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Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET

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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#61 » by playaloc916 » Thu Dec 5, 2019 3:36 pm

NippySudz wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:
QRich3 wrote:Yeah and Doc is notorious for always prioritizing rest over practice, which with our stars health prospects, I'm all for.

But yeah, I agree with Nippy, we're running very simple stuff because the guys are still not familiarized with each other and the system. At the start of the season, before George came back, we were running pick up basketball type of offense, just set a pìck for Kawhi or Lou and see what happens after it. Once Doc starts implementing more complex stuff they're gonna thrive, he excels at getting shooters open and we have too many of them.

I wouldn't worry more than necessary about Kawhi's health, even with the health problems he has now, he's one of the most impactful players in the league. He's slower but he's stronger and smarter than he used to, and he's learnt how to get to his spots (on both ends) without the need of being explosive. As long as he can move like this, we'll be fine. The only worry is that it worsens noticeably.



I think the whole team is suffering from lack of familiarity and lack of true PG. Without the familiarity and with three (four if you count Trezz) big time scorers, it’s hard to figure out offball movement and position when other big scorers are alongside you. That movement is part of why Kawhi’s shooting is little off right now, IMO. All of this would be less of a problem if we had a real, pass first, playmaker—but we don’t. That also means simpler offensive schemes at first; no true primary ballhandler. It’s going to take on court time—at least until the break, IMO—for players to get really familiar with each other’s strengths and capabilities.

I do agree with that. We saw a glimpse of what true playmaking could look like for this team against the atlanta hawks when Mann started. Not saying Mann is there or will ever be there, but that game he was excellent. Plus 45. The offense was zooming like crazy. High octane offense. Just think of the offense we would have if the clippers had a true playmaking PG. A ball dominant pg isn't needed, but just having an efficient one would do wonders. Think kyle lowry, george hill, goran dragic. Dragic is coming off the bench for the heat and is averaging 5 asts per game.

But I'm willing to give doc some benefit of the doubt and allowing them to practice and find a rhythm before concluding anything about the offense.

I've been hoping Mann gets more minutes as well. He's still very raw, and makes bad turnovers, but playing 5 minutes isn't going to get him in any sort of rhythm. When he does get extended minutes, I like his aggressiveness and his passing is decent, obviously not as good as Lou, but Lou's primary role is to get buckets... I wonder if he can get some time in the G-Leauge. I see some potential with him. Jerome, I'm still not convinced. He's not really a playmaker, more of a 3&D guy. And once Shamet returns, I don't see any minutes for him, since he's kind of like a poor man's version of Shamet, with maybe better defense but worse offense.
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#62 » by NippySudz » Thu Dec 5, 2019 3:40 pm

playaloc916 wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:

I think the whole team is suffering from lack of familiarity and lack of true PG. Without the familiarity and with three (four if you count Trezz) big time scorers, it’s hard to figure out offball movement and position when other big scorers are alongside you. That movement is part of why Kawhi’s shooting is little off right now, IMO. All of this would be less of a problem if we had a real, pass first, playmaker—but we don’t. That also means simpler offensive schemes at first; no true primary ballhandler. It’s going to take on court time—at least until the break, IMO—for players to get really familiar with each other’s strengths and capabilities.

I do agree with that. We saw a glimpse of what true playmaking could look like for this team against the atlanta hawks when Mann started. Not saying Mann is there or will ever be there, but that game he was excellent. Plus 45. The offense was zooming like crazy. High octane offense. Just think of the offense we would have if the clippers had a true playmaking PG. A ball dominant pg isn't needed, but just having an efficient one would do wonders. Think kyle lowry, george hill, goran dragic. Dragic is coming off the bench for the heat and is averaging 5 asts per game.

But I'm willing to give doc some benefit of the doubt and allowing them to practice and find a rhythm before concluding anything about the offense.

I've been hoping Mann gets more minutes as well. He's still very raw, and makes bad turnovers, but playing 5 minutes isn't going to get him in any sort of rhythm. When he does get extended minutes, I like his aggressiveness and his passing is decent, obviously not as good as Lou, but Lou's primary role is to get buckets... I wonder if he can get some time in the G-Leauge. I see some potential with him. Jerome, I'm still not convinced. He's not really a playmaker, more of a 3&D guy. And once Shamet returns, I don't see any minutes for him, since he's kind of like a poor man's version of Shamet, with maybe better defense but worse offense.
Jerome isn't even that. He's been a disappointment. He only had one good game all season. Can't shoot the ball

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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#63 » by nickhx2 » Thu Dec 5, 2019 9:55 pm

QRich3 wrote:Honestly, I don't think adding a playmaking PG is even a good idea for the long term outlook of this team. Running your offense through 2 big star wings is what every team in the league longs for, and it will make us a lot more dangerous than going the normal route of having a ball dominant PG initiate a pick'n'roll every trip. Yes it'd help with the current transition, but the goal should be long term success (ie- in June), not immediate success at the start of the season.

And we saw how well last year's offense worked through another two wings in Gallo and Tobi, it's just inevitable that it's gonna end up being better when you swap them for two even better wings.


though i don't quite understand why teams might dream of running their offense through 2 star wings, generally, the rest is my feeling as well.

certainly i'm not one of the people who thinks that playmaking is a weakness or that we need a PG. doc rivers has constructed an offense that makes use of an "everyone chips in" approach, and it's a really good one, and one that will be even better with kawhi/pg once they are integrated.

that said while i'm fine with the team as is, i also think a playmaking PG could help, for sure. i just wouldn't really want to trade anything meaningful just to get something that's a luxury. and if you ask me, i think what the team would REALLY like is a stretch big (gallo would be perfect lol), or somehow aaron baynes. beyond that? i'm fine with the team moving forward.
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#64 » by esqtvd » Thu Dec 5, 2019 11:22 pm

FTR:

Lou is 17th in the NBA with 6.3 apg
Kawhi is 26th with 5.3

we're not hurting here


last year, GSW's assists leaders were Draymond and Durant
Curry was 3rd
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#65 » by NippySudz » Thu Dec 5, 2019 11:25 pm

esqtvd wrote:FTR:

Lou is 17th in the NBA with 6.3 apg
Kawhi is 26th with 5.3

we're not hurting here


last year, GSW's assists leaders were Draymond and Durant
Curry was 3rd
Draymond and Durant are considered playmakers especially Draymond.

Because of Draymond, both curry and Klay can play off the ball.

If this team had a playmaker like that, the chip would be in the bag. A versatile forward that can get assists and defend?

Kawhi career assist is 3apg.. PG is 4. I expect it to tailor off a little bit from the 5.3



PG and kawhi can't do this. Not saying they need to. Just saying I don't think the example ia a fair one. The reason why GSW didn't need a playmaking PG is because they had a playmaking forward that could guard 1-5.

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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#66 » by esqtvd » Thu Dec 5, 2019 11:51 pm

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:FTR:

Lou is 17th in the NBA with 6.3 apg
Kawhi is 26th with 5.3

we're not hurting here


last year, GSW's assists leaders were Draymond and Durant
Curry was 3rd


Draymond and Durant are considered playmakers especially Draymond.




point is, the traditional PG is not the only way to skin this cat

and Lou and Kawhi are at career highs in apg and Paul George also averaged 4.1 apg last year

true, we're only 20th in assists but most of that has been without George
and we also run a lot of isos and are #1 in the NBA in 2nd chance points, which are often unassisted
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#67 » by NippySudz » Fri Dec 6, 2019 12:10 am

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:FTR:

Lou is 17th in the NBA with 6.3 apg
Kawhi is 26th with 5.3

we're not hurting here


last year, GSW's assists leaders were Draymond and Durant
Curry was 3rd


Draymond and Durant are considered playmakers especially Draymond.




point is, the traditional PG is not the only way to skin this cat

and Lou and Kawhi are at career highs in apg and Paul George also averaged 4.1 apg last year

true, we're only 20th in assists but most of that has been without George
and we also run a lot of isos and are #1 in the NBA in 2nd chance points, which are often unassisted
I just question is that method sustainable. Kawhi is a turn over machine whenever he gets doubled. Seems like he recognizes too late and by the time he passes it, it's a turn over.

Will kawhi or George stay consistent and turn the ball over less with more practices? I'm excited to find out

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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#68 » by esqtvd » Fri Dec 6, 2019 12:32 am

NippySudz wrote:I just question is that method sustainable. Kawhi is a turn over machine whenever he gets doubled. Seems like he recognizes too late and by the time he passes it, it's a turn over.

Will kawhi or George stay consistent and turn the ball over less with more practices? I'm excited to find out



Yes, good point--Kawhi's TOs have been bad, 3.3 per game, a career-worst. But you would think our team-wide turnover problem will improve with familiarity.

we started out averaging over 17 TO per game over the first month

we're at 16.2 turnovers per game on the year

and trimmed that to 14.3 over the last 7 games, which would be Top 10 if that were our number for the year


with practice and more experience together, we could top even that
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#69 » by NippySudz » Fri Dec 6, 2019 1:30 am

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:I just question is that method sustainable. Kawhi is a turn over machine whenever he gets doubled. Seems like he recognizes too late and by the time he passes it, it's a turn over.

Will kawhi or George stay consistent and turn the ball over less with more practices? I'm excited to find out



Yes, good point--Kawhi's TOs have been bad, 3.3 per game, a career-worst. But you would think our team-wide turnover problem will improve with familiarity.

we started out averaging over 17 TO per game over the first month

we're at 16.2 turnovers per game on the year

and trimmed that to 14.3 over the last 7 games, which would be Top 10 if that were our number for the year


with practice and more experience together, we could top even that


He was quicker in San Antonio so he was able to escape sometimes. In Toronto he wasn't good at escaping and now he put on more muscle mass compared to last yr so he slower but stronger.

I just don't see how someone develops play making in year 9. That goes for George or kawhi. They have tendencies that would be pretty hard to break.

I'm curious to see how fluid the offense runs by all star break. I really hope Leonard os in a slump and it's not his injury that's affecting his lift on his shots. Kawhi himself sounds frustrated so I hope it works out. I think it's rhythm. Same thing I thought with shamet. Just guys getting comfortable with the shots they're getting at the moment they're getting them.

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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#70 » by QRich3 » Fri Dec 6, 2019 7:54 pm

nickhx2 wrote:
QRich3 wrote:Honestly, I don't think adding a playmaking PG is even a good idea for the long term outlook of this team. Running your offense through 2 big star wings is what every team in the league longs for, and it will make us a lot more dangerous than going the normal route of having a ball dominant PG initiate a pick'n'roll every trip. Yes it'd help with the current transition, but the goal should be long term success (ie- in June), not immediate success at the start of the season.

And we saw how well last year's offense worked through another two wings in Gallo and Tobi, it's just inevitable that it's gonna end up being better when you swap them for two even better wings.


though i don't quite understand why teams might dream of running their offense through 2 star wings, generally, the rest is my feeling as well.

It’s just the most common way championship teams have been built in the past, with a big wing as the offensive anchor. It’s often mentioned as the piece teams tend to look for when rebuilding, and we managed to get two of them in their prime. Obviously a championship team can be built in many ways, but this has usually been regarded as the most effective, specially for postseason success.

Not sure how truthful it is, but before the Warriors came around, I remember many arguments about how difficult it’d be to get a chip with a PG as your best player.
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#71 » by nickhx2 » Fri Dec 6, 2019 9:02 pm

oh i thought you meant like, full on point forward. not having them as the apex of the offense. yeah that i get.
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Re: Game 22: Los Angeles Clippers (15-6) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (8-12) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#72 » by esqtvd » Fri Dec 6, 2019 10:42 pm

QRich3 wrote:
Not sure how truthful it is, but before the Warriors came around, I remember many arguments about how difficult it’d be to get a chip with a PG as your best player.



Didn't the Clippers just spend 6 years proving that? :cry:
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