Regular Season Game 28: Orlando Magic (12-15) at Denver Nuggets (17-8) - 9pm ET

[VFX]

I don’t really care who it is at this point as long as it’s not Isaac or Fultz. This team has a definite ceiling if a trade isn’t made.

[ezzzp]

That debate kinda sucks for both sides.

We did NOT need to move on from Oladipo or Payton at that point because they were both young and had years left on their contract. We decided that Oladipo would never really develop a three point shot for some reason, but neither HAD to be moved.. they actually played pretty well together.

We did not even need to move on from Tobias besides having too many young mouths to feed. There could've easily been a SF/PF dynamic with Tobias and Gordon. The move was to appease Skiles because we wanted more vets.

The big thing WAS that we invested a 5th pick in Hezonja and Fournier looked like a 2 and Oladipo didn't quite look like a PG, so there was a logjam there, but still, we decided to trade Oladipo and STILL not develop Hezonja at all.

So yeah, people are making it out to be like all of these guys could not co-exist when we literally could've ran a Payton/Oladipo/Tobias/AG/Vuc lineup with Hezonja working his way into the rotation as 6th man or eventual starter if we moved on from Oladipo/Payton/Fournier, but our coaches lacked any sort of imagination and we need to give 20-30 mins to Jeff Green and Ben Gordon and Willie Green etc.

You are waaaay downplaying the "too many young mouths to feed" part of the equation. Victor Oladipo literally told the world on Woj interview that was the biggest problem in Orlando and why development was an issue there.

Oladipo also said there was literally no one to guide him on basic NBA day-to-day life or how to even train correctly.

You are also downplaying the very real luxury tax issues that would have faced the Magic if they kept everyone.

Those aren't surprises though, they are two of the biggest flaws in tank strategy and what almost always makes them fail. Anyone can lose games on purpose, it takes an elite team infrastructure to make it work.

Alex Martins hired a bargain bin inexperienced GM (youngest ever at time) who sold him a reckless "youth movement" strategy based on cheating the draft. That inexperience hired a head coach with ZERO head coaching experience EVER to lead a youth focussed rebuild ...AND because tank rebuilds require top to bottom fiscal cutbacks to infrastructure, the Magic stripped down crucial player development infrastructure to bare minimum...LMAO you can't make this s**t up.

Oladipo was never supposed to be a PG. Even when they played him there as rookie everyone in organization said it was to help him develop him. Fournier also played both SG/SF since day one in Magic uniform, and even had his breakout 15-16 season playing mostly as SF.

Also, Hezonja WAS given a chance to develop - he just sucked. That narrative that he wasn't given a chance to develop is nonsense. Skiles played him 79 games 18mpg with a 17.9 USG while being one of worst defenders I've ever seen in NBA. When Vogel arrived, he put the ball in his hands as primary BH on 2nd unit, Mario just s**t the bed in a major way and kept doing it over and over...eventually Vogel had no choice but to take him out of the rotation. It was the same story in NY and now in Portland...low IQ, poor D, poor shooter, all posture.

[Knightro]

Denver is a good team - I hope they win the west. Built through drafting just like we have to do. They're basically what we strive to be but in the west.

The big difference is that Denver had Masai Ujiri as their GM so they refused to tank. Even limited by post Melo-drama fall out and Gallinari injuries Denver refused to bottom out.

Masai and owners instead invested heavily into scouting and development staff; and maintaining an intentionally competitive roster. That has paid off. Utah did something similar after Deron Williams forced his way out.

Masai was then famously poached by Toronto, and he immediately brought in Jeff Weltman as his main advisor. Together, they created a similarly successful scouting and player development program that has continuously found quality players everywhere in the draft and non-NBA teams.

Weltman and Hammond are from same tree as Masai (worked with and for each other in past). Its why I feel good about their paced but very methodical approach.

You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?

I'm all for putting an emphasis on scouting and player development. But deep down you know as well as I know that none of that would have mattered that much for the Nuggets had they not completely lucked their way into a superstar.

[ezzzp]

Denver is a good team - I hope they win the west. Built through drafting just like we have to do. They're basically what we strive to be but in the west.

The big difference is that Denver had Masai Ujiri as their GM so they refused to tank. Even limited by post Melo-drama fall out and Gallinari injuries Denver refused to bottom out.

Masai and owners instead invested heavily into scouting and development staff; and maintaining an intentionally competitive roster. That has paid off. Utah did something similar after Deron Williams forced his way out.

Masai was then famously poached by Toronto, and he immediately brought in Jeff Weltman as his main advisor. Together, they created a similarly successful scouting and player development program that has continuously found quality players everywhere in the draft and non-NBA teams.

Weltman and Hammond are from same tree as Masai (worked with and for each other in past). Its why I feel good about their paced but very methodical approach.

You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?

I'm all for putting an emphasis on scouting and player development. But deep down you know as well as I know that none of that would have mattered that much for the Nuggets had they not completely lucked their way into a superstar.

No I do not "deep down" think that.

If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history.

As with any draft there is some luck to it, but that's not all there is. They had a profile of how they like to draft and implement excellent scouting in those decisions. The same draft day when they picked Jokic in 2nd round, they also traded down to grab Garry Harris at #16 and Nurkic at #19. Then when decision on who to keep, despite media uproar they chose to Jokic over Nurkic.

Also, they play in the West, that's the conference were they won 46 games and missed the playoffs 2 years ago. Prior to that, injuries played a big role. That didn't stop them from finding guys like Jamal Murray at 7 and Malik Beasley at 19, or finding Will Barton rotting on Portland bench.

[tiderulz]

That debate kinda sucks for both sides.

We did NOT need to move on from Oladipo or Payton at that point because they were both young and had years left on their contract. We decided that Oladipo would never really develop a three point shot for some reason, but neither HAD to be moved.. they actually played pretty well together.

We did not even need to move on from Tobias besides having too many young mouths to feed. There could've easily been a SF/PF dynamic with Tobias and Gordon. The move was to appease Skiles because we wanted more vets.

The big thing WAS that we invested a 5th pick in Hezonja and Fournier looked like a 2 and Oladipo didn't quite look like a PG, so there was a logjam there, but still, we decided to trade Oladipo and STILL not develop Hezonja at all.

So yeah, people are making it out to be like all of these guys could not co-exist when we literally could've ran a Payton/Oladipo/Tobias/AG/Vuc lineup with Hezonja working his way into the rotation as 6th man or eventual starter if we moved on from Oladipo/Payton/Fournier, but our coaches lacked any sort of imagination and we need to give 20-30 mins to Jeff Green and Ben Gordon and Willie Green etc.

You are waaaay downplaying the "too many young mouths to feed" part of the equation. Victor Oladipo literally told the world on Woj interview that was the biggest problem in Orlando and why development was an issue there.

Oladipo also said there was literally no one to guide him on basic NBA day-to-day life or how to even train correctly.

You are also downplaying the very real luxury tax issues that would have faced the Magic if they kept everyone.

Those aren't surprises though, they are two of the biggest flaws in tank strategy and what almost always makes them fail. Anyone can lose games on purpose, it takes an elite team infrastructure to make it work.

Alex Martins hired a bargain bin inexperienced GM (youngest ever at time) who sold him a reckless "youth movement" strategy based on cheating the draft. That inexperience hired a head coach with ZERO head coaching experience EVER to lead a youth focussed rebuild ...AND because tank rebuilds require top to bottom fiscal cutbacks to infrastructure, the Magic stripped down crucial player development infrastructure to bare minimum...LMAO you can't make this s**t up.

Oladipo was never supposed to be a PG. Even when they played him there as rookie everyone in organization said it was to help him develop him. Fournier also played both SG/SF since day one in Magic uniform, and even had his breakout 15-16 season playing mostly as SF.

Also, Hezonja WAS given a chance to develop - he just sucked. That narrative that he wasn't given a chance to develop is nonsense. Skiles played him 79 games 18mpg with a 17.9 USG while being one of worst defenders I've ever seen in NBA. When Vogel arrived, he put the ball in his hands as primary BH on 2nd unit, Mario just s**t the bed in a major way and kept doing it over and over...eventually Vogel had no choice but to take him out of the rotation. It was the same story in NY and now in Portland...low IQ, poor D, poor shooter, all posture.

im calling BS on that. every team has trainers, asst coaches that work with players to identify diet, strength training, day to day life. We say them do if fine with Howard. now, not creating a pecking order, i can see that. But im say BS on not having people to help Oladipo know how to live and train

[SOUL]

The thing is, these thoughts/facts etc can co-exist. Yes, there were too many mouths to feed, but we were not pressed to move anybody, especially when there was no extension/cap issue looming at that exact time.

A lot would have to be ignored to pretend like we got good value out of Oladipo when the same combo of Oladipo/pick (Sabonis) was traded for Paul George compared to Ibaka only a year later. Same with Tobias bringing us crap in return.

Franchise panicked for no reason.

Hezonja I don't think was given a fair shake early on, at least on the court. I don't know what he was or wasn't doing behind the scenes, but he would often make the same mistakes some other guys would do and get yanked for the smallest of things. It turns out he wasn't the best of players, but let's not forget that after we didn't pick up his extension, he started showing a lot of skills we hadn't seen and 90% of the forum wished that we brought him back at that point.

[Knightro]

No I do not "deep down" think that.

If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history.

As with any draft there is some luck to it, but that's not all there is. They had a profile of how they like to draft and implement excellent scouting in those decisions. The same draft day when they picked Jokic in 2nd round, they also traded down to grab Garry Harris at #16 and Nurkic at #19. Then when decision on who to keep, despite media uproar they chose to Jokic over Nurkic.

Also, they play in the West, that's the conference were they won 46 games and missed the playoffs 2 years ago. Prior to that, injuries played a big role. That didn't stop them from finding guys like Jamal Murray at 7 and Malik Beasley at 19, or finding Will Barton rotting on Portland bench.

*Sigh*

Yes. What you said about luck IS exactly the case. You can say the exact same thing about the Bucks and Giannis. Or the Sixers and Embiid. Or the Warriors and Curry. Or the Spurs and Leonard. Or the Pacers and George. The list goes on and on and on.

Luck is a MASSIVELY HUGE factor for a lot of successful NBA franchises.

It's easy to say "just do what Milwaukee did" or "just do what Denver did", but if Giannis gets drafted 14th and Jokic gets draft 40th, both of those franchises are perennial losers right now.

An NBA franchise can do *everything* right in the rebuilding/reloading process. They can put a heavy emphasis on player development, scouting, coaching, asset accumulation and still end up with a team not capable of even sniffing the Finals simply because of bad luck. Sometimes it's a three player draft and you end up with the 4th pick. Sometimes you make the right pick and that player's career is just derailed by injuries. Sometimes you build a good team and you get unlucky that a super elite team exists within the same window as you.

Subsequently, a team can do things completely and utterly wrong and have almost none of that matter by virtue of lucking their way into a superstar. The Cavaliers won the lottery four friggin times in one decade which netted them LeBron, Kyrie and Kevin Love. A totally inept and bumbling franchise that cashed in an NBA title because of an extreme amount of luck.

And you mentioned the Nuggets winning 46 games two years ago... that only happened because they had an 11 WS, 7.1 BPM player in Jokic! If they didn't luck into him, they're nowhere close to that level.

[VFX]

The big difference is that Denver had Masai Ujiri as their GM so they refused to tank. Even limited by post Melo-drama fall out and Gallinari injuries Denver refused to bottom out.

Masai and owners instead invested heavily into scouting and development staff; and maintaining an intentionally competitive roster. That has paid off. Utah did something similar after Deron Williams forced his way out.

Masai was then famously poached by Toronto, and he immediately brought in Jeff Weltman as his main advisor. Together, they created a similarly successful scouting and player development program that has continuously found quality players everywhere in the draft and non-NBA teams.

Weltman and Hammond are from same tree as Masai (worked with and for each other in past). Its why I feel good about their paced but very methodical approach.

You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?

I'm all for putting an emphasis on scouting and player development. But deep down you know as well as I know that none of that would have mattered that much for the Nuggets had they not completely lucked their way into a superstar.

No I do not "deep down" think that.

If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history.

As with any draft there is some luck to it, but that's not all there is. They had a profile of how they like to draft and implement excellent scouting in those decisions. The same draft day when they picked Jokic in 2nd round, they also traded down to grab Garry Harris at #16 and Nurkic at #19. Then when decision on who to keep, despite media uproar they chose to Jokic over Nurkic.

Also, they play in the West, that's the conference were they won 46 games and missed the playoffs 2 years ago. Prior to that, injuries played a big role. That didn't stop them from finding guys like Jamal Murray at 7 and Malik Beasley at 19, or finding Will Barton rotting on Portland bench.

Not really sure what your point is. You have to draft well and make good trades without limiting your options? Good to know.

Did they need to tank? No. They made options for themselves from getting a lot of it right through luck or calculated decisions. The same could be said with any team landing a top 20 superstar outside of the top 10 in the draft. Other teams had to pass on those guys.

How this relates to the Magic is that Denver built their starting lineup out of the draft with the exception of Millsap. They’ve also moved away from players that didn’t fit after only a short window of time.

[pepe1991]

Dipo said himself that there was too many young players and inner struggle.

At times ,2015-16

Hezonja 20
Gordon 20
Payton 21
Appling 23
Marble 23
Evan 23
Harris 23
Dipo 23
Napier 24
Vučević 25

This is literally copy past - minus Jrue and JJ - Pelicans situation. Their youngsters compete more between themselfs for shots and FGA than opponents.
So assuming Hennigan knew that lockerroom is boiling up he had to make a trades. He just made wrong ones.


Nuggets also did fair share of stinkers. Donovan Mitchell and Gobert were their draft picks.
They traded Donovan for Lyles.
They drafted Gobert and traded him for cash
They wasted 7th pick on Mudiay.

Also nobody drafts more Euro players than them. Just look at their draft history:
izzet Turkyilmaz ( played for my local team 2 years ago)
Sandi Bečirović
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Nikola Radičević
Llull
Jokić
Hernagomez
Čančar
Fournier

But when you know that their main scout, Rafael Juc actually lives in Europe ,it comes as no suprise why they menaged to steal guys like Jokić, Gobert, Evan. Most of above mentioned names are second round picks. It's kind a sad that Llull never played in NBA since he was one of the best Euro players for years.

They also play pace that does not suits most of the league. They play sloooooooooooooooooooooow. But have guys like Jokić and MIllsap who are well suited for half court.

[ezzzp]

im calling BS on that. every team has trainers, asst coaches that work with players to identify diet, strength training, day to day life. We say them do if fine with Howard. now, not creating a pecking order, i can see that. But im say BS on not having people to help Oladipo know how to live and train

Nope...sadly its not BS at all. Dwight Howard's development was long before Hennigan and his tank strategy, and like all tanks Hennigan's brought with it top-to-bottom fiscal cutbacks to team infrastructure:

"When Weltman came in he found a basketball operations program that was bare bones, if present at all. He was building a lot of things from the ground up." LINK

"This is the player development part of the job, and it consumes much of Bonner's schedule. The Magic had no player development program when Weltman and Hammond took over in the spring. They tapped Bonner, with her extensive experience working for the league, to reassess everything and build a program from scratch." LINK

...and Oladipo isn't the only former Magic player to say that...Moe Harkless said something similar about his days in Orlando, comically said he didn't even learn how to practice correctly until he got to Portland.

[ezzzp]

*Sigh*

Yes. What you said about luck IS exactly the case. You can say the exact same thing about the Bucks and Giannis. Or the Sixers and Embiid. Or the Warriors and Curry. Or the Spurs and Leonard. Or the Pacers and George. The list goes on and on and on.

Luck is a MASSIVELY HUGE factor for a lot of successful NBA franchises.

It's easy to say "just do what Milwaukee did" or "just do what Denver did", but if Giannis gets drafted 14th and Jokic gets draft 40th, both of those franchises are perennial losers right now.

An NBA franchise can do *everything* right in the rebuilding/reloading process. They can put a heavy emphasis on player development, scouting, coaching, asset accumulation and still end up with a team not capable of even sniffing the Finals simply because of bad luck. Sometimes it's a three player draft and you end up with the 4th pick. Sometimes you make the right pick and that player's career is just derailed by injuries. Sometimes you build a good team and you get unlucky that a super elite team exists within the same window as you.

Subsequently, a team can do things completely and utterly wrong and have almost none of that matter by virtue of lucking their way into a superstar. The Cavaliers won the lottery four friggin times in one decade which netted them LeBron, Kyrie and Kevin Love. A totally inept and bumbling franchise that cashed in an NBA title because of an extreme amount of luck.

And you mentioned the Nuggets winning 46 games two years ago... that only happened because they had an 11 WS, 7.1 BPM player in Jokic! If they didn't luck into him, they're nowhere close to that level.

SIGH...your words:

"You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?"

You brought up "LUCK" to push your agenda. Not me.

[ezzzp]

No I do not "deep down" think that.

If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history.

As with any draft there is some luck to it, but that's not all there is. They had a profile of how they like to draft and implement excellent scouting in those decisions. The same draft day when they picked Jokic in 2nd round, they also traded down to grab Garry Harris at #16 and Nurkic at #19. Then when decision on who to keep, despite media uproar they chose to Jokic over Nurkic.

Also, they play in the West, that's the conference were they won 46 games and missed the playoffs 2 years ago. Prior to that, injuries played a big role. That didn't stop them from finding guys like Jamal Murray at 7 and Malik Beasley at 19, or finding Will Barton rotting on Portland bench.

Not really sure what your point is. You have to draft well and make good trades without limiting your options? Good to know.

Did they need to tank? No. They made options for themselves from getting a lot of it right through luck or calculated decisions. The same could be said with any team landing a top 20 superstar outside of the top 10 in the draft. Other teams had to pass on those guys.

How this relates to the Magic is that Denver built their starting lineup out of the draft with the exception of Millsap. They’ve also moved away from players that didn’t fit after only a short window of time.

My point is clear: Denver didn't tank and they still found quality all over the draft and fringes of NBA. They did it though good scouting and quality player development plus sound decisions when roster decisions needed to be made...its a pretty straight forward point.

Also you can say the same thing about landing a superstar inside the top 10 in the draft. Superstars are anomalies...and those anomalies are found everywhere in the draft. The key difference is that some teams tank for half a decade in search of that anomaly and never find it. Meanwhile some franchises maintain a winning context with a quality infrastructure and culture. That allows them to maximize ALL three levers (draft-develop, free agency and trades) in their pursuit of that anomaly.

[tiderulz]

im calling BS on that. every team has trainers, asst coaches that work with players to identify diet, strength training, day to day life. We say them do if fine with Howard. now, not creating a pecking order, i can see that. But im say BS on not having people to help Oladipo know how to live and train

Nope...sadly its not BS at all. Dwight Howard's development was long before Hennigan and his tank strategy, and like all tanks Hennigan's brought with it top-to-bottom fiscal cutbacks to team infrastructure:

"When Weltman came in he found a basketball operations program that was bare bones, if present at all. He was building a lot of things from the ground up." LINK

"This is the player development part of the job, and it consumes much of Bonner's schedule. The Magic had no player development program when Weltman and Hammond took over in the spring. They tapped Bonner, with her extensive experience working for the league, to reassess everything and build a program from scratch." LINK

...and Oladipo isn't the only former Magic player to say that...Moe Harkless said something similar about his days in Orlando, comically said he didn't even learn how to practice correctly until he got to Portland.

that seems more like development of the player with basketball skills. not knowing how to work out

[Knightro]

My point is clear: Denver didn't tank and they still found quality all over the draft and fringes of NBA. They did it though good scouting and quality player development plus sound decisions when roster decisions needed to be made...its a pretty straight forward point.

Also you can say the same thing about landing a superstar inside the top 10 in the draft. Superstars are anomalies...and those anomalies are found everywhere in the draft. The key difference is that some teams tank for half a decade in search of that anomaly and never find it. Meanwhile some franchises maintain a winning context with a quality infrastructure and culture. That allows them to maximize ALL three levers (draft-develop, free agency and trades) in their pursuit of that anomaly.

The one glaring issue with what your saying is that Denver, despite maintaining a “winning” infrastructure and culture in their post Melo transition, would certainly not be a contender right now and maybe not even a playoff team at all without the historically good fortune of lucking into a top 10 NBA player with the 41st pick.

Denver without landing Jokic would basically be the Magic right now. A 6-8 seed at best.

All the stuff they did is post Melo is all well and good, and I do understand why you/anyone would prefer to remain competitive v. straight up tanking, but let’s not kid ourselves here. The Nuggets were not going to be able to move forward in a significant way without Jokic and getting a player that good that late is a once in a generation type lucky break for a franchise.

A whole heck of a lot more superstar players and all-star players are drafted in the top half of the lottery than not, ya know?

Citing like extreme good luck outliers like Jokic and Giannis and as franchises to model just doesn’t seem like a particularly wise strategy.

[Knightro]

SIGH...your words:

"You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?"

You brought up "LUCK" to push your agenda. Not me.

We may have gotten wires crossed a little bit.

Your retort was...

"If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history."

I believe that statement is the accurate. All of those teams benefitting greatly from lucky breaks.

If you do not believe that and I mistakenly attributed you as believing it based on your retort, then I apologize for getting the wires crossed.

[ezzzp]

Nope...sadly its not BS at all. Dwight Howard's development was long before Hennigan and his tank strategy, and like all tanks Hennigan's brought with it top-to-bottom fiscal cutbacks to team infrastructure:

"When Weltman came in he found a basketball operations program that was bare bones, if present at all. He was building a lot of things from the ground up." LINK

"This is the player development part of the job, and it consumes much of Bonner's schedule. The Magic had no player development program when Weltman and Hammond took over in the spring. They tapped Bonner, with her extensive experience working for the league, to reassess everything and build a program from scratch." LINK

...and Oladipo isn't the only former Magic player to say that...Moe Harkless said something similar about his days in Orlando, comically said he didn't even learn how to practice correctly until he got to Portland.

that seems more like development of the player with basketball skills. not knowing how to work out

If you want to downplay skill development as if it isn't one of the most crucial parts of young player development, go right ahead.

...AND even if you want to dismiss it as just about working out, go listen to that Woj interview + a couple other ones he gave around same time. In them VO states that he didn't learn how to properly train until he got to OKC...and in fact, he credits a lot of his improved conditioning as the big factor to his break out year.

[tiderulz]

Nope...sadly its not BS at all. Dwight Howard's development was long before Hennigan and his tank strategy, and like all tanks Hennigan's brought with it top-to-bottom fiscal cutbacks to team infrastructure:

"When Weltman came in he found a basketball operations program that was bare bones, if present at all. He was building a lot of things from the ground up." LINK

"This is the player development part of the job, and it consumes much of Bonner's schedule. The Magic had no player development program when Weltman and Hammond took over in the spring. They tapped Bonner, with her extensive experience working for the league, to reassess everything and build a program from scratch." LINK

...and Oladipo isn't the only former Magic player to say that...Moe Harkless said something similar about his days in Orlando, comically said he didn't even learn how to practice correctly until he got to Portland.

that seems more like development of the player with basketball skills. not knowing how to work out

If you want to downplay skill development as if it isn't one of the most crucial parts of young player development, go right ahead.

...AND even if you want to dismiss it as just about working out, go listen to that Woj interview + a couple other ones he gave around same time. In them VO states that he didn't learn how to properly train until he got to OKC...and in fact, he credits a lot of his improved conditioning as the big factor to his break out year.

he was 4 years and Indiana, a major basketball university, and then on an NBA team. yeah im calling BS on that. maybe he didnt "want" to workout, but he knew how and what to do. OKC seemed to put the drive in him to finally get in shape

he went to Indiana 6'3 180 and 4 years later was at 213 lbs. so yeah, he knew how to work out.
high school


college

[Knightro]

OKC seemed to put the drive in him to finally get in shape

It's also possible that getting traded (twice) was the wake up call he needed to get himself into better shape.

[ezzzp]

SIGH...your words:

"You do realize that Denver missed the playoffs five seasons in a row and would still be on the outside looking in or be a perennial 6-8 seed had they not gotten an all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent in the 2nd round, right?"

You brought up "LUCK" to push your agenda. Not me.

We may have gotten wired crossed a little bit.

Your retort was...

"If you say they wouldn't be were they are without Jokic, then same can be said about Giannis, Kawhi, Paul George etc etc etc....even 76ers getting Embiid is luck that other teams didn't risk pick with his injury history."

I believe that statement is the accurate. All of those teams benefitting greatly from lucky breaks.

If you do not believe that and I mistakenly attributed you as believing it based on your retort, then I apologize for getting the wired crossed.

My wires weren't crossed.

My comment was in response to your claim that: the only reason Denver was not a perennial 6-8 seed was because they got lucky in the draft.

My comment clearly states that "luck" is nearly always a factor.

You are the one that tried to dismiss Denver's success as different than other top teams because they just got "all-time lucky break by stumbling into a top 10 NBA talent."

[ezzzp]

that seems more like development of the player with basketball skills. not knowing how to work out

If you want to downplay skill development as if it isn't one of the most crucial parts of young player development, go right ahead.

...AND even if you want to dismiss it as just about working out, go listen to that Woj interview + a couple other ones he gave around same time. In them VO states that he didn't learn how to properly train until he got to OKC...and in fact, he credits a lot of his improved conditioning as the big factor to his break out year.

he was 4 years and Indiana, a major basketball university, and then on an NBA team. yeah im calling BS on that. maybe he didnt "want" to workout, but he knew how and what to do. OKC seemed to put the drive in him to finally get in shape

he went to Indiana 6'3 180 and 4 years later was at 213 lbs. so yeah, he knew how to work out.
high school

Spoiler:

college

Spoiler:

If you want to ignore Oladipo's words, the words of the FO who pointed to condition of team infrastructure, the words of reporters who weren't even looking for that information...go right ahead

...oh, here is picture Oladipo literally posted about how his body changed after learning how to train correctly