Game 21: Los Angeles Lakers (17-3) @ Denver Nuggets (13-4) - 9:00 PM ET

[stan francisco]

Kuzma sucks

Patience, like that old poster used to say.

[Mamba Mentality]

Denver didn’t score for the final 2:23 of the fourth. Much of that is credit to AD's lockdown defense. I don't think there is any question that he's the clearcut frontrunner for DPOY.

[Landsberger]

There was a sequence late in the 4th where Alex C. Switched off of his man to cover another guy, the Denver swung the ball to the opposite corner and he hustled and contested the 3pt shot.... Damn that dude puts in work on defense.

I don’t understand. I thought he could only defend backups!

Put some respect on Caruso’s name. The dude is an elite guard defender.

This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said lol

I also noticed you and a few others have conveniently dropped the elite shooter title that was used repeatedly.

The term "elite" is silly in the first place. Using it so widely diminishes what it means. There is nothing "elite" about Caruso's game in the true sense of the term.

He's got a feel for team defense and is good on larger guards in open space. He's also been not so good on quicker players in space. Offensively he's barely acceptable. The comments about teams dropping off of Rondo not applied to Caruso shows implicit bias IMHO.

Not a dig at the guy but the puff he gets vs the venom Rondo gets is really silly. Both play a meaningful role for us.

[Landsberger]

How many points did the lakers score in the 2nd half

I'm more focused on that we scored more in the game than Denver..... which we did... 9 more.

[Beethoven]

Kuzma sucks

Patience, like that old poster used to say.

o rly?
kcp is better than Kuzma

[Pythagoras]

There was a sequence late in the 4th where Alex C. Switched off of his man to cover another guy, the Denver swung the ball to the opposite corner and he hustled and contested the 3pt shot.... Damn that dude puts in work on defense.

I don’t understand. I thought he could only defend backups!

Put some respect on Caruso’s name. The dude is an elite guard defender.

This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said lol

I also noticed you and a few others have conveniently dropped the elite shooter title that was used repeatedly.

You literally said he only looked good last year because he was defending backups, and you carried that narrative into this year. That was EXACTLY your argument. Why not simply take the L and admit his defense is better than you thought?

And you’ve not once seen me call him an elite shooter. Not once.

[Sedale Threatt]

I agree with this. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore. His biggest strengths aren't be utilized. If he's not scoring or shooting the ball, i'm not sure he has much use. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore and it doesn't seem like the coaching staff is even interested in getting him going offensively. I'm still a bit reluctant to say trade him since I don't think we'd get back much in return. Trading Kuz for Fred VavVleet is a pipe dream.

Here is the thing: How do you "get someone going" who can't really do much outside of spot up and cut off the ball?

Not that there's absolutely nothing to this, but I always remember Nick Van Exel jabbing Eddie Jones after he lit up Seattle in a couple of playoff games back in the day. Paraphrasing, he's always bugging me to get him involved, and have I tell him, get yourself involved. Look what happens when you do.

Again, I'm not going to say there's nothing we can do for him. Far, far better players than him have had their roles / games diminished by serving as complementary options in LeBron-centric offenses. (While it doesn't seem to be having much impact, look at how much Brandon Ingram has blossomed with a more expanded role.) And to be fair, he had been shooting pretty great from 3 until the last few games.

But beyond that, Kuzma limits his own options by having such a rudimentary offensive game. This is his third year now, and what noticeable improvements has he made? He has no utility in the pick and roll, either as a ballhandler or screener. He doesn't draw fouls. He can't post up. He can't take anybody off the dribble. He doesn't get easy buckets with putbacks or steals. And so on.

The one exceptional part of his game is his beautiful touch around the rim on floaters and such. But that's only so useful given that he doesn't have the handle or quickness to put himself in position to consistently capitalize on that. All of this would be mitigated to some degree if he contributed in other ways. But as you note, he's pretty much useless when he's not scoring / shooting.

So if we're looking for reasons why he's languishing, we need to start with him first.

[Spanish_Laker]

Where is Milesfides?

[Ball so hard]

I don’t understand. I thought he could only defend backups!

Put some respect on Caruso’s name. The dude is an elite guard defender.

This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said lol

I also noticed you and a few others have conveniently dropped the elite shooter title that was used repeatedly.

You literally said he only looked good last year because he was defending backups, and you carried that narrative into this year. That was EXACTLY your argument. Why not simply take the L and admit his defense is better than you thought?

And you’ve not once seen me call him an elite shooter. Not once.

Quoting myself on two separate instances:

It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.

Do you have any proof to support your claim? I have proof to support mine.

I said he primarily competed against scrubs... this might've been a slight exaggeration on my part. He did in fact play a majority of his minutes against non starters.

A majority (if you prefer this over the use of primarily) of his minutes were in fact against non-starters. This is not my opinion, this is what the data showed.

The pro Caruso argument almost always included "look at his shooting" from last year. I'm nearly certain I saw more than one poster calling him an elite shooter. If you ignore his relatively sample size. of course he was elite. Arguments in favor of Caruso have been consistent... don't try to now pretend as if you were always only enamored with his defense... this is intellectually dishonest.

[Landsberger]

Where is Milesfides?

Waiting for a Bron missed game to begin his 19-20 season on this forum.

[Pythagoras]

This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said lol

I also noticed you and a few others have conveniently dropped the elite shooter title that was used repeatedly.

You literally said he only looked good last year because he was defending backups, and you carried that narrative into this year. That was EXACTLY your argument. Why not simply take the L and admit his defense is better than you thought?

And you’ve not once seen me call him an elite shooter. Not once.

Quoting myself on two separate instances:

It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.

Do you have any proof to support your claim? I have proof to support mine.

I said he primarily competed against scrubs... this might've been a slight exaggeration on my part. He did in fact play a majority of his minutes against non starters.

A majority (if you prefer this over the use of primarily) of his minutes were in fact against non-starters. This is not my opinion, this is what the data showed.

The pro Caruso argument almost always included "look at his shooting" from last year. I'm nearly certain I saw more than one poster calling him an elite shooter. If you ignore his relatively sample size. of course he was elite. Arguments in favor of Caruso have been consistent... don't try to now pretend as if you were always only enamored with his defense... this is intellectually dishonest.

From March on last year, Caruso played well for this team and the majority of his minutes were most certainly not against non-starters. That is not what the data showed. You CAN say it wasn't a big enough sample size, but my counter was he was continuing his good play this year, AND he was even passing the eye test defensively.

You'll find not one comment from me raving about Caruso's offense. I've always called him a competent offensive player, which I still consider him to be. And its's not on me to disprove a negative. You're the one making the claim I was enamored with his offense as much as his defense, you provide the proof.

[Ball so hard]

I agree with this. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore. His biggest strengths aren't be utilized. If he's not scoring or shooting the ball, i'm not sure he has much use. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore and it doesn't seem like the coaching staff is even interested in getting him going offensively. I'm still a bit reluctant to say trade him since I don't think we'd get back much in return. Trading Kuz for Fred VavVleet is a pipe dream.

Here is the thing: How do you "get someone going" who can't really do much outside of spot up and cut off the ball?

Not that there's absolutely nothing to this, but I always remember Nick Van Exel jabbing Eddie Jones after he lit up Seattle in a couple of playoff games back in the day. Paraphrasing, he's always bugging me to get him involved, and have I tell him, get yourself involved. Look what happens when you do.

Again, I'm not going to say there's nothing we can do for him. Far, far better players than him have had their roles / games diminished by serving as complementary options in LeBron-centric offenses. (While it doesn't seem to be having much impact, look at how much Brandon Ingram has blossomed with a more expanded role.) And to be fair, he had been shooting pretty great from 3 until the last few games.

But beyond that, Kuzma limits his own options by having such a rudimentary offensive game. This is his third year now, and what noticeable improvements has he made? He has no utility in the pick and roll, either as a ballhandler or screener. He doesn't draw fouls. He can't post up. He can't take anybody off the dribble. He doesn't get easy buckets with putbacks or steals. And so on.

The one exceptional part of his game is his beautiful touch around the rim on floaters and such. But that's only so useful given that he doesn't have the handle or quickness to put himself in position to consistently capitalize on that. All of this would be mitigated to some degree if he contributed in other ways. But as you note, he's pretty much useless when he's not scoring / shooting.

So if we're looking for reasons why he's languishing, we need to start with him first.

I think you're making out Kuzma to be a specialist which is a bit unfair. He has far more to offer on offense than spot up and cutting. People quickly forget he was one of our better scorers his first 2 years.

He's rarely ever involved in the pick and roll game... this is on the coaching staff and not Kuz. There's absolutely no role for Kuz as a ballhandler on this team...not when you have Lebron, Rondo and even AD dominating the ball.

He doesn't draw enough fouls, I agree.

He can't post up... This is not true. He was in the 46th percentile on post ups last season. This is not great but it's a far cry from being incapable of posting up. I'd argue his post up game is no worse than AD's to be honest.

He can't take anybody off the dribble... this is also not true. I've seen him do this several times last season.

He's not a putback kind of guy, which is fine IMO.

A few observation from looking at some of his stats from last year and this year:

-- 36% catch and shoot frequency last year vs 44% this year. This makes sense if you've actually been watching the game. He's basically watching Lebron and AD more than half the time he's out there.
-- FGA less than 10 ft - 48% frequency vs. 32% this year. This is astounding.

Kuz does need to adjust to his new role as this will likely be the norm going forward. However, the coaching staff need to be a better job of getting him involved in our offense.

[Ball so hard]

You literally said he only looked good last year because he was defending backups, and you carried that narrative into this year. That was EXACTLY your argument. Why not simply take the L and admit his defense is better than you thought?

And you’ve not once seen me call him an elite shooter. Not once.

Quoting myself on two separate instances:

It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.

Do you have any proof to support your claim? I have proof to support mine.

I said he primarily competed against scrubs... this might've been a slight exaggeration on my part. He did in fact play a majority of his minutes against non starters.

A majority (if you prefer this over the use of primarily) of his minutes were in fact against non-starters. This is not my opinion, this is what the data showed.

The pro Caruso argument almost always included "look at his shooting" from last year. I'm nearly certain I saw more than one poster calling him an elite shooter. If you ignore his relatively sample size. of course he was elite. Arguments in favor of Caruso have been consistent... don't try to now pretend as if you were always only enamored with his defense... this is intellectually dishonest.

From March on last year, Caruso played well for this team and the majority of his minutes were most certainly not against non-starters. That is not what the data showed. You CAN say it wasn't a big enough sample size, but my counter was he was continuing his good play this year, AND he was even passing the eye test defensively.

You'll find not one comment from me raving about Caruso's offense. I've always called him a competent offensive player, which I still consider him to be. And its's not on me to disprove a negative. You're the one making the claim I was enamored with his offense as much as his defense, you provide the proof.

You don't know what you're talking about. The bolded part proves you haven't looked at any data. Over 95% of Caruso's minutes came in March and onward... why even mention it. Isn't it obvious i'm talking about the 25 games in which he played. There's really nothing to parse out. You've lost whatever little credibility you had. I previously did an analysis on Caruso and have his data readily available. I'm nearly certain you haven't looked at anything.

I'm done wasting my time looking to prove anything to you... facts provided thus far have been one-sided.

[Landsberger]

So in summary..... Kuzma sucks, Rondo sucks and Caruso is a borderline All Star who is misunderstood by the unwashed masses......

[Sedale Threatt]

I agree with this. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore. His biggest strengths aren't be utilized. If he's not scoring or shooting the ball, i'm not sure he has much use. The touches simply aren't there for him anymore and it doesn't seem like the coaching staff is even interested in getting him going offensively. I'm still a bit reluctant to say trade him since I don't think we'd get back much in return. Trading Kuz for Fred VavVleet is a pipe dream.

Here is the thing: How do you "get someone going" who can't really do much outside of spot up and cut off the ball?

Not that there's absolutely nothing to this, but I always remember Nick Van Exel jabbing Eddie Jones after he lit up Seattle in a couple of playoff games back in the day. Paraphrasing, he's always bugging me to get him involved, and have I tell him, get yourself involved. Look what happens when you do.

Again, I'm not going to say there's nothing we can do for him. Far, far better players than him have had their roles / games diminished by serving as complementary options in LeBron-centric offenses. (While it doesn't seem to be having much impact, look at how much Brandon Ingram has blossomed with a more expanded role.) And to be fair, he had been shooting pretty great from 3 until the last few games.

But beyond that, Kuzma limits his own options by having such a rudimentary offensive game. This is his third year now, and what noticeable improvements has he made? He has no utility in the pick and roll, either as a ballhandler or screener. He doesn't draw fouls. He can't post up. He can't take anybody off the dribble. He doesn't get easy buckets with putbacks or steals. And so on.

The one exceptional part of his game is his beautiful touch around the rim on floaters and such. But that's only so useful given that he doesn't have the handle or quickness to put himself in position to consistently capitalize on that. All of this would be mitigated to some degree if he contributed in other ways. But as you note, he's pretty much useless when he's not scoring / shooting.

So if we're looking for reasons why he's languishing, we need to start with him first.

I think you're making out Kuzma to be a specialist which is a bit unfair. He has far more to offer on offense than spot up and cutting. People quickly forget he was one of our better scorers his first 2 years.

He's rarely ever involved in the pick and roll game... this is on the coaching staff and not Kuz. There's absolutely no role for Kuz as a ballhandler on this team...not when you have Lebron, Rondo and even AD dominating the ball.

He doesn't draw enough fouls, I agree.

He can't post up... This is not true. He was in the 46th percentile on post ups last season. This is not great but it's a far cry from being incapable of posting up. I'd argue his post up game is no worse than AD's to be honest.

He can't take anybody off the dribble... this is also not true. I've seen him do this several times last season.

He's not a putback kind of guy, which is fine IMO.

A few observation from looking at some of his stats from last year and this year:

-- 36% catch and shoot frequency last year vs 44% this year. This makes sense if you've actually been watching the game. He's basically watching Lebron and AD more than half the time he's out there.
-- FGA less than 10 ft - 48% frequency vs. 32% this year. This is astounding.

Kuz does need to adjust to his new role as this will likely be the norm going forward. However, the coaching staff need to be a better job of getting him involved in our offense.

None of this inspires any confidence that his game has underutilized elements that we should be trying to feature or capitalize on. Being in the 46th percentile of any category is the definition of mediocre. (And I agree about Davis; he's not a good post-up player either. The thing is, he can shoot, draw fouls, attack the rim off the dribble, crush lobs, get out in transition, dominate the glass ... you get the picture.) And the observation that you saw him take people off the dribble "several times last season" as a positive is unintentionally hilarious. He probably did it way more often than that -- over the course of 82 games, lots of stuff can and does happen -- but still, I couldn't help chuckling at this.

The bottom line is, Kuzma was one of the better scorers on pretty uninspiring teams. Maybe not before LeBron went down last season, during which span he had a really nice December. But otherwise, we don't have a ton of proof that he's got the game or the mentality to be a quality contributor on a team with its sights set on a championship. The stakes have been dramatically raised. He needs to raise his game with it.

With that said, I'll make a lot of concessions here. Again, despite his greatness, LeBron has forced plenty of players to alter their games in ways they might not be suited for. I agree with the idea that our staff needs to do a better job involving him, not in the sense that he's being unfairly frozen out or underutilized, but because he's pretty much the one guy that we have any hope of squeezing any offensive upside out of. (What you see is what you get with everybody else on our roster.) I do acknowledge that offenses centered around ball-dominant players, even ones as great and productive as LeBron, have a tendency to stagnate. And as much as I think it's an excuse, I'll even recognize the possibility that he still needs some time to get his legs back after missing training camp and such.

But I'm always going to put the onus on players first. Truly good players impact the game regardless of circumstances. So whatever is hindering him, he still needs to participate. And given the fact that he hasn't improved in any significant way into his third season, he just isn't doing that.

[Sedale Threatt]

And another note: Even though the types of shots he's taking have changed, his usage percentage is still almost identical to last year. So it's not like he's not getting opportunities. It's just that those opportunities have changed, as you'd expect on a team with two MVP candidates.

[Pythagoras]

Quoting myself on two separate instances:






A majority (if you prefer this over the use of primarily) of his minutes were in fact against non-starters. This is not my opinion, this is what the data showed.

The pro Caruso argument almost always included "look at his shooting" from last year. I'm nearly certain I saw more than one poster calling him an elite shooter. If you ignore his relatively sample size. of course he was elite. Arguments in favor of Caruso have been consistent... don't try to now pretend as if you were always only enamored with his defense... this is intellectually dishonest.

From March on last year, Caruso played well for this team and the majority of his minutes were most certainly not against non-starters. That is not what the data showed. You CAN say it wasn't a big enough sample size, but my counter was he was continuing his good play this year, AND he was even passing the eye test defensively.

You'll find not one comment from me raving about Caruso's offense. I've always called him a competent offensive player, which I still consider him to be. And its's not on me to disprove a negative. You're the one making the claim I was enamored with his offense as much as his defense, you provide the proof.

You don't know what you're talking about. The bolded part proves you haven't looked at any data. Over 95% of Caruso's minutes came in March and onward... why even mention it. Isn't it obvious i'm talking about the 25 games in which he played. There's really nothing to parse out. You've lost whatever little credibility you had. I previously did an analysis on Caruso and have his data readily available. I'm nearly certain you haven't looked at anything.

I'm done wasting my time looking to prove anything to you... facts provided thus far have been one-sided.

Well it’s a good thing you haven’t proved anything or provided any real facts so you’ve wasted no time.

[stan francisco]

Kuzma sucks

Patience, like that old poster used to say.

o rly?
kcp is better than Kuzma

Ratios of paycheck vs contribution argues you could be wrong. If not yet, soon. KCP’s pay further gives our FO motivation to try to package him (despite NTC), for Iggy or attempt a 5 month rental of FVV. If you can get that for a player that does only what AB does better. When Bradley is healthy again, KCP becomes partially redundant. if we’re building a Clipper beater and that requires a complete roster, not one doubled up. makes us a little bit better, let’s do it.

Kuzma’s paycheck of $1.9M(?) makes him untouchable once he gets back to

Patience with Kuzma? Yes, indeed. With KCP? No. Why?

This is the first year he can reasonably be expected to break out. According to all accounts from team USA, he was on pace.

[Ball so hard]

Here is the thing: How do you "get someone going" who can't really do much outside of spot up and cut off the ball?

Not that there's absolutely nothing to this, but I always remember Nick Van Exel jabbing Eddie Jones after he lit up Seattle in a couple of playoff games back in the day. Paraphrasing, he's always bugging me to get him involved, and have I tell him, get yourself involved. Look what happens when you do.

Again, I'm not going to say there's nothing we can do for him. Far, far better players than him have had their roles / games diminished by serving as complementary options in LeBron-centric offenses. (While it doesn't seem to be having much impact, look at how much Brandon Ingram has blossomed with a more expanded role.) And to be fair, he had been shooting pretty great from 3 until the last few games.

But beyond that, Kuzma limits his own options by having such a rudimentary offensive game. This is his third year now, and what noticeable improvements has he made? He has no utility in the pick and roll, either as a ballhandler or screener. He doesn't draw fouls. He can't post up. He can't take anybody off the dribble. He doesn't get easy buckets with putbacks or steals. And so on.

The one exceptional part of his game is his beautiful touch around the rim on floaters and such. But that's only so useful given that he doesn't have the handle or quickness to put himself in position to consistently capitalize on that. All of this would be mitigated to some degree if he contributed in other ways. But as you note, he's pretty much useless when he's not scoring / shooting.

So if we're looking for reasons why he's languishing, we need to start with him first.

I think you're making out Kuzma to be a specialist which is a bit unfair. He has far more to offer on offense than spot up and cutting. People quickly forget he was one of our better scorers his first 2 years.

He's rarely ever involved in the pick and roll game... this is on the coaching staff and not Kuz. There's absolutely no role for Kuz as a ballhandler on this team...not when you have Lebron, Rondo and even AD dominating the ball.

He doesn't draw enough fouls, I agree.

He can't post up... This is not true. He was in the 46th percentile on post ups last season. This is not great but it's a far cry from being incapable of posting up. I'd argue his post up game is no worse than AD's to be honest.

He can't take anybody off the dribble... this is also not true. I've seen him do this several times last season.

He's not a putback kind of guy, which is fine IMO.

A few observation from looking at some of his stats from last year and this year:

-- 36% catch and shoot frequency last year vs 44% this year. This makes sense if you've actually been watching the game. He's basically watching Lebron and AD more than half the time he's out there.
-- FGA less than 10 ft - 48% frequency vs. 32% this year. This is astounding.

Kuz does need to adjust to his new role as this will likely be the norm going forward. However, the coaching staff need to be a better job of getting him involved in our offense.

None of this inspires any confidence that his game has underutilized elements that we should be trying to feature or capitalize on. Being in the 46th percentile of any category is the definition of mediocre. (And I agree about Davis; he's not a good post-up player either. The thing is, he can shoot, draw fouls, attack the rim off the dribble, crush lobs, get out in transition, dominate the glass ... you get the picture.) And the observation that you saw him take people off the dribble "several times last season" as a positive is unintentionally hilarious. He probably did it way more often than that -- over the course of 82 games, lots of stuff can and does happen -- but still, I couldn't help chuckling at this.

The bottom line is, Kuzma was one of the better scorers on pretty uninspiring teams. Maybe not before LeBron went down last season, during which span he had a really nice December. But otherwise, we don't have a ton of proof that he's got the game or the mentality to be a quality contributor on a team with its sights set on a championship. The stakes have been dramatically raised. He needs to raise his game with it.

With that said, I'll make a lot of concessions here. Again, despite his greatness, LeBron has forced plenty of players to alter their games in ways they might not be suited for. I agree with the idea that our staff needs to do a better job involving him, not in the sense that he's being unfairly frozen out or underutilized, but because he's pretty much the one guy that we have any hope of squeezing any offensive upside out of. (What you see is what you get with everybody else on our roster.) I do acknowledge that offenses centered around ball-dominant players, even ones as great and productive as LeBron, have a tendency to stagnate. And as much as I think it's an excuse, I'll even recognize the possibility that he still needs some time to get his legs back after missing training camp and such.

But I'm always going to put the onus on players first. Truly good players impact the game regardless of circumstances. So whatever is hindering him, he still needs to participate. And given the fact that he hasn't improved in any significant way into his third season, he just isn't doing that.

Agree with much of what you said. I just don't think your description of his being solely a spot up shooter and cutter is accurate.

[Ball so hard]

And another note: Even though the types of shots he's taking have changed, his usage percentage is still almost identical to last year. So it's not like he's not getting opportunities. It's just that those opportunities have changed, as you'd expect on a team with two MVP candidates.

Didn't appear to be in line with the eye test so I went ahead and took a look. You are correct that his USG% is nearly identical.

USG% = 100*((Player’s Field Goal Attempts)+0.44*(Player’s Free Throw Attempts)+(Player’s Turnovers))*(Team’s Total Minutes)
/
((Team’s Total Field Goal Attempts)+0.44*(Team’s Total Free Throw Attempts)+Team’s Total Turnovers))*5*(Player’s Minutes)

The first two variables for Kuz, both in aggregate and on a per game basis are way down from last season. Turnovers per game is roughly the same. Possessions are way down from last season... last year he averaged around 33 touches vs 11 this season. Kuz is down almost across the board. There would need to be a similar decrease in the numerator in order to have a similar USG% as last year.

I just don't think the USG% is a stat you can use year over year, and most definitely should not be used to compare full year (last season) to part year (this season).