How the illegal defense rule made it easier for Jordan to score in the ‘90s

[Dr Spaceman]

Jordan isn’t a better ball handler than Harden. Harden is the best ball handler ever at his size. Jordan’s game featured a heavy diet of mid range shoots and running around screens. He was much more off-ball focused than Harden. He’d ave to complete;y change his game to achieve the foul draw rates Harden does.

I don't even know how to reply to that.

Before Jordan won titles, he was very heavily as iso based player. Detroit consistently beat the Bulls by just hammering MJ on those isolation drives. Krause wanted the team to share the ball more, which is why he forced the triangle on them. After that MJ certainly did get his fair share of off ball action but that wasn't because it was his game, it was just how the Bulls decided they had to win. Its funny, but MJ actually did change his game to effectively draw less fouls because the rules at the time didn't let him do what Harden does.

Quite simply, if MJ got Harden like reffing in the late 80's, the Bulls have two more titles and Detroit has two less. Doug Collins goes on to be a legend and we never would have heard of PhilJax as a coach.

In 1989 Barkley had a 74% free throw rate in the regular season and a 69% free throw rate in the playoffs.

Is your argument that refs were giving Barkley the Harden treatment but not MJ?

[homecourtloss]

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

That was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

“I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

"A couple of times I got in and I just couldn't finish it," said Jordan, who shot 11-for-28.

"There's not anybody on this planet that's going to stop Michael," Charlotte guard Baron Davis said. "So you have to make him make it a team effort. If you can do that, you can win."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-26-wizards-hornets.htm

[Sprewell4Three]

So this is just another thread to discredit Jordan's legacy right?

So what are the narratives now?
"MJ didn't win a championship until boston and the lakers got old"
"If it wasn't for Pippen Jordan would be ringless"
"Jordan played against uber drivers white guys"
"Jordan played in an era that had expansion teams"
"MJ would be demar derozan in this current era"

Any other tired and boring internet narrative that i'm missing?

[70sFan]

I love how the same arguments used to be screamed by 1990s guys about 1960s and 1970s. Now we have people who think that guys from 1990s were terrible. 20 years later people will doubt that James is any good. Can't wait for that one.

[70sFan]

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

That was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

“I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

"A couple of times I got in and I just couldn't finish it," said Jordan, who shot 11-for-28.

"There's not anybody on this planet that's going to stop Michael," Charlotte guard Baron Davis said. "So you have to make him make it a team effort. If you can do that, you can win."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-26-wizards-hornets.htm

I'm sure that James also hates playing against zones. Doesn't mean that he can't do it well.

[Hornet Mania]

Barkley in 1989 had a foul draw rate of 74%. Not only does that make Harden blush, that’s about 20% higher than Harden has ever achieved.

So if you’re going to say that Jordan’s FTR would skyrocket today, will you make the same argument for Barkley? After all PFs are way smaller today. How high could it get? 90%? Could he draw The same amount of fouls as field goal attempts? By your logic it seems possible.

I'm not sure whether Jordan would match Harden's FTR (depends on if he embraces the art of the flop) but Barkley is an extremely poor example for this comparison because that example doesn't take into account the contextual factor of change in foul enforcement. Foul calls have changed dramatically in the last 25 years with that change favoring perimeter players. You are allowed far less physicality on the perimeter or guarding drives in the modern game than at any point in the 80s/90s while post play is still more or less allowed to be rough so long as you go straight up when defending.

[Dr Spaceman]

Barkley in 1989 had a foul draw rate of 74%. Not only does that make Harden blush, that’s about 20% higher than Harden has ever achieved.

So if you’re going to say that Jordan’s FTR would skyrocket today, will you make the same argument for Barkley? After all PFs are way smaller today. How high could it get? 90%? Could he draw The same amount of fouls as field goal attempts? By your logic it seems possible.

I'm not sure whether Jordan would match Harden's FTR (depends on if he embraces the art of the flop) but Barkley is an extremely poor example for this comparison because that example doesn't take into account the contextual factor of change in foul enforcement. Foul calls have changed dramatically in the last 25 years with that change favoring perimeter players. You are allowed far less physicality on the perimeter or guarding drives in the modern game than at any point in the 80s/90s while post play is still more or less allowed to be rough so long as you go straight up when defending.

That still doesn’t explain why Barkley’s free throw rate was so much higher in-era. If Jordan really was this terrifying force around the basket who’d draw innumerable fouls in this era it doesn’t square with Barkley being such a superior foul drawer. Unless the argument is supposed to be that in the early 90s refs actually had a quicker whistle on post players than perimeter guys which seems... highly dubious.

Some guys are just better at drawing fouls. Dirk mainly shot the hardest type of shot to draw fouls on and yet has one of the highest draw rates ever. I’m not going to assume Jordan could match Harden’s draw rate just like I won’t assume Dirk could match Barkley’s in the 80s.

[Hornet Mania]

Barkley in 1989 had a foul draw rate of 74%. Not only does that make Harden blush, that’s about 20% higher than Harden has ever achieved.

So if you’re going to say that Jordan’s FTR would skyrocket today, will you make the same argument for Barkley? After all PFs are way smaller today. How high could it get? 90%? Could he draw The same amount of fouls as field goal attempts? By your logic it seems possible.

I'm not sure whether Jordan would match Harden's FTR (depends on if he embraces the art of the flop) but Barkley is an extremely poor example for this comparison because that example doesn't take into account the contextual factor of change in foul enforcement. Foul calls have changed dramatically in the last 25 years with that change favoring perimeter players. You are allowed far less physicality on the perimeter or guarding drives in the modern game than at any point in the 80s/90s while post play is still more or less allowed to be rough so long as you go straight up when defending.

That still doesn’t explain why Barkley’s free throw rate was so much higher in-era. If Jordan really was this terrifying force around the basket who’d draw innumerable fouls in this era it doesn’t square with Barkley being such a superior foul drawer. Unless the argument is supposed to be that in the early 90s refs actually had a quicker whistle on post players than perimeter guys which seems... highly dubious.

Some guys are just better at drawing fouls. Dirk mainly shot the hardest type of shot to draw fouls on and yet has one of the highest draw rates ever. I’m not going to assume Jordan could match Harden’s draw rate just like I won’t assume Dirk could match Barkley’s in the 80s.

The point was that Barkley's play style is nothing like either Jordan or Harden so how is his FTR relevant at all? A drive to the hoop is officiated differently than a post-up, different amounts of contact are tolerated for each. Barkley also spent far more time in the paint banging bodies than either MJ or Harden ever did. A more relevant comparison would be if you could point to other wing players in Jordan's era that attacked the paint and had a higher FTR, which would indicate if MJ wasn't #1 in that comparison in the 90s he also would not depose the #1 guy in that respect in the modern game.

I'm not arguing MJ would draw the same or greater FTs than Harden, I just thought it was weird you cherry-picked another great whose play style which drew those fouls had little in common with either of the ATG SGs being compared.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm not sure whether Jordan would match Harden's FTR (depends on if he embraces the art of the flop) but Barkley is an extremely poor example for this comparison because that example doesn't take into account the contextual factor of change in foul enforcement. Foul calls have changed dramatically in the last 25 years with that change favoring perimeter players. You are allowed far less physicality on the perimeter or guarding drives in the modern game than at any point in the 80s/90s while post play is still more or less allowed to be rough so long as you go straight up when defending.

That still doesn’t explain why Barkley’s free throw rate was so much higher in-era. If Jordan really was this terrifying force around the basket who’d draw innumerable fouls in this era it doesn’t square with Barkley being such a superior foul drawer. Unless the argument is supposed to be that in the early 90s refs actually had a quicker whistle on post players than perimeter guys which seems... highly dubious.

Some guys are just better at drawing fouls. Dirk mainly shot the hardest type of shot to draw fouls on and yet has one of the highest draw rates ever. I’m not going to assume Jordan could match Harden’s draw rate just like I won’t assume Dirk could match Barkley’s in the 80s.

The point was that Barkley's play style is nothing like either Jordan or Harden so how is his FTR relevant at all? A drive to the hoop is officiated differently than a post-up, different amounts of contact are tolerated for each. Barkley also spent far more time in the paint banging bodies than either MJ or Harden ever did. A more relevant comparison would be if you could point to other wing players in Jordan's era that attacked the paint and had a higher FTR, which would indicate if MJ wasn't #1 in that comparison in the 90s he also would not depose the #1 guy in that respect in the modern game.

I'm not arguing MJ would draw the same or greater FTs than Harden, I just thought it was weird you cherry-picked another great whose play style which drew those fouls had little in common with either of the ATG SGs being compared.

I chose Barkley because, like Jordan, he’s primarily a slasher who handles the ball and plays in transition, who volume scores and is known as a historically good finisher at the rim. Just because his ISO’s come from backing down instead of facing up doesn’t mean he’s all that dissimilar.

If you want examples of guards Magic Johnson and Kevin Johnson both have much higher draw rates than Jordan in that same era. But their play styles to me are far more dissimilar to Jordan than Barkley’s is, at least IMO.

FWIW I also consider Harden to be a very dissimilar player to Jordan. Harden, like KJ and Magic was a top of the key initiator and pick and roll operator. Jordan could do that at points but it wasn’t his primary method of attack nor where he was most successful. I think Jordan’s game is closer to Curry than Harden in the modern game.

[Leslie Forman]

So this is just another thread to discredit Jordan's legacy right?

So what are the narratives now?
"MJ didn't win a championship until boston and the lakers got old"
"If it wasn't for Pippen Jordan would be ringless"
"Jordan played against uber drivers white guys"
"Jordan played in an era that had expansion teams"
"MJ would be demar derozan in this current era"

Any other tired and boring internet narrative that i'm missing?

Even as someone who has MJ at a clear #1, all the "he'd average 50 today" stuff is exhausting and doesn't even make sense - like, do people think the other 4 guys on the floor would stop taking shots or something? Are teams scoring 150 points a game now?

Posts like this that defend those notions are by far in the minority.

[Showtime 80]

I love myth busting people who have no idea what 90's basketball was all about, specially early 90's basketball. Here's a little hint, you could get away with more during illegal defense era than the modern "pseudo zone" that you have in the current NBA specially when they don't have to worry about the stupid 3 second defensive rule. Here's a little sample of what you could get away with in the early 90's:

Watch on YouTube

;t=409s

As you can clearly see the Bad Boys are basically playing a 2-2-1 zone with guys like Laimbeer, Salley and Edwards parking their behinds in the paint not guarding anybody and basically playing free safety, this is not legal in the modern NBA. Also the perimeter defenders are basically ignoring players like Pippen, Hodges, Paxson among others standing at the 3-point playing at least 8 feet away from them with one foot in the paint waiting for the penetration thus debunking the myth that you had to sick with bad shooters at all times like glue. You also see double teaming without the ball which is something people claim to only happen now a days.

Here are three more videos of Jordan, Dominique and Westbrick dunking in their respective eras:

Watch on YouTube

;t=309s

Watch on YouTube

;t=185s

Watch on YouTube

;t=179s

Guess which players faced more physical challenges, more congested lanes and just all out hard contact driving down the lane?!? Easy answer. The NBA dumbed down the rules so AAU knuckleheads like Dumbrook and his generation could succeed and be compared favorably to past generations. The league has basically become a WWE like scheme in the last 20 years altering rules left and right to fool the viewing public into thinking that these modern posers are actually in the same league to those that came before the mid-90's. Here's Kobe, a poser himself, talking about the direction the league has headed in the last 15 years:

Watch on YouTube

;t=20s

The modern NBA (post 2004) is a sham, an altered mirage made to engineer money and followers, nothing more nothing less.

[alebaba]

Despite having better shooting in the league it does not improve spacing , thus spacing is not better in todays game ,nevermind the fact that better spacing is the number one priority on offense on EVERY single nba team.That is a very logical conclusion.It really is.In crazytown that is.

What are you talking about? better shooting = spacing. Go play in the pick game, where lane is super clog because ppl can't shoot worth a crap.

Nba players can't even guard a second year Luke and hes slow as hell compare to Jordan. No hand checking and freedom of movement made the game that much easier on the perimeter. Jordan would be even better if he play in todays league, there's no way you can stop him from going to the paint.

[MrBigShot]

Regardless, the defense he played against isn't even remotely as advantageous for the offensive player as it is in today's game.

[JN61]

The four/five out spacing and completely WIDE OPEN lanes and no hand-checking of today's game would be far more beneficial to Jordan than the illegal defenses rule. This isn't debatable. He'd average 45+ a game in today's league.

Very much true.

[toodles23]

1. Go back and look at the Lebron Cavs. They just played with that 5 out spread for most of the game. That's how a MJ team could set itself up if spacing was an issue. Its obviously not fantasy because we saw a team do that for a superstar for multiple years.

I have watched them extensively. Tristan Thompson isn’t a shooter. They had lineups with Live at Center but those were used sparingly in the eastern conference playoffs and never against the Warriors.

Love barely played at all when it mattered; he averaged 26 minutes per game in the Finals in 2016. He was effectively a bench player.

Jordan could certainly play in lineups with 4 shooters but if your goal is to win a championship it ain’t happening, at least not for big minutes.

2. Back in the day, the NBA was still a big man's game. Guys like Barkley and Malone would go into the post and get a lot of fouls. Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Jordan was a perimeter player who liked to drive. He averaged 8 or more FTA per game 9 times in his 13 years in Chicago under the hand check rules. His totals would have been significantly higher in today's era *or* players would be forced to let Jordan get a near free run at the hoop. Harden averages 13.4 FTA per game this year and I will say that Jordan was a better ball handler, more physical and quicker than Harden. What he would do today would really break the game.

Barkley in 1989 had a foul draw rate of 74%. Not only does that make Harden blush, that’s about 20% higher than Harden has ever achieved.

So if you’re going to say that Jordan’s FTR would skyrocket today, will you make the same argument for Barkley? After all PFs are way smaller today. How high could it get? 90%? Could he draw The same amount of fouls as field goal attempts? By your logic it seems possible.

Jordan isn’t a better ball handler than Harden. Harden is the best ball handler ever at his size. Jordan’s game featured a heavy diet of mid range shoots and running around screens. He was much more off-ball focused than Harden. He’d ave to complete;y change his game to achieve the foul draw rates Harden does.

It's also just not true at all that the officiating today would help MJ. At present it's definitely the easiest it's ever been to draw fouls on the perimeter and as a shooter, but to make up for it the refs don't call anywhere near the same amount of stuff around the rim as they used to; free throw rates in today's league are dramatically lower than they were in Jordan's era, in 1988 it was at 33.2% and in 2020 it's at 25.9%.

And of course, around the rim is where MJ got the vast majority of his free throws in his prime years (in the 2nd 3peat he got a lot of FTs on the perimeter with his fakes and footwork, but before 1992 or so the vast majority of his FTs came around the rim).

[Barnzy]

Michael Jordan is one of the most overrated players ever in the sense of how people hold him in such god like status compared to some players especially current players.

If you transport LeBron back to the 90's he would average 35/10/10 against the weaker competition and defense. He would also win the same or more amount of rings.

He's a superior athlete and player in most ways.

[Antinomy]

Modern spacing is a lot more advantageous to players like Jordan than the illegal defense rule could ever be.

Also for historical reference the league was barely enforcing illegal defense by the 2nd Bulls threepeat. It was officially ended in 01 but was only lightly enforced in the last few years leading up to it being removed from the rule book. This would have helped him in the 80s more than the 90s.

Jordan went on the record saying that he didn’t like playing against zone defenses.

Think about it like this: An ISO scorer like Jordan was highly suited to play in an era where you either had to guard him straight up or send a hard double at him. Keep in mind that you weren’t allowed to just sag off guys like Grant or Rodman if they just so happened to wander around the 3 point line.

Imagine if Durant, for example, was allowed to play under those rules. He’d be unbelievably unstoppable.

[Antinomy]

I agree with you OP. Good luck to you though....

I didn’t wanna be the one to say it.

[70sFan]

Modern spacing is a lot more advantageous to players like Jordan than the illegal defense rule could ever be.

Also for historical reference the league was barely enforcing illegal defense by the 2nd Bulls threepeat. It was officially ended in 01 but was only lightly enforced in the last few years leading up to it being removed from the rule book. This would have helped him in the 80s more than the 90s.

Jordan went on the record saying that he didn’t like playing against zone defenses.

Think about it like this: An ISO scorer like Jordan was highly suited to play in an era where you either had to guard him straight up or send a hard double at him. Keep in mind that you weren’t allowed to just sag off guys like Grant or Rodman if they just so happened to wander around the 3 point line.

Imagine if Durant, for example, was allowed to play under those rules. He’d be unbelievably unstoppable.

When Rodman was around the three point line, his defender had to be around FT line. That's still sagging off. Don't exaggarate illegal defense, nobody run above three point line behind Rodman.

[Phreak50]

Add in the Harden "you can't look at me funny without having a foul called" reffing and Jordan today would be a cheat code.

Technically yes x100.

But it all depends how the refs call it per player.

LeBron gets hacked on drives ten times harder than Harden's phantom calls and rarely gets those free throws.