will kuzma be an all star for lakers or just a good role player?

[NippySudz]

His injury was only two weeks? I thought he missed all of training camp. Two weeks. Okay. He missed two weeks.

In two weeks he will turn it on. We all saw what he can do next to Bron last season. Chill and watch.

Is this some crusade? He’s in his third year. We’re 21-3. He gets paid $1.9M. Good opportunity to give him some time. Worst timing ever to trade him now. Over his entire career, this will be the worst value he has in a trade. Right now.

Sorry, didn't know you were accounting for training camp as well. Yes he missed training camp

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[Sedale Threatt]

I don’t know why people think a 3rd man off the bench who has declined yet again to start his career has any trade value.

I don't think he's declined. I'd agree that he doesn't seem to have improved. He's been virtually non existent in much of the games I've watched. However, he's playing 10 less minutes and taking 6 less shots than last year on offense. I'm not sure it's realistic to expect improvement from a volume scorer who's minutes, shots and touches have been significantly reduced.

You're a stats guy. Go look at his advanced numbers. He's having a dreadful season independent of any of that. Or more specifically, he's having a dreadful season for somebody most of us had higher hopes for. And maybe that's the problem. Take that out of the equation, and he's still not good, but the disappointment would be dramatically reduced. At this point, it's a hell of a lot more likely that he's simply a mediocre player who flashed some potential playing on bad teams. And those guys are dime a dozen. The one positive I see is that he's a streak shooter, and if he gets hot at the right time, particularly the playoffs, he could still be an important player for us. But otherwise, my expectations are pretty much nil at this point.

[Ball so hard]

I don’t know why people think a 3rd man off the bench who has declined yet again to start his career has any trade value.

I don't think he's declined. I'd agree that he doesn't seem to have improved. He's been virtually non existent in much of the games I've watched. However, he's playing 10 less minutes and taking 6 less shots than last year on offense. I'm not sure it's realistic to expect improvement from a volume scorer who's minutes, shots and touches have been significantly reduced.

You're a stats guy. Go look at his advanced numbers. He's having a dreadful season independent of any of that. Or more specifically, he's having a dreadful season for somebody most of us had higher hopes for. And maybe that's the problem. Take that out of the equation, and he's still not good, but the disappointment would be dramatically reduced. At this point, it's a hell of a lot more likely that he's simply a mediocre player who flashed some potential playing on bad teams. And those guys are dime a dozen. The one positive I see is that he's a streak shooter, and if he gets hot at the right time, particularly the playoffs, he could still be an important player for us. But otherwise, my expectations are pretty much nil at this point.

He is down across most advanced metrics, especially the ones (PER, WS, BPM, etc.) that are heavily dependent on box score. There's no question that he isn't producing no where near the level he did last year... no disagreement here. Just so we're clear, my only point of contention is that his minutes, touches, etc. are way down and therefore we shouldn't be surprised he isn't producing. It's not like his efficiency has tanked from last year. We've significantly reduced his strongest attribute (scoring, specifically volume shooting) and expect a different outcome? I've said it before, Kuz is basically useless to our team if we aren't asking him/putting him in a position to score. It's not like he's known for his defense, albeit he has improved in that department this year.

On another note: many called Kuz a blackhole and a taller version of Clarkson, yet many are suddenly saying he's being too passive. Which is it? The level of hate this guy gets is truly remarkable.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don't think he's declined. I'd agree that he doesn't seem to have improved. He's been virtually non existent in much of the games I've watched. However, he's playing 10 less minutes and taking 6 less shots than last year on offense. I'm not sure it's realistic to expect improvement from a volume scorer who's minutes, shots and touches have been significantly reduced.

You're a stats guy. Go look at his advanced numbers. He's having a dreadful season independent of any of that. Or more specifically, he's having a dreadful season for somebody most of us had higher hopes for. And maybe that's the problem. Take that out of the equation, and he's still not good, but the disappointment would be dramatically reduced. At this point, it's a hell of a lot more likely that he's simply a mediocre player who flashed some potential playing on bad teams. And those guys are dime a dozen. The one positive I see is that he's a streak shooter, and if he gets hot at the right time, particularly the playoffs, he could still be an important player for us. But otherwise, my expectations are pretty much nil at this point.

He is down across most advanced metrics, especially the ones (PER, WS, BPM, etc.) that are heavily dependent on box score. There's no question that he isn't producing no where near the level he did last year... no disagreement here. Just so we're clear, my only point of contention is that his minutes, touches, etc. are way down and therefore we shouldn't be surprised he isn't producing. It's not like his efficiency has tanked from last year. We've significantly reduced his strongest attribute (scoring, specifically volume shooting) and expect a different outcome? I've said it before, Kuz is basically useless to our team if we aren't asking him/putting him in a position to score. It's not like he's known for his defense, albeit he has improved in that department this year.

On another note: many called Kuz a blackhole and a taller version of Clarkson, yet many are suddenly saying he's being too passive. Which is it? The level of hate this guy gets is truly remarkable.

That's one way to put it. Another would be to say he's been one of our worst rotation players this year. I'm not going to list them all out, but I went through like 11 or 12 different categories, and I think he cracked the top 10 in a grand total of one. Not exactly what you would hope from a former 1st-round pick who flashed decent potential as a rookie but has not improved in any significant way since then, which is where the "hate" stems from.

Because, again, volume shooters/scorers with middling efficiency whose impact revolves around shots/touches are dime a dozen. You're just a guy at that point, and I think it's fair to say that most of us were hoping he could be more than that. Look at this thread title. I'd kill for "just a good role player" at this point.

The good thing is, the season is long, injuries will almost certainly happen, and he'll have his chances to step up and prove if he can be that. Hopefully he will. Just don't act like the vitriol he's earned so far is unfounded. He's really the only significant disappointment we've had so far in what has otherwise been a hugely successful season so far, and that's on him.

[Kilroy]

I don't think he's declined. I'd agree that he doesn't seem to have improved. He's been virtually non existent in much of the games I've watched. However, he's playing 10 less minutes and taking 6 less shots than last year on offense. I'm not sure it's realistic to expect improvement from a volume scorer who's minutes, shots and touches have been significantly reduced.

You're a stats guy. Go look at his advanced numbers. He's having a dreadful season independent of any of that. Or more specifically, he's having a dreadful season for somebody most of us had higher hopes for. And maybe that's the problem. Take that out of the equation, and he's still not good, but the disappointment would be dramatically reduced. At this point, it's a hell of a lot more likely that he's simply a mediocre player who flashed some potential playing on bad teams. And those guys are dime a dozen. The one positive I see is that he's a streak shooter, and if he gets hot at the right time, particularly the playoffs, he could still be an important player for us. But otherwise, my expectations are pretty much nil at this point.

He is down across most advanced metrics, especially the ones (PER, WS, BPM, etc.) that are heavily dependent on box score. There's no question that he isn't producing no where near the level he did last year... no disagreement here. Just so we're clear, my only point of contention is that his minutes, touches, etc. are way down and therefore we shouldn't be surprised he isn't producing. It's not like his efficiency has tanked from last year. We've significantly reduced his strongest attribute (scoring, specifically volume shooting) and expect a different outcome? I've said it before, Kuz is basically useless to our team if we aren't asking him/putting him in a position to score. It's not like he's known for his defense, albeit he has improved in that department this year.

On another note: many called Kuz a blackhole and a taller version of Clarkson, yet many are suddenly saying he's being too passive. Which is it? The level of hate this guy gets is truly remarkable.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive:
Kuz was a blackhole... He called his own number all the time, to take ill advised 3s or drives...
That's not as big an issue this season because his touches are down and it's a big difference when you receive the ball from LeBron and not Ball...

AND... He has been passive this season... Not necessarily from a passing up his own shot standpoint, but from the standpoint that up until the last couple games in garbage time, he's been avoiding contact and trying to finesse everything around the rim. The aggressive slashes and finishes we saw last year are all but gone this season...
He also is avoiding contact like the plague on D...
His 3pt shooting is a little better... So now we have a guy who isn't the deadly sniper he was as a rookie OR the slasher and finisher he became as a Sophomore... It's frustrating.

But that also doesn't make Kuzma useless or a scrub or a bust... He probably over-achieved his rookie year and it went to his head a bit. He tried to become a star his sophomore season by developing post moves and cuts, etc... But the reality is he's kind of 'right sizing' himself back to where the expectations should have been.

What you're seeing isn't hate, it's disappointment... A lot of us just had hoped he would be our 3rd star and that's not looking realistic at this point... Doesn't mean he couldn't still be a big part of the team though.

[Ball so hard]

You're a stats guy. Go look at his advanced numbers. He's having a dreadful season independent of any of that. Or more specifically, he's having a dreadful season for somebody most of us had higher hopes for. And maybe that's the problem. Take that out of the equation, and he's still not good, but the disappointment would be dramatically reduced. At this point, it's a hell of a lot more likely that he's simply a mediocre player who flashed some potential playing on bad teams. And those guys are dime a dozen. The one positive I see is that he's a streak shooter, and if he gets hot at the right time, particularly the playoffs, he could still be an important player for us. But otherwise, my expectations are pretty much nil at this point.

He is down across most advanced metrics, especially the ones (PER, WS, BPM, etc.) that are heavily dependent on box score. There's no question that he isn't producing no where near the level he did last year... no disagreement here. Just so we're clear, my only point of contention is that his minutes, touches, etc. are way down and therefore we shouldn't be surprised he isn't producing. It's not like his efficiency has tanked from last year. We've significantly reduced his strongest attribute (scoring, specifically volume shooting) and expect a different outcome? I've said it before, Kuz is basically useless to our team if we aren't asking him/putting him in a position to score. It's not like he's known for his defense, albeit he has improved in that department this year.

On another note: many called Kuz a blackhole and a taller version of Clarkson, yet many are suddenly saying he's being too passive. Which is it? The level of hate this guy gets is truly remarkable.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive:
Kuz was a blackhole... He called his own number all the time, to take ill advised 3s or drives...
That's not as big an issue this season because his touches are down and it's a big difference when you receive the ball from LeBron and not Ball...

AND... He has been passive this season... Not necessarily from a passing up his own shot standpoint, but from the standpoint that up until the last couple games in garbage time, he's been avoiding contact and trying to finesse everything around the rim. The aggressive slashes and finishes we saw last year are all but gone this season...
He also is avoiding contact like the plague on D...
His 3pt shooting is a little better... So now we have a guy who isn't the deadly sniper he was as a rookie OR the slasher and finisher he became as a Sophomore... It's frustrating.

But that also doesn't make Kuzma useless or a scrub or a bust... He probably over-achieved his rookie year and it went to his head a bit. He tried to become a star his sophomore season by developing post moves and cuts, etc... But the reality is he's kind of 'right sizing' himself back to where the expectations should have been.

What you're seeing isn't hate, it's disappointment... A lot of us just had hoped he would be our 3rd star and that's not looking realistic at this point... Doesn't mean he couldn't still be a big part of the team though.

This is fair for the most part. I obviously disagree on the blackhole part.

I too have noticed that he's been avoiding contact a ton... I'm guessing his injuries may have something to do with this. I'm quite disappointed in Kuz myself.

[Slava]

Kuz isn't being passive by any metric, his usage at 22% is right in line with his career usage of around 23% and his 19 FGA/100 possessions is not far off his career numbers of 21 FGA/100. He's not shooting much worse either, 54.1% TS against career 54.7% TS. His 3 point attempt rate has gone up considerably, 47.6% vs 40% for his career, his free throw rate is hovering around 20% much the same as the rest of his career so if he is avoiding contact, its not showing up there.

His offensive rating looks poor because his turnover rate has spiked up to 14%, which is not flattering for a guy who doesn't even need to handle the ball much when playing alongside dudes like Rondo or LeBron and his assist rate has dropped simultaneously so he looks more like a blackhole.

[Kilroy]

Kuz isn't being passive by any metric, his usage at 22% is right in line with his career usage of around 23% and his 19 FGA/100 possessions is not far off his career numbers of 21 FGA/100. He's not shooting much worse either, 54.1% TS against career 54.7% TS. His 3 point attempt rate has gone up considerably, 47.6% vs 40% for his career, his free throw rate is hovering around 20% much the same as the rest of his career so if he is avoiding contact, its not showing up there.

His offensive rating looks poor because his turnover rate has spiked up to 14%, which is not flattering for a guy who doesn't even need to handle the ball much when playing alongside dudes like Rondo or LeBron and his assist rate has dropped simultaneously so he looks more like a blackhole.

Ok, then if "Passive" doesn't work for you, how about "Soft."

I honestly haven't heard anyone calling Kuz "passive," but I was trying to give Ball so Hard the benefit of the doubt. I had heard people calling Kuz Soft, so I figured maybe that's what he meant by passive.

I can see it either way, really, but I don't care what you call it. He was shying away from contact on either end of the floor. Not sure if there's a metric for that.

[Landsberger]

Kuz is indecisive..... that's the best I've got to describe what I'm seeing. He gets the ball on the wing and immediately gives it back to LeBron. When neither Bron or Davis is in the game he is aggressive with the ball. He's not comfortable and he's not having success at the moment. I don't see regression other than he's not found a way to integrate into this "system".... which seems to be Bron and Davis saying "hold my beer". Hey.... we're 21-3 at the moment without him doing what we know he can do so that's sort of a glass with some water in it.... right?

[LAKESHOW]

Heres a positive note for Kuz fans, since to me he is a good, solid useful role player that doesnt need to be killed during the Holiday season.
Team USA was undefeated with Kuz.
Without Kuz Team USA was 7th place.
Happy Holidays!

[Beethoven]

^that was then. Now he looks like almost as if he knows he is in the process of being traded that is why he looks sort of unmotivated out there

[snaquille oatmeal]

^that was then. Now he looks like almost as if he knows he is in the process of being traded that is why he looks sort of unmotivated out there

It really doesn’t make sense to trade him. Guy is on a cheap contract and enables other possibilities. I understand the gripes with KCP because he is expensive, but Kuz at worse is playing to his salary.

[Landsberger]

Heres a positive note for Kuz fans, since to me he is a good, solid useful role player that doesnt need to be killed during the Holiday season.
Team USA was undefeated with Kuz.
Without Kuz Team USA was 7th place.
Happy Holidays!

The story that was pimped here by a few was that the injury was a "cover story" for cutting him so it was apparent he was cut. You can count on Laker fans to have at least one guy who's vastly overrated and one that is hated to the point of absurdity.

[zimpy27]

^that was then. Now he looks like almost as if he knows he is in the process of being traded that is why he looks sort of unmotivated out there

It really doesn’t make sense to trade him. Guy is on a cheap contract and enables other possibilities. I understand the gripes with KCP because he is expensive, but Kuz at worse is playing to his salary.

Lakers don't need to trade him but they don't need his skill set either.

The SF/PF/C rotation is set for the Lakers.

The Lakers guard rotation isn't so clear. They need a 3 player rotation in the playoffs from Cook, Rondo, Bradley, Caruso, KCP.

Lakers can trade Cook and Bradley ($8.7m) without needing an NTC. The question is whether you can be added Kuzma to this package to get a great guard (salary match to $15.7m)?

Cook and Kuzma could be traded for Derrick Rose for instance.

[tamaraw08]

Kuz is indecisive..... that's the best I've got to describe what I'm seeing. He gets the ball on the wing and immediately gives it back to LeBron. When neither Bron or Davis is in the game he is aggressive with the ball. He's not comfortable and he's not having success at the moment. I don't see regression other than he's not found a way to integrate into this "system".... which seems to be Bron and Davis saying "hold my beer". Hey.... we're 21-3 at the moment without him doing what we know he can do so that's sort of a glass with some water in it.... right?

Kuzma missed the entire training camp and preseason, plus 5 games when his eye got poked etc. I don't know what was Vogel's original plan about maximizing his bench, but Kyle and Rondo missing camp and a handful of games left Frank with the decision to make sure James and AD would ALWAYS be on the court at all times. Lebron goes out after 8-10 minutes in the first quarter then he comes back rested and takes charge of the offense while AD is resting. The aging 35 year old and the young superstar is playing 35 minutes/game, combines for 40 shots and 14 assists and both above 30% usage.
There's still 58 games left to play in the next 4 months and it seems like Vogel is content in over utilizing his aging vet and a young superstar who has nagging shoulder injury and history of various injuries before instead of creating better systems to maximize Kuzma's potential. Unfortunately Kyle is not a shot creator like Ingram or Lou Williams but with the right players like Rondo who is a great passer, Green a good floor spacer etc, I think it can be done.
A 2 man combo of Green/Kuzma has a + 15.5, 3 man combo of Kuzma/Rondo/Caruso is +19.2, Add Howard is +24.4
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01/lineups/2020

[Beethoven]

^that was then. Now he looks like almost as if he knows he is in the process of being traded that is why he looks sort of unmotivated out there

It really doesn’t make sense to trade him. Guy is on a cheap contract and enables other possibilities. I understand the gripes with KCP because he is expensive, but Kuz at worse is playing to his salary.

Hi, I get that point of view, but for our context right now, we need to squeeze out every efficiency we can for the championship run this season. He is not integral right now into the system to be effective; we are winning despite Kuzma, not winning a few games due to his team play...that scenario you state (what lot of people are stating) works better for a building team w more time on hand.

[stan francisco]

Wait a few games and nobody will want to trade him. Even if you do want to trade him, now would be the stupidest time in his entire career to do it.

The timing for trading KCP is perfect.

[Beethoven]

^I wouldnt touch KCP. He is stepping up and sort of consistent. I like him going into the end of the season.
Also, trading him will look sort of bad to AD, especially after they have been pulling for him, and we need to re-sign AD next season.

[iamworthy]

If I’m kuz I hope I get traded. He’s not going to make much money here and playing twenty minutes a night as just another guy doesn’t really boost your value.

[iamworthy]

After a slow start KCP is playing well. in his last 15 games he’s shooting 50% from the field and 44% from 3pt. He’s actually exactly what you would want next to LeBron. Even when he started off slow this year I always thought he played hard. He’s also only 26 yrs old. Even if you include his awful start to the season he's shooting 45% from the field and 38% from 3pt