How the illegal defense rule made it easier for Jordan to score in the ‘90s

Joao Saraiva · Post #61 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:15 pm

Soem rules made it easier, some made it harder. He deserves his credit and I think Jordan would be ultra great in any era. As the other all time greats. Their work ethic and game comprehension would always make them great.

Slightly better, slightly worse... but overall among the greatest players in the league.

IllMagic04 · Post #62 » by **IllMagic04** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:44 pm

The video the OP posted is facts. Yet another reason you can't compare eras.

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jehosafats · Post #63 » by **jehosafats** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:03 pm

MJ would thrive in any system, but there’s no mistaking the illegal defense rule embellished his numbers.

Lockdown504090 · Post #64 » by **Lockdown504090** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:04 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
The4thHorseman wrote:How the hell are those highlighted above, helping players score absurd amounts of points???

I would think that moving the 3pt line closer for 3yrs (like Stern did from 94-97) is by far the biggest change ever made to help players score more. Then once players got used to it by shooting more 3's, he probably figured that just move it back where it was and they'll start hitting from there eventually.

increased pace

no

Not when it comes to what I highlighted above, unless you have some factual evidence that the expanded flagrant foul rules makes the pace faster which helps players score much more easily.

if taking less hard hits equating to having more energy throughout a season isnt a notorious fact idk what to tell you.

Shot Clock · Post #65 » by **Shot Clock** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:07 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Here’s an example of what the video in the OP is talking about.

MJ gets shut down 1-on-1 by Muggsy Bogues (LOL), but gets bailed out by illegal defense because Charlotte’s big man sagged off his defender to meet him at the rim.

‘90s defense is a joke, in addition to fact that most of the players look like garbarge men compared to today’s players.

And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Johnny Bball · Post #66 » by **Johnny Bball** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:27 pm

Shot Clock wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Here’s an example of what the video in the OP is talking about.

MJ gets shut down 1-on-1 by Muggsy Bogues (LOL), but gets bailed out by illegal defense because Charlotte’s big man sagged off his defender to meet him at the rim.

‘90s defense is a joke, in addition to fact that most of the players look like garbarge men compared to today’s players.

And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Mugsy fouls him for 4 seconds straight under today's rules.... but nah let's ignore that.

sunsbg · Post #67 » by **sunsbg** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:51 pm

There are two eras in basketball - pre-Ginobilli and post-Ginobilli. :lol:

Pre-Ginobilli - players don't flop, drawing fouls is not a primary skill, stat-padding doesn't exist.

Post-Ginobilli - all of the above.

I'm half-joking here.

Rawbo619 · Post #68 » by **Rawbo619** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:38 pm

Barnzy wrote:Michael Jordan is one of the most overrated players ever in the sense of how people hold him in such god like status compared to some players especially current players.

If you transport LeBron back to the 90's he would average 35/10/10 against the weaker competition and defense. He would also win the same or more amount of rings.

He's a superior athlete and player in most ways.

You best be at least in your 30s or you have no say in the matter.

maradro · Post #69 » by **maradro** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:57 pm

sunsbg wrote:There are two eras in basketball - pre-Ginobilli and post-Ginobilli.

Pre-Ginobilli - players don't flop, drawing fouls is not a primary skill, stat-padding doesn't exist.

Post-Ginobilli - all of the above.

I'm half-joking here.

https://www.si.com/vault/1963/12/09/595084/smart-moves-by-a-master-of-deception

Joking or not, can you show me a single instance of manu ginobili stat padding? He has an argument for being the player who most sacrificed his numbers in history

sunsbg · Post #70 » by **sunsbg** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:12 pm

maradro wrote:
sunsbg wrote:There are two eras in basketball - pre-Ginobilli and post-Ginobilli.

Pre-Ginobilli - players don't flop, drawing fouls is not a primary skill, stat-padding doesn't exist.

Post-Ginobilli - all of the above.

I'm half-joking here.

https://www.si.com/vault/1963/12/09/595084/smart-moves-by-a-master-of-deception

Joking or not, can you show me a single instance of manu ginobili stat padding? He has an argument for being the player who most sacrificed his numbers in history

Stat-padding - no, but they certainly introduced anti-flopping rules mainly because of his antics. Now flopping is a normal thing, even a skill, players are considered smart for doing it.

https://official.nba.com/explanation-of-anti-flopping-rule/

"For example, a player will be considered to have committed a “flop” if he falls to the floor following minimal contact or lunges in a direction different from the direction of the contact."

Watching Harden/Luka you know this rule is not in the book now. :lol:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1406922-5-ways-the-anti-flopping-rule-will-help-the-nba#slide0

Say what you want about 90s, but the game back then had a more natural feeling. Even the ASG was still a real game compared to the BS-show nowadays.

Greed · Post #71 » by **Greed** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:33 pm

Shot Clock wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Here’s an example of what the video in the OP is talking about.

MJ gets shut down 1-on-1 by Muggsy Bogues (LOL), but gets bailed out by illegal defense because Charlotte’s big man sagged off his defender to meet him at the rim.

‘90s defense is a joke, in addition to fact that most of the players look like garbarge men compared to today’s players.

And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Apparently people don't understand that Defensive 3 Seconds literally IS illegal defense

https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/defensive-three-second-violation.aspx

Shot Clock · Post #72 » by **Shot Clock** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:25 pm

Greed wrote:
Shot Clock wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Here’s an example of what the video in the OP is talking about.

MJ gets shut down 1-on-1 by Muggsy Bogues (LOL), but gets bailed out by illegal defense because Charlotte’s big man sagged off his defender to meet him at the rim.

‘90s defense is a joke, in addition to fact that most of the players look like garbarge men compared to today’s players.

And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Apparently people don't understand that Defensive 3 Seconds literally IS illegal defense

https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/defensive-three-second-violation.aspx

Well it's what replaced the illegal D we are talking about. It was introduced to prevent pure zones being played and open up the lane. In this play he is in violation in either era.

Sprewell4Three · Post #73 » by **Sprewell4Three** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:30 pm

MJ might have been able to get past the first defender but more times then not there another was a defender waiting for him at the rim. This did not happen 100% of the time , obviously. Compare that to Harden where he gets past one defender and usually has an open lane into the basket unimpeded. I just want to see how good Harden would be having to try to use dexterity in the air and get past a shot blocker like Jordan.

sikma42 · Post #74 » by **sikma42** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:33 pm

Jordan would be equally dominant in either era. But there are certain players more suited for today and vice versa. For example, Nash wouldnt be as good back them.

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sikma42 · Post #75 » by **sikma42** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:36 pm

He gets doubled on isolations 25 feet from the basket. That step back 3 is getting buckets regardless of era...handchecking is a factor but Harden has also mastered the offensive shoulder check so I think hed be ready.

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Sprewell4Three · Post #76 » by **Sprewell4Three** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:44 pm

sikma42 wrote:He gets doubled on isolations 25 feet from the basket. That step back 3 is getting buckets regardless of era...handchecking is a factor but Harden has also mastered the offensive shoulder check so I think hed be ready.

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So you think it would be easier for him to bomb 3 pointers with hand checking then without? If there was hand checking, Harden would have to develop some kind of back to the basket game. Right now Harden is playing face up basketball and is allowed to show his great handles. Some people like that he's able to display those handles , some people dont.

And for the most part teams play Harden straight up, here and there you see a double team thrown at him.

Ainosterhaspie · Post #77 » by **Ainosterhaspie** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:05 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
Shot Clock wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Here’s an example of what the video in the OP is talking about.

MJ gets shut down 1-on-1 by Muggsy Bogues (LOL), but gets bailed out by illegal defense because Charlotte’s big man sagged off his defender to meet him at the rim.

‘90s defense is a joke, in addition to fact that most of the players look like garbarge men compared to today’s players.

And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Mugsy fouls him for 4 seconds straight under today's rules.... but nah let's ignore that.

Nothing there would be called today. Do you even watch the game?

Johnny Bball · Post #78 » by **Johnny Bball** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:07 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Shot Clock wrote:
And if he got whistled for 3 in the key today how would that be different?

Mugsy fouls him for 4 seconds straight under today's rules.... but nah let's ignore that.

Nothing there would be called today. Do you even watch the game?

He hand checks him the entire time above the foul line... at least we know how old you are by what you don't know, which is not very. Lucky you.

I could explain the difference when and where you can sill legally hand check so you learn something, but nah.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #79 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:13 pm

A lot of people lately on here want to discredit MJ.

Wonder why.

Ainosterhaspie · Post #80 » by **Ainosterhaspie** » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:16 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Mugsy fouls him for 4 seconds straight under today's rules.... but nah let's ignore that.

Nothing there would be called today. Do you even watch the game?

He hand checks him the entire time above the foul line... at least we know how old you are, which is not very. Lucky you.

And? They rarely call that today. Like I said, you obviously don't watch the game.

https://youtu.be/dX-aL7IKBG8
https://youtu.be/1O4iZ26QDWU

Guys can hand check as much as they want today when a guy has his back to the basket. When he faces up, they better be careful, not because a hand check will be called, but because offensive players will hit them with a rip through or quick shot for the hack foul.

And he's not handchecking the whole time. He's using his forearm a significant portion of the time which makes sense because when this clip happened the NBA had already "banned" handchecking twice. I remember the second ban, because when we played pickup games at high school, it was suddenly a big deal that year that we couldn't handcheck (even though I don't remember anyone handchecking before that) so guys would lean on you with the forearm which was legal and is what boghes is doing there.

Yes in 2004 the NBA "banned" handchecking a third time, but like the two bans before that, it really didn't stop handchecking for very long. It is alive and well in the modern game.