Regular Season Game 28: Orlando Magic (12-15) at Denver Nuggets (17-8) - 9pm ET

[ezzzp]

Jrue Holiday will fix everything.

Nope...all he'll do is take ball out of Fultz hands and is a very inefficient volume scorer on a bad team...except now he'll be surrounded by even less 3PT shooting

[ezzzp]

the man had 20 points 7 rebounds 5 Assists 1 block.....AG went 4-14 but no one is saying anything about him......Vuc can't hit nothing.....vuc so soft.....vuc this....vuc that.....but AG is a whole brick out here but....crickets....just keep the same energy for every player when it's warranted

AG is probably the guy that plays the most that holds the team back the most. He was also terrible in that 4th quarter in Utah. It's time to move on from AG.

We really can't outlast how terrible he is. If ownership and management wanna make the playoffs. He's gotta go as soon as possible. Can't put yourself in hole until February. Need to move on from him now.

While I agree that Aaron Gordon is the source of a lot of the offensive issues (even more than people want to admit); from a trade value perspective its better to wait until this summer.

1 We don't need to cash in AG unless he brings back something that raises ceiling of roster, not raises the floor. DeRozan and Holiday are raising the floor type trades.

2 Mid season trades rarely work for anyone.

3 Because there is such a low amount of available cap space this summer that means the trade market is very likely to be how teams will look to make roster changes.

I don't want the FO to use up our key asset(s) prematurely just to win a couple more games. The Magic are a .500 range team / a 7-8th seed range depending on how bad competition continues to be. Its doubtful that changes much with anything Aaron Gordon nets midseason (or with his value at all time low).

As long as the current floor doesn't totally fall apart (which it hasn't), there is no need to make hasty moves...the goal should be to keep JI, Fultz and Bamba developing within this competitive (toward playoff) context...they are the ceiling.

[ezzzp]

I absolutely don't think the Magic are going to do this, but I would *strongly* start shopping Vucevic for the best available combo of assets/young talent.

This team just has no real future as presently constructed.

the man had 20 points 7 rebounds 5 Assists 1 block.....AG went 4-14 but no one is saying anything about him......Vuc can't hit nothing.....vuc so soft.....vuc this....vuc that.....but AG is a whole brick out here but....crickets....just keep the same energy for every player when it's warranted

[basketballRob]

Evan is on a bad run. I don't think it has to do with Vuc. Just a rough patch

But we need him. We won't beat bad teams without him playing well...let alone good teams

Like I said before: I don't have an issue with Vuc really. But how can you see Evan's transcendent uptick when Vuc was out and his insane nosedive into the dumpster with Vuc back and not immediately think it has something (not all) to do with Vuc? -30 might be the worst +/- of our season.

We played some bad defenses

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

We had Tobias and Dipo but chose Vuc and Evan when we could have just kept them all.

That's not what happened AT ALL.

We had Tobias and Oladipo, but chose Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja.

Oladipo was traded because he was a bad fit with Elfrid Payton and Aaron Gordon, as all three were poor shooters.

Mario Hezonja was Hennigan's much hyped prize pick as THE player that would be the #1 option on-ball guy...that was Oladipo's role. Fournier was NEVER EVER in consideration as the future #1 option on-ball player.

When the Oladipo trade happened, they didn't select Fournier over Oladipo, they chose Hezonja over Oladipo. Fournier was just a role player who could play either SG/SF alongside any PG/Wing combination or as 6th man off bench.

Tobias Harris was traded to: (1) clear path for Aaron Gordon (2) along with Frye salary dump to clear cap space to chase 3 max level free agents that summer...ended up with Biyombo, Jeff Green and DJ

[JF5]

I don't know why everyone is surprised that any of this happening. The only shocking thing is how bad the discrepancy with losses with good teams vs. wins against bad. I've never seen this before...

[jezzerinho]

That Game was not lost on the court but in the minds of the ORL players. Not, most will agree, for the first time.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Evan is on a bad run. I don't think it has to do with Vuc. Just a rough patch

But we need him. We won't beat bad teams without him playing well...let alone good teams

Like I said before: I don't have an issue with Vuc really. But how can you see Evan's transcendent uptick when Vuc was out and his insane nosedive into the dumpster with Vuc back and not immediately think it has something (not all) to do with Vuc? -30 might be the worst +/- of our season.

Fournier was shooting the ball at unsustainable levels. Niks physical presence on the court has nothing to do with Fournier missing those same open shots, especially since hes played really well with Vuc in multiple seasons. His fall to normalcy was expected.

[GameOver25]

I don't know why everyone is surprised that any of this happening. The only shocking thing is how bad the discrepancy with losses with good teams vs. wins against bad. I've never seen this before...

I agree. It's like a full blown mediocrity virus has taken hold of this team with no remedy.

[ezzzp]

Denver is a good team - I hope they win the west. Built through drafting just like we have to do. They're basically what we strive to be but in the west.

The big difference is that Denver had Masai Ujiri as their GM so they refused to tank. Even limited by post Melo-drama fall out and Gallinari injuries Denver refused to bottom out.

Masai and owners instead invested heavily into scouting and development staff; and maintaining an intentionally competitive roster. That has paid off. Utah did something similar after Deron Williams forced his way out.

Masai was then famously poached by Toronto, and he immediately brought in Jeff Weltman as his main advisor. Together, they created a similarly successful scouting and player development program that has continuously found quality players everywhere in the draft and non-NBA teams.

Weltman and Hammond are from same tree as Masai (worked with and for each other in past). Its why I feel good about their paced but very methodical approach.

[ezzzp]

I don't know why everyone is surprised that any of this happening. The only shocking thing is how bad the discrepancy with losses with good teams vs. wins against bad. I've never seen this before...

That discrepancy has more to do with the amount of teams below .500 than anything about the Magic...prior to this road trip, 18 of 30 teams were below .500

That's the shocking anomaly. Just the other day, Woj was talking about how many teams are in the middle ground - that despite their record still have path to playoffs, 2nd round and beyond...records that in past would have been unsurmountable to reach those tiers.

Even now, the Magic are in the playoffs, two games up in the loss column to 9th seed Charlotte

[thelead]

We had Tobias and Dipo but chose Vuc and Evan when we could have just kept them all.

That's not what happened AT ALL.

We had Tobias and Oladipo, but chose Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja.

Oladipo was traded because he was a bad fit with Elfrid Payton and Aaron Gordon, as all three were poor shooters.

Mario Hezonja was Hennigan's much hyped prize pick as THE player that would be the #1 option on-ball guy...that was Oladipo's role. Fournier was NEVER EVER in consideration as the future #1 option on-ball player.

When the Oladipo trade happened, they didn't select Fournier over Oladipo, they chose Hezonja over Oladipo. Fournier was just a role player who could play either SG/SF alongside any PG/Wing combination or as 6th man off bench.

Tobias Harris was traded to: (1) clear path for Aaron Gordon (2) along with Frye salary dump to clear cap space to chase 3 max level free agents that summer...ended up with Biyombo, Jeff Green and DJ

That is all irrelevant. We had good, young players that played well here and moved on from them to foolishly accelerate a playoff push (that didn’t happen anyway) when we didn’t have to.

[ezzzp]

We had Tobias and Dipo but chose Vuc and Evan when we could have just kept them all.

That's not what happened AT ALL.

We had Tobias and Oladipo, but chose Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja.

Oladipo was traded because he was a bad fit with Elfrid Payton and Aaron Gordon, as all three were poor shooters.

Mario Hezonja was Hennigan's much hyped prize pick as THE player that would be the #1 option on-ball guy...that was Oladipo's role. Fournier was NEVER EVER in consideration as the future #1 option on-ball player.

When the Oladipo trade happened, they didn't select Fournier over Oladipo, they chose Hezonja over Oladipo. Fournier was just a role player who could play either SG/SF alongside any PG/Wing combination or as 6th man off bench.

Tobias Harris was traded to: (1) clear path for Aaron Gordon (2) along with Frye salary dump to clear cap space to chase 3 max level free agents that summer...ended up with Biyombo, Jeff Green and DJ

That is all irrelevant. We had good, young players that played well here and moved on from them to foolishly accelerate a playoff push (that didn’t happen anyway) when we didn’t have to.

No, its only irrelevant to you. It's not irrelevant to those that want to maintain the narrative closer to the truth. That comment was trying to spin the history in order to place the blame on Fournier and Vucevic solely to push a very biased agenda.

The Hennigan FO failed because from day one their strategy was based on a foundation of recklessness...their attempts to game the rebuild process failed, and their attempts to game free agency failed. All surface and hype with no substance to actually sell.

[Bensational]

I absolutely don't think the Magic are going to do this, but I would *strongly* start shopping Vucevic for the best available combo of assets/young talent.

This team just has no real future as presently constructed.

the man had 20 points 7 rebounds 5 Assists 1 block.....AG went 4-14 but no one is saying anything about him......Vuc can't hit nothing.....vuc so soft.....vuc this....vuc that.....but AG is a whole brick out here but....crickets....just keep the same energy for every player when it's warranted

All we have heard this season is about how bad AG has been. When the team was doing the same job without Vuc as they were with him, we were told Vuc would make them even better. He's returned and made little if not zero difference to the results of when we played without him.

An upgrade on AG would be great, but so would an upgrade on the player who's supposed to be our best player. We would most likely need to package the two of them to have a chance of affording any disgruntled stars that want out in the near future. Or we have to trade for diamond in the rough options. Either way, not being clogged up with expensive long-term contracts would be better, too.

[ezzzp]

That Game was not lost on the court but in the minds of the ORL players. Not, most will agree, for the first time.

I don't know...a 2nd night of a road back to back heading into altitude conditions is usually a scheduled loss - even for top teams.

The Magic came out strong but lost steam as the game went on. Denver, who had been waiting for them at home were rested, turned up their fresh legged defensive intensity in the second half vs fatigued team. To top it off, the Magic lost key player in JI early in 3Q.

[Popsicle1228]

We had Tobias and Dipo but chose Vuc and Evan when we could have just kept them all.

That's not what happened AT ALL.

We had Tobias and Oladipo, but chose Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja.

Oladipo was traded because he was a bad fit with Elfrid Payton and Aaron Gordon, as all three were poor shooters.

Mario Hezonja was Hennigan's much hyped prize pick as THE player that would be the #1 option on-ball guy...that was Oladipo's role. Fournier was NEVER EVER in consideration as the future #1 option on-ball player.

When the Oladipo trade happened, they didn't select Fournier over Oladipo, they chose Hezonja over Oladipo. Fournier was just a role player who could play either SG/SF alongside any PG/Wing combination or as 6th man off bench.

Tobias Harris was traded to: (1) clear path for Aaron Gordon (2) along with Frye salary dump to clear cap space to chase 3 max level free agents that summer...ended up with Biyombo, Jeff Green and DJ

That is all irrelevant. We had good, young players that played well here and moved on from them to foolishly accelerate a playoff push (that didn’t happen anyway) when we didn’t have to.

If the history is irrelevant, why make your original comment that management chose specific players over others to begin with?

[SOUL]

That debate kinda sucks for both sides.

We did NOT need to move on from Oladipo or Payton at that point because they were both young and had years left on their contract. We decided that Oladipo would never really develop a three point shot for some reason, but neither HAD to be moved.. they actually played pretty well together.

We did not even need to move on from Tobias besides having too many young mouths to feed. There could've easily been a SF/PF dynamic with Tobias and Gordon. The move was to appease Skiles because we wanted more vets.

The big thing WAS that we invested a 5th pick in Hezonja and Fournier looked like a 2 and Oladipo didn't quite look like a PG, so there was a logjam there, but still, we decided to trade Oladipo and STILL not develop Hezonja at all.

So yeah, people are making it out to be like all of these guys could not co-exist when we literally could've ran a Payton/Oladipo/Tobias/AG/Vuc lineup with Hezonja working his way into the rotation as 6th man or eventual starter if we moved on from Oladipo/Payton/Fournier, but our coaches lacked any sort of imagination and we need to give 20-30 mins to Jeff Green and Ben Gordon and Willie Green etc.

[SOUL]

And we weren't moving on from Vuc, he was showing a lot of promise around that 19 ppg season, so I don't get why people would be surprised there either.

I just always roll my eyes at that debate where we HAD to choose and like pointing fingers @ Oladipo, Payton, Tobias, Vuc, Fournier, Hezonja.. NOBODY HAD TO BE MOVED! We went on a Hinkie-esque young player rebuild but our front office were at odds about how to rebuild and we decided to "cash in" way too early.. FFS we added a first round pick WITH Oladipo when a few years later Oladipo became a big piece to get Paul George. Same with Tobias.. Brandon **** Jennings and Ersan? Give me a break.

None of those guys had to be moved. The only potential issue we had was with Oladipo/Hezonja/Fournier playing similar positions but even then, it's not like Hezonja had to start or anything seeing as we decided not to play him much even after moving guys.

[ezzzp]

the man had 20 points 7 rebounds 5 Assists 1 block.....AG went 4-14 but no one is saying anything about him......Vuc can't hit nothing.....vuc so soft.....vuc this....vuc that.....but AG is a whole brick out here but....crickets....just keep the same energy for every player when it's warranted

All we have heard this season is about how bad AG has been. When the team was doing the same job without Vuc as they were with him, we were told Vuc would make them even better. He's returned and made little if not zero difference to the results of when we played without him.

An upgrade on AG would be great, but so would an upgrade on the player who's supposed to be our best player. We would most likely need to package the two of them to have a chance of affording any disgruntled stars that want out in the near future. Or we have to trade for diamond in the rough options. Either way, not being clogged up with expensive long-term contracts would be better, too.

Eh...AG has always been an ineffective offensive player being gifted volume and role. He has just been given very generous leeway based on potential, not for actual production or effectiveness. Last year he was arguably the biggest flaw in Magic's offense, and that's with Fournier career worst shooting season. This year its pretty much the same - except the glare of the new toy gloss isn't there to obscure clarity.

...but yea, lets blame a player that literally sat for almost a month for not instantly being the savior on a road back to back... at altitude no less...and lets forget that he put up 20p/7r/5a/1blk last night while defending one of best offensive C's in NBA and vs one of best PG/C attacks in NBA playing at home on fresh legs.

[MagicStarwipe]

Yeah, I'm not having THAT debate for the 10 millionth time. Enjoy guys