MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[ropjhk]

I have it right now as this:

1)Giannis
2)Harden
3)Luka
4)Lebron

[picko]

How impressive are the numbers anyway? I think everyone can recognize that stats nowadays are heavily inflated, I just wonder how one can adjust appropriately to put them in proper historic context. Perhaps measuring the difference in proportions of variance/standard deviation, relative to median scoring?

Most advanced stats are normalised in some fashion. Allowing for reasonable comparisons across time.

Gianni's and Luka have some of the most impressive advanced numbers we've ever seen. Harden is not far off them. What we are seeing is exceptional.

[greekbuck34]

Giannis


Luka

Harden/Lebron
AD

[Ron Swanson]

I guess it's just become easier to casually dismiss all statistics as "inflated" than to actually acknowledge greatness while it's happening. I didn't frequent this site until around 2013, so I do wonder if people were calling Wade/Lebron/KD/Dwight/Kobe/Curry's stats "inflated" during that 2008-2012 period where we started to see these upticks in efficiency, individual PER, etc.

[clyde21]

If you forget KD,AD,Luka and Giannis sure he’s the best prospect since lebron.

Giannis was not a can't miss prospect, that's purely hindsight on ur part

Davis and KD were up there but Zion is a better prospect, and Luka was not as unanimous as Zion was.

Why does unanimous and can’t miss matter? Still great prospects. Also Giannis was absolutely a cant miss prospect nba teams just didn’t realise.

ok, you're still using hindsight, Giannis was not a great prospect, was a huge unknown/project, you're working backwards from your conclusion it doesn't make any sense.

[the7boss]

What a Show from Luka in Mexico.

How can a basketball fan not enjoy his game?

His biggest strength is his ability to make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like allstars.

He is my MVP so far.

[Colbinii]

What a Show from Luka in Mexico.

How can a basketball fan not enjoy his game?

His biggest strength is his ability to make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like allstars.

He is my MVP so far.

The Mavericks have the best bench in the NBA and the Mavericks have the highest Offensive Rating in the league without Luka [around 115 when Luka sits, next highest is 114].

Giannis is clearly better and doing more with less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[Ron Swanson]

I thoroughly enjoy the show that Luka puts on every night but yeah, people need to stop acting like he's carrying a bunch of bums here. They're an incredibly well-coached and well constructed roster full of veteran role-players outside of Luka/Porzingis/Brunson, who all know their roles and excel at them. It's a similar situation to Giannis in Milwaukee. Acting like any of these guys (Harden, Lebron) are carrying a roster full of bench scrubs is just annoying and needs to stop being this end-all criteria for what the MVP is.

[NY 567]

Let's not forget that RealGMers were putting Zion ahead of Luka on their lists vefore the season started. Lmao

Luka is ridiculous but if you can guarantee me Zion health I'm still taking Zion

Luka is almost averaging a 30 point triple double with a 62 TS% and leading one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA history with a KP who can't make a shot and guys like Finney Smith and Tim Hardaway Jr as main options. Peak Zion even if healthy likely won't even be in the same stratosphere as 20 year old Luka, let alone a 27 year old Luka. Just a totally different class of player and prospect.

[clyde21]

I thoroughly enjoy the show that Luka puts on every night but yeah, people need to stop acting like he's carrying a bunch of bums here. They're an incredibly well-coached and well constructed roster full of veteran role-players outside of Luka/Porzingis/Brunson, who all know their roles and excel at them. It's a similar situation to Giannis in Milwaukee. Acting like any of these guys (Harden, Lebron) are carrying a roster full of bench scrubs is just annoying and needs to stop being this end-all criteria for what the MVP is.

+1000

[Colbinii]

I thoroughly enjoy the show that Luka puts on every night but yeah, people need to stop acting like he's carrying a bunch of bums here. They're an incredibly well-coached and well constructed roster full of veteran role-players outside of Luka/Porzingis/Brunson, who all know their roles and excel at them. It's a similar situation to Giannis in Milwaukee. Acting like any of these guys (Harden, Lebron) are carrying a roster full of bench scrubs is just annoying and needs to stop being this end-all criteria for what the MVP is.

The way this board and fans in general have changed the narrative for MVP is interesting.

It seems like it is now "Best player award" when it used to be more narrative driven. Remembering back to when Rose was winning because he was the "Best player" on the "Best team" yet many people would have taken multiple players over him that regular season if they put aside clear biases [Howard, Dirk, LeBron and even Wade].

Another interesting thing is people LOVE the "shiny new object". Last season Giannis won in a "landslide" over Harden and now we have Giannis who is playing even better than last year [Think 2008 to 2009 LeBron type jump] and people are picking Doncic over him. Giannis is having a much greater impact on the game, is having [arguably] the greatest statistical season of all-time while leading arguably the greatest regular season team [W/L, SRS] of all-time and yet people are siding with Doncic. Crazy.

[leolozon]

What a Show from Luka in Mexico.

How can a basketball fan not enjoy his game?

His biggest strength is his ability to make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like allstars.

He is my MVP so far.

The Mavericks have the best bench in the NBA and the Mavericks have the highest Offensive Rating in the league without Luka [around 115 when Luka sits, next highest is 114].

Giannis is clearly better and doing more with less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

That's such a lazy analysis... Having a great bench is now more important than having better starters: "Stop the press! What you need is the best 6-10 guys! Stop trying to find great 2nd-5th options! Help can only come from the bench, starters don't matter!"

While Giannis is the MVP so far, he certainly isn't doing more with less while he's on the floor. The second best offensive player in the Mavs' starting lineup is Tim Hardaway Jr... You want to look at the Bucks' starting lineup?

[Colbinii]

Let's not forget that RealGMers were putting Zion ahead of Luka on their lists vefore the season started. Lmao

Luka is ridiculous but if you can guarantee me Zion health I'm still taking Zion

Luka is almost averaging a 30 point triple double with a 62 TS% and leading one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA history with a KP who can't make a shot and guys like Finney Smith and Tim Hardaway Jr as main options. Peak Zion even if healthy likely won't even be in the same stratosphere as 20 year old Luka, let alone a 27 year old Luka. Just a totally different class of player and prospect.

The offense is one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA History with Luka on the bench as well.

[NY 567]

Luka is ridiculous but if you can guarantee me Zion health I'm still taking Zion

Luka is almost averaging a 30 point triple double with a 62 TS% and leading one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA history with a KP who can't make a shot and guys like Finney Smith and Tim Hardaway Jr as main options. Peak Zion even if healthy likely won't even be in the same stratosphere as 20 year old Luka, let alone a 27 year old Luka. Just a totally different class of player and prospect.

The offense is one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA History with Luka on the bench as well.

That sounds nice and is impressive for sure, but their bench is playing 12-14 minutes a night without Luka on the floor and doing it in spurts against bench units. Very different than Luka doing it vs starting units for the majority of the game with a unit that otherwise wouldn't be dynamic at all. It's impressive as hell that Luka can do this with the starting unit considering how bad Porzingis has been on offense, he's brought their offensive efficiency down a lot and they're still an all time great offensive starting unit. If KP was playing well, Luka would be leading an even more dynamic and efficient offense. Luka is essentially leading an all time offense with 3 role players and a liability against the oppositions starting teams.

[Dupp]

What a Show from Luka in Mexico.

How can a basketball fan not enjoy his game?

His biggest strength is his ability to make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like allstars.

He is my MVP so far.

The Mavericks have the best bench in the NBA and the Mavericks have the highest Offensive Rating in the league without Luka [around 115 when Luka sits, next highest is 114].

Giannis is clearly better and doing more with less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Firstly, how have you not learnt to turn your sig off yet?

Anyway. It is an interesting point I suppose. I don’t really believe giannis has “less “ than luka even though they’re performing better when he’s offf the court. Do you really the the mavs cast >> bucks?

I can definitely see more of an argument over hardens cast but i think giannis’ cast is pretty strong.

[leolozon]

I thoroughly enjoy the show that Luka puts on every night but yeah, people need to stop acting like he's carrying a bunch of bums here. They're an incredibly well-coached and well constructed roster full of veteran role-players outside of Luka/Porzingis/Brunson, who all know their roles and excel at them. It's a similar situation to Giannis in Milwaukee. Acting like any of these guys (Harden, Lebron) are carrying a roster full of bench scrubs is just annoying and needs to stop being this end-all criteria for what the MVP is.

The way this board and fans in general have changed the narrative for MVP is interesting.

It seems like it is now "Best player award" when it used to be more narrative driven. Remembering back to when Rose was winning because he was the "Best player" on the "Best team" yet many people would have taken multiple players over him that regular season if they put aside clear biases [Howard, Dirk, LeBron and even Wade].

Another interesting thing is people LOVE the "shiny new object". Last season Giannis won in a "landslide" over Harden and now we have Giannis who is playing even better than last year [Think 2008 to 2009 LeBron type jump] and people are picking Doncic over him. Giannis is having a much greater impact on the game, is having [arguably] the greatest statistical season of all-time while leading arguably the greatest regular season team [W/L, SRS] of all-time and yet people are siding with Doncic. Crazy.

Giannis is comfortably winning. What do you mean by "people"? The minority thinks that someone else than Giannis should win? What's the problem? Giannis would win a landslide if the official voting was now.

Don't forget that IF Giannis is having arguably the greatest statistical season of all-time, Doncic is having arguably the second greatest statistical season of all-time considering he's so close to Giannis. The Mavs also far exceeded their expectations (so far). Maybe it has something to do with some people thinking his name is worth mentioning.

[Colbinii]

What a Show from Luka in Mexico.

How can a basketball fan not enjoy his game?

His biggest strength is his ability to make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like allstars.

He is my MVP so far.

The Mavericks have the best bench in the NBA and the Mavericks have the highest Offensive Rating in the league without Luka [around 115 when Luka sits, next highest is 114].

Giannis is clearly better and doing more with less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

That's such a lazy analysis... Having a great bench is now more important than having better starters.

Huh? I never said that.
It is also ironic you said I have "lazy analysis" when the guy I was replying to used the analysis of, and I quote "make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like all-stars"...as if that is analysis?

Stop the press! What you need is the best 6-10 guys! Stop trying to find great 2nd-5th options! Help can only come from the bench!

Hyperbolic?

While Giannis is the MVP so far, he certainly isn't doing more with less while he's on the floor. The second best offensive player in the starting lineup is Tim Hardaway Jr... You want to look at the Bucks' starting lineup?

I never said it is one side of the coin.

The Mavericks have some nice pieces offensively who fit perfectly with a ball-dominant, do-everything-on-offensise-player like Luka or Harden.

Just looking through the roster guys like Hardaway, Curry, Kleber, Wright, Powell are all perfect fits offensively next to Luka. They space the floor or finish above/around the rim at an elite-level. Tremendous roster construction around Luka to maximize his talents as a player. The obvious black mark for Dallas is Porzingis but having a player like him who doesn't need the ball in his hand to make an impact is, again, another positive asset for Dallas [Well, he has sucked when the ball is in his hand].

This team is constructed very similarly to the Houston Rockets actually: Great coach, high IQ offensive star who can do it all, overpaid 2nd star who is terrible [westbrook/zinger]. I actually think these two rosters are nearly identical and I think Dallas has a roster better suited to maximize Doncic more than Houston does with Harden but both do a tremendous job with it.

Milwaukee to me is a bit more impressive because Giannis, while having less responsibility on offense, is putting together one of the best defensive seasons of the decade.

[igorbianch]

Giannis per 36 and per 100 possessions stats are ridiculous.

I think he might be the unanimous MVP.

[Colbinii]

Luka is almost averaging a 30 point triple double with a 62 TS% and leading one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA history with a KP who can't make a shot and guys like Finney Smith and Tim Hardaway Jr as main options. Peak Zion even if healthy likely won't even be in the same stratosphere as 20 year old Luka, let alone a 27 year old Luka. Just a totally different class of player and prospect.

The offense is one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA History with Luka on the bench as well.

That sounds nice and is impressive for sure, but their bench is playing 12-14 minutes a night without Luka on the floor and doing it in spurts against bench units. Very different than Luka doing it vs starting units for the majority of the game with a unit that otherwise wouldn't be dynamic at all. It's impressive as hell that Luka can do this with the starting unit considering how bad Porzingis has been on offense, he's brought their offensive efficiency down a lot and they're still an all time great offensive starting unit. If KP was playing well, Luka would be leading an even more dynamic and efficient offense. Luka is essentially leading an all time offense with 3 role players and a liability against the oppositions starting teams.

They do it against starters as well since Doncic usually sits during the start of the 4th and many teams play a majority of their starters during start of the 4th.

[leolozon]

The Mavericks have the best bench in the NBA and the Mavericks have the highest Offensive Rating in the league without Luka [around 115 when Luka sits, next highest is 114].

Giannis is clearly better and doing more with less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

That's such a lazy analysis... Having a great bench is now more important than having better starters.

Huh? I never said that.
It is also ironic you said I have "lazy analysis" when the guy I was replying to used the analysis of, and I quote "make his opponents look like bums and his teammates like all-stars"...as if that is analysis?

Stop the press! What you need is the best 6-10 guys! Stop trying to find great 2nd-5th options! Help can only come from the bench!

Hyperbolic?

While Giannis is the MVP so far, he certainly isn't doing more with less while he's on the floor. The second best offensive player in the starting lineup is Tim Hardaway Jr... You want to look at the Bucks' starting lineup?

I never said it is one side of the coin.

The Mavericks have some nice pieces offensively who fit perfectly with a ball-dominant, do-everything-on-offensise-player like Luka or Harden.

Just looking through the roster guys like Hardaway, Curry, Kleber, Wright, Powell are all perfect fits offensively next to Luka. They space the floor or finish above/around the rim at an elite-level. Tremendous roster construction around Luka to maximize his talents as a player. The obvious black mark for Dallas is Porzingis but having a player like him who doesn't need the ball in his hand to make an impact is, again, another positive asset for Dallas [Well, he has sucked when the ball is in his hand].

This team is constructed very similarly to the Houston Rockets actually: Great coach, high IQ offensive star who can do it all, overpaid 2nd star who is terrible [westbrook/zinger]. I actually think these two rosters are nearly identical and I think Dallas has a roster better suited to maximize Doncic more than Houston does with Harden but both do a tremendous job with it.

Milwaukee to me is a bit more impressive because Giannis, while having less responsibility on offense, is putting together one of the best defensive seasons of the decade.

Sorry for the hypobole, but I think you were forgetting the bigger part of the equation. While you didn't directly said what I wrote, it was certainly implied in your post by looking only at how the bench is performing and then stating : " Giannis is clearly doing more with less." As if only the bench should be considered when talking about the help a player is getting. Usually, the 4 other starters are considered more important than the bench considering they play more minutes, yet you chose to completely disregard it.

Doncic needs 3pt shooting around him and the 3 best 3pt shooters in Dallas are actually on the bench... (THJ isn't consistent, he could well be one, but he's not right now). The roster is not perfectly constructed for him, if it was, he would be playing with better 3 and D guys than 3 guys who are below average 3pt shooters (probably 4 considering THJ has an average % and mostly do catch and shoot) and 2 guys who are below average defenders.

Anyway, Giannis is still number 1.