in a couple of years, then Luka could very well be able to win an MVP trophy, but i don't see any way of it happening this season (assuming that Giannis/the Bucks don't decline or the Mavs go on a crazy winning streak).

I think that offense/defense focus tends to confuse people. Team-wise, defense is 50% of the game. Individual impact-wise, the modern game's "base everything around one guys doing everything" allows for drastically greater offensive impact than defense.

We could end up with a situation where Giannis is in the 99.9% percentile of NBA offensive players, but Doncic has 50% more offensive impact, and that would likely render defense moot to the discussion.

If that sounds like a Luka pipe dream, let me be clear that this is a longer running issue than any of these guys. Back when Nash wa a hot button topic people really struggled with this.

[leolozon]

Giannis worst game was the one he had 24/19/15

Why are you lying?

14/10/7 on 5/15 shooting against Cleveland.

[Vsauce12]

Giannis worst game was the one he had 24/19/15

Why are you lying?

14/10/7 on 5/15 shooting against Cleveland.

And he’s still the incumbent MVP, would you look at that

[antonac]

right now I have

1. Antetokounmpo
2. Doncic
3. don't care because it's between those two.

I do feel though that very little needs to change to swap those two around, Giannis is going to keep doing what he's doing, I don't see anyone able to stop him so it really depends on the bucks as a whole, their form is too good right now to consider anyone else for MVP but I don't expect them to keep going at this rate all year.

I think there's still an element of disbelief that Doncic continues like this for another 60 games, which in all honesty I share, but if Doncic is sitting on 30/9/9 by the end of the year I think he gets it.