MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[emunney]

so if he was top 3 in one of those but 10th in the others that would've be fine as long as he was top 3 in one?

That still sounds like a weak case but at least you'd have something to hang your hat on.

being top 5 in almost every single advanced metric is a weak case? okay.

Yeah dude. Consider the competition for the top 3.

KAT:
5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

Giannis:
2nd in VORP
2nd in BPM
2nd in WS
1st in PER

Doncic:
1st in VORP
1st in BPM
4th in WS
2nd in PER

Harden:
3rd in VORP
3rd in BPM
1st in WS
3rd in PER

There are 3 guys who are ahead of him in all four categories.

[clyde21]

Given it's the body of your case for why Towns is clearly in the top 3 I would think so yeah.

so if he was top 3 in one of those but 10th in the others that would've be fine as long as he was top 3 in one?

Yes, he doesn't necessarily need to be top 3 in any one of those stats, but the combination of those stats should show that he's a top 3 candidate. And it doesn't. Because we're comparing (or should be comparing) Towns to everyone else in the field and the top 3 candidates (Giannis, Luka, Harden) are top 3 in almost all of them.

Luka:
VORP - 1st
BPM - 1st
WS - 4th
PER - 2nd

Harden:
VORP - 3rd
BPM - 3rd
WS - 1st
PER - 3rd

Giannis:
VORP - 2nd
BPM - 2nd
WS - 2nd
PER - 1st

Towns:
VORP - 5th
BPM - 4th
WS - 6th
PER - 5th

LeBron:
VORP - 4th
BPM - 5th
WS - 5th
PER - 6th

Davis:
VORP - 6th
BPM - 6th
WS - 3rd
PER - 4th

By your own argument, Giannis 1st and Luka 2nd is appropriate. But putting Towns 3rd and then a gap between him and the rest of field is not. Especially when it basically eliminates Harden who should be 3rd by your standards.

are you actually supposed to be making a point here? you just proved that Towns belongs in the conversation after trying to laugh him out of the conversation.

yea, Luka/Giannis have better advanced metrics, that's why i have them ahead of Towns...so thanks for proving my point for me?

[clyde21]

That still sounds like a weak case but at least you'd have something to hang your hat on.

being top 5 in almost every single advanced metric is a weak case? okay.

Yeah dude. Consider the competition for the top 3.

KAT:
5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

Giannis:
2nd in VORP
2nd in BPM
2nd in WS
1st in PER

Doncic:
1st in VORP
1st in BPM
4th in WS
2nd in PER

Harden:
3rd in VORP
3rd in BPM
1st in WS
3rd in PER

There are 3 guys who are ahead of him in all four categories.

okay, so your issue is that he's 3rd instead of 4th?

[MisterHibachi]

Clyde, not sure why you're willing to die on this particular hill. Timberwolves are the 10th seed. By literally the entire history of the award, Towns is not a candidate with his team in 10th place.

[emunney]

being top 5 in almost every single advanced metric is a weak case? okay.

Yeah dude. Consider the competition for the top 3.

KAT:
5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

Giannis:
2nd in VORP
2nd in BPM
2nd in WS
1st in PER

Doncic:
1st in VORP
1st in BPM
4th in WS
2nd in PER

Harden:
3rd in VORP
3rd in BPM
1st in WS
3rd in PER

There are 3 guys who are ahead of him in all four categories.

okay, so your issue is that he's 3rd instead of 4th?

I don't have an issue, just pointing out that your argument in favor of Towns being top 3 is very obviously bad. You said he was clearly better than everybody except Giannis and Luka and supported that by providing evidence that he's clearly not. Not much else to say about it really.

[clyde21]

Yeah dude. Consider the competition for the top 3.

KAT:
5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

Giannis:
2nd in VORP
2nd in BPM
2nd in WS
1st in PER

Doncic:
1st in VORP
1st in BPM
4th in WS
2nd in PER

Harden:
3rd in VORP
3rd in BPM
1st in WS
3rd in PER

There are 3 guys who are ahead of him in all four categories.

okay, so your issue is that he's 3rd instead of 4th?

I don't have an issue, just pointing out that your argument in favor of Towns being top 3 is very obviously bad. You said he was clearly better than everybody except Giannis and Luka and supported that by providing evidence that he's clearly not. Not much else to say about it really.

except the stats you literally just gave all of us say that he's a legit MVP candidate, yet you're saying 'it's very obviously bad' because you'd have him 4th instead of 3rd? is that your issue here? is that really your argument here?

[emunney]

okay, so your issue is that he's 3rd instead of 4th?

I don't have an issue, just pointing out that your argument in favor of Towns being top 3 is very obviously bad. You said he was clearly better than everybody except Giannis and Luka and supported that by providing evidence that he's clearly not. Not much else to say about it really.

except the stats you literally just gave all of us say that he's a legit MVP candidate, yet you're saying 'it's very obviously bad' because you'd have him 4th instead of 3rd? is that your issue here? is that really your argument here?

I wouldn't have him 4th, but where I would have him is irrelevant. The point is that you made a claim and undercut it with your own evidence. Tip of the hat.

[emunney]

Giannis

Luka
Towns

everyone else

Go off king

[clyde21]

I don't have an issue, just pointing out that your argument in favor of Towns being top 3 is very obviously bad. You said he was clearly better than everybody except Giannis and Luka and supported that by providing evidence that he's clearly not. Not much else to say about it really.

except the stats you literally just gave all of us say that he's a legit MVP candidate, yet you're saying 'it's very obviously bad' because you'd have him 4th instead of 3rd? is that your issue here? is that really your argument here?

I wouldn't have him 4th, but where I would have him is irrelevant. The point is that you made a claim and undercut it with your own evidence. Tip of the hat.

i have him 3rd because the data/metrics/eyetest back up having him 3rd, the metrics you just threw out in your failed attempt to prove he doesn't belong in the conversation proves he belongs in the conversation.

let us know when you actually have a semi-decent point to make.

[Dupp]

Why are people still arguing about towns? Obviously he’s not close to top anything. He’s somewhere between 6-10.. cool.



Anyway RPM out. Lebron leads the league easily.


Giannis

Donic
Lebron

Harden
Davis

...........


Other people. Maybe even towns

[LikeABosh]

so if he was top 3 in one of those but 10th in the others that would've be fine as long as he was top 3 in one?

Yes, he doesn't necessarily need to be top 3 in any one of those stats, but the combination of those stats should show that he's a top 3 candidate. And it doesn't. Because we're comparing (or should be comparing) Towns to everyone else in the field and the top 3 candidates (Giannis, Luka, Harden) are top 3 in almost all of them.

Luka:
VORP - 1st
BPM - 1st
WS - 4th
PER - 2nd

Harden:
VORP - 3rd
BPM - 3rd
WS - 1st
PER - 3rd

Giannis:
VORP - 2nd
BPM - 2nd
WS - 2nd
PER - 1st

Towns:
VORP - 5th
BPM - 4th
WS - 6th
PER - 5th

LeBron:
VORP - 4th
BPM - 5th
WS - 5th
PER - 6th

Davis:
VORP - 6th
BPM - 6th
WS - 3rd
PER - 4th

By your own argument, Giannis 1st and Luka 2nd is appropriate. But putting Towns 3rd and then a gap between him and the rest of field is not. Especially when it basically eliminates Harden who should be 3rd by your standards.

are you actually supposed to be making a point here? you just proved that Towns belongs in the conversation after trying to laugh him out of the conversation.

yea, Luka/Giannis have better advanced metrics, that's why i have them ahead of Towns...so thanks for proving my point for me?

You're kidding me, right? This is YOUR argument. I'm showing you that it makes no sense to place him 3rd by the methods you used to determine your list

I never said advanced stats is what makes up my personal list. I already said being on a lottery team basically eliminates him

I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this

[clyde21]

Yes, he doesn't necessarily need to be top 3 in any one of those stats, but the combination of those stats should show that he's a top 3 candidate. And it doesn't. Because we're comparing (or should be comparing) Towns to everyone else in the field and the top 3 candidates (Giannis, Luka, Harden) are top 3 in almost all of them.

Luka:
VORP - 1st
BPM - 1st
WS - 4th
PER - 2nd

Harden:
VORP - 3rd
BPM - 3rd
WS - 1st
PER - 3rd

Giannis:
VORP - 2nd
BPM - 2nd
WS - 2nd
PER - 1st

Towns:
VORP - 5th
BPM - 4th
WS - 6th
PER - 5th

LeBron:
VORP - 4th
BPM - 5th
WS - 5th
PER - 6th

Davis:
VORP - 6th
BPM - 6th
WS - 3rd
PER - 4th

By your own argument, Giannis 1st and Luka 2nd is appropriate. But putting Towns 3rd and then a gap between him and the rest of field is not. Especially when it basically eliminates Harden who should be 3rd by your standards.

are you actually supposed to be making a point here? you just proved that Towns belongs in the conversation after trying to laugh him out of the conversation.

yea, Luka/Giannis have better advanced metrics, that's why i have them ahead of Towns...so thanks for proving my point for me?

You're kidding me, right? This is YOUR argument. I'm showing you that it makes no sense to place him 3rd by the methods you used to determine your list

I never said advanced stats is what makes up my personal list. I already said being on a lottery team basically eliminates him

I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this

what are you talking about? you said he doesn't belong in the conversation, and you think listing THOSE metrics proves that he doesn't belong in the conversation? is that the best you can do here?

[LikeABosh]

what are you talking about? you said he doesn't belong in the conversation, and you think listing THOSE metrics proves that he doesn't belong in the conversation? is that the best you can do here?

Dude...I don't think it's too hard to follow

Your first post:

Giannis

Luka
Towns

everyone else

So Towns is 3rd and this implies there's a decent gap between him and the rest of the field

When asked "why Towns?", you replied:

26/12/4.5 with 1.5bpg on 66 TS%

5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

the Wolves would be picking top3 in the draft without Towns

So, he's in 3rd place according to you because of his advanced stats that you chose to list. When I asked about wins, you said you don't care about them. Cool. This is the argument you picked

Even if we accept that those stats are the best way to rank the MVP candidates and decide to ignore wins, Towns' grade in those stats still don't suggest he's 3rd. They especially don't suggest he's ranked ahead of Harden. By your own standards, ranking Towns 3rd makes no sense. And that's with gifting you the benefit of not having to account for team record.

When I said he's not a serious candidate, it wasn't because he isn't playing well. He's probably a top 7 player this year with all the injuries to Curry, KD, and Kawhi. It's because he has no chance (as of today) to win or even place in the top 4 if his team is in the lottery. Wins don't matter to you. But they matter to me and almost everyone else and that's why we're perplexed with Towns being listed 3rd

I suggest reading my entire post instead of immediately getting defensive because someone disagrees with you

[clyde21]

what are you talking about? you said he doesn't belong in the conversation, and you think listing THOSE metrics proves that he doesn't belong in the conversation? is that the best you can do here?

Dude...I don't think it's too hard to follow

Your first post:

Giannis

Luka
Towns

everyone else

So Towns is 3rd and this implies there's a decent gap between him and the rest of the field

When asked "why Towns?", you replied:

26/12/4.5 with 1.5bpg on 66 TS%

5th in VORP
4th in BPM
6th in WS
5th in PER

the Wolves would be picking top3 in the draft without Towns

So, he's in 3rd place according to you because of his advanced stats that you chose to list. When I asked about wins, you said you don't care about them. Cool. This is the argument you picked

Even if we accept that those stats are the best way to rank the MVP candidates and decide to ignore wins, Towns' grade in those stats still don't suggest he's 3rd. They especially don't suggest he's ranked ahead of Harden. By your own standards, ranking Towns 3rd makes no sense. And that's with gifting you the benefit of not having to account for team record.

When I said he's not a serious candidate, it wasn't because he isn't playing well. He's probably a top 7 player this year with all the injuries to Curry, KD, and Kawhi. It's because he has no chance (as of today) to win or even place in the top 4 if his team is in the lottery. Wins don't matter to you. But they matter to me and almost everyone else and that's why we're perplexed with Towns being listed 3rd

I suggest reading my entire post instead of immediately getting defensive because someone disagrees with you

i didn't get defensive at all, you're the one that got defensive and laughed Towns off as a legitimate candidate, and then pretended like his metrics prove your point when they did the exact opposite.

and yes, thank you for requoting my list to me -- again, what's your issue? is your issue that Towns is 3rd? I don't get it. Yes, I have Towns over Harden, Davis and LeBron as I've already explained multiple times in this thread.

[LikeABosh]

then pretended like his metrics prove your point when they did the exact opposite.

???

I never used those metrics to prove he wasn't a viable candidate. I don't consider him a serious candidate because of team record, but that's entirely different from what we're discussing with the advanced stats. Please read my entire posts

I used them to prove he's clearly not 3rd IF that's what you want to base your rankings off. That's how you presented your argument and I showed that it's inconsistent. Did you not compare his advanced stats to the other candidates?

and yes, thank you for requoting my list to me -- again, what's your issue? is your issue that Towns is 3rd? I don't get it.

Ask a specific question if you don't understand. I gave you a lot to read and your retorts have just been the same. I already explained it in two different ways

[clyde21]

then pretended like his metrics prove your point when they did the exact opposite.

???

I never used those metrics to prove he wasn't a viable candidate. I don't consider him a serious candidate because of team record, but that's entirely different from what we're discussing with the advanced stats. Please read my entire posts

I used them to prove he's clearly not 3rd IF that's what you want to base your rankings off. That's how you presented your argument and I showed that it's inconsistent. Did you not compare his advanced stats to the other candidates?

and yes, thank you for requoting my list to me -- again, what's your issue? is your issue that Towns is 3rd? I don't get it.

Ask a specific question if you don't understand. I gave you a lot to read and your retorts have just been the same. I already explained it in two different ways

then why'd you post them in comp to Anthony Davis and LeBron James? i already posted Towns' metrics when I dropped my list, I know what his metrics are and I know how they compare to everyone else...you thought you had a point, let's pretend it didn't happen and move on because this conversation is getting nauseating at this point.

i did. I don't understand what your point is. are you offended that Towns is 3rd, or do you not think he's a candidate altogether? and I already told I couldn't give two **** about the W/L column at this point.

[LikeABosh]

then why'd you post them in comp to Anthony Davis and LeBron James? i already posted Towns' metrics when I dropped my list, I know what his metrics are and I know how they compare to everyone else...

But you clearly don't. If you did, you wouldn't have indicated a large gap between Towns and everyone else after 3rd. His advanced stats are comparable to LeBron and Davis and way way behind Harden. Harden should be your 3rd choice and so far you're only response has been sarcastic rhetorical questions

And in case you get confused again, just remember I'm playing along with what you want to use to determine MVP rankings

I already told I couldn't give two **** about the W/L column at this point.

That's why I excluded it when talking about YOUR argument. I've said this how many times now? I was fair enough not to bring it up because I didn't need it to show Towns as #3 doesn't make any sense.

[clyde21]

then why'd you post them in comp to Anthony Davis and LeBron James? i already posted Towns' metrics when I dropped my list, I know what his metrics are and I know how they compare to everyone else...

But you clearly don't. If you did, you wouldn't have indicated a large gap between Towns and everyone else after 3rd. His advanced stats are comparable to LeBron and Davis and way way behind Harden. Harden should be your 3rd choice and so far you're only response has been sarcastic rhetorical questions

And in case you get confused again, just remember I'm playing along with what you want to use to determine MVP rankings

I already told I couldn't give two **** about the W/L column at this point.

That's why I excluded it when talking about YOUR argument. I've said this how many times now? I was fair enough not to bring it up because I didn't need it to show Towns as #3 doesn't make any sense.

yes I do, I already stated earlier in the thread, multiple times, why I have Towns ahead of those guys, I've repeated myself numerous times already in my thread, you're more than welcome to go back and read through it.

[LikeABosh]

Harden with another monster game

Giannis sits and Bucks are dominating. Waiting for someone to move him out of the 1st spot because of it

[Ambrose]

then why'd you post them in comp to Anthony Davis and LeBron James? i already posted Towns' metrics when I dropped my list, I know what his metrics are and I know how they compare to everyone else...

But you clearly don't. If you did, you wouldn't have indicated a large gap between Towns and everyone else after 3rd. His advanced stats are comparable to LeBron and Davis and way way behind Harden. Harden should be your 3rd choice and so far you're only response has been sarcastic rhetorical questions

And in case you get confused again, just remember I'm playing along with what you want to use to determine MVP rankings

I already told I couldn't give two **** about the W/L column at this point.

That's why I excluded it when talking about YOUR argument. I've said this how many times now? I was fair enough not to bring it up because I didn't need it to show Towns as #3 doesn't make any sense.

He's just trolling because he's salty people took Steph and KD off their boards for playing together. That's why he's going out his way to spite LeBron and Harden despite it being blatantly obvious it's the same situation. You've wrecked every argument he has.