Game 27: Cleveland Cavaliers (6-20) @ Toronto Raptors (17-8) - 7:30 PM ET

[JonFromVA]

Don't get it twisted, Sexton still isn't a *good* defender. He's no longer an IT like liability on that end of the floor. That's important for the future of his career and he was right to put the work in. But, he's never going to be a guy who is locking the other player up. He's never going to be a player who is difficult to shoot over. Also, with most of his misses, turnovers, and/or blocked shots coming at or near the rim, he's always going to be out of play in transition scenarios.

That's pretty narrow g...he easily can become a lockdown defender esp at the 1 where you and most think he will never be good enough at due to limitations as a creator for teammates. Problem with that is he doesn't need to be a creator for others right now and so trying to create for others when they don't execute is on them. I see a far more capable floor general long term but am also fine with him keeping the ball and getting it done himself. The more he gets his chops in the better he will get and these negative opinions imo are way too soon. I guess you would have preferred a more NBA ready player, but not being one is more in line with the rebuild timeline and he has the mental fortitude to ignore the hate during that process of struggling.

You keep saying this like he has 10 assist opportunities a night and there are 8 misses. That's not, at all, what's happening. I could get into why I think Sexton will always be the guy who averages fewer assists than a normal starting PG, but the truth is that right now, he's not even looking for them until it's clear that he can't get a clean shot up. At that point, it's usually too late. I think that reality coupled with the dearth of three point attempts and conversions makes it really difficult to see how he's going to be a plus starter.

It sure doesn't look to me like Collin is seeing the floor, but to be fair, we don't actually know what the coaching staff is telling him to do out there. Rumors are that Tristan was yelling at the Coach about Collin's shot selection and last year, vets were griping that he didn't know how to play the game ... so it's certainly not hard to draw conclusions; but if he was told "to be the wolf" like Clarkson was - it wouldn't be all that surprising that he's emulating his "play style".

[LivingLegend]

That's a pretty broad generalization now though probably correct in most situations once paid and quote unquote "getting into the NBA" I mean there are a few kids who are meh defenders in college but display the motor and work ethic that clearly have the length and athleticism before they get into the NBA to be better defenders than they were before it was worked on relentlessly such as case in point Sexton .

Don't get it twisted, Sexton still isn't a *good* defender. He's no longer an IT like liability on that end of the floor. That's important for the future of his career and he was right to put the work in. But, he's never going to be a guy who is locking the other player up. He's never going to be a player who is difficult to shoot over. Also, with most of his misses, turnovers, and/or blocked shots coming at or near the rim, he's always going to be out of play in transition scenarios.

Defense is important, but under the current rules, it's much less important than offense. If Sexton never becomes elite at defense (ala say Pat Beverley), it may have more to do with his motivation to improve than his size or ability. Beverely didn't make a roster initially and played in Europe for 3 seasons.

Anyway, let's give the kids a chance to grow up before passing final judgement on them. If we actually understood how players projected from one year in college to the pro's, professional talent evaluators would be making far fewer mistakes.

Both Sexton and Garland have typical size/length for the PG position. You can't have a team of players with great length, size, and defensive resume unless you either get amazingly lucky or you are willing to give up something else.

I mean ... I really like Matisse Thybulle, but he played 4 years in the NCAA; and if he ever ends being much more than a 10/2/2 3&D player it will not be because of anything he showed us in those 4 years..

Consider this in the EC. Here are the offensive and defensive rankings of the teams the Cavs usually get smashed by. 6 of the Cavs top opponents in the East are ranked in the top 12 in the NBA defensively.

Philly- 6th DEF, 14th OFF
Orlando- 12th DEF, 25th OFF
Pacers- 7th DEF, 13th OFF
Toronto- 4th DEF, 12th OFF
Brooklyn- 14th DEF, 16th OFF

The Cavs are much better suited for a quicker turnaround if they start taking in defensive minded players who can then learn to contribute on offense. For instance a guy like Jarrett Allen in Brooklyn. He was the 22nd pick in the draft but hes made the Brooklyn defense so much better. The Cavs need to find more guys like that at the back of the 1st if they can aquire more picks for Love/TT/Clarkson

[jbk1234]

That's a pretty broad generalization now though probably correct in most situations once paid and quote unquote "getting into the NBA" I mean there are a few kids who are meh defenders in college but display the motor and work ethic that clearly have the length and athleticism before they get into the NBA to be better defenders than they were before it was worked on relentlessly such as case in point Sexton .

Don't get it twisted, Sexton still isn't a *good* defender. He's no longer an IT like liability on that end of the floor. That's important for the future of his career and he was right to put the work in. But, he's never going to be a guy who is locking the other player up. He's never going to be a player who is difficult to shoot over. Also, with most of his misses, turnovers, and/or blocked shots coming at or near the rim, he's always going to be out of play in transition scenarios.

Defense is important, but under the current rules, it's much less important than offense. If Sexton never becomes elite at defense (ala say Pat Beverley), it may have more to do with his motivation to improve than his size or ability. Beverely didn't make a roster initially and played in Europe for 3 seasons.

Anyway, let's give the kids a chance to grow up before passing final judgement on them. If we actually understood how players projected from one year in college to the pro's, professional talent evaluators would be making far fewer mistakes.

Both Sexton and Garland have typical size/length for the PG position. You can't have a team of players with great length, size, and defensive resume unless you either get amazingly lucky or you are willing to give up something else.

I mean ... I really like Matisse Thybulle, but he played 4 years in the NCAA; and if he ever ends being much more than a 10/2/2 3&D player it will not be because of anything he showed us in those 4 years..

I don't think Sexton is a PG. I think he's a SG and he's a couple inches too short on both ends of the court to play the position. Now if he played next to a guy like Ball, Simmons, or SGA, you can work around that so long as Sexton is able to shoot from 3-point range. But even that fix doesn't work if Sexton is still taking the vast majority of his shots at the rim, and it really doesn't work if the tall-enough-to-guard-twos PG type also struggles to space the floor. If the guy playing the 1 (or 2) can't shoot from three, you need very specific personnel playing the 2 (or 1), 3, and 4 positions. It could even impact who you have at the 5. If neither your SG nor PG can consistently hit outside shots, you cannot win in the NBA.

I want to see Sexton shoot more from the outside because he's clearly not a PG, and if he can't shoot from outside, that should inform the Cavs decision as to how they move forward.

[Stillwater]

Sexton is a score first pg not a off ball guard which is the norm sans a couple pass first pgs in the league at this point. He needs to focus on getting his teammates involved early to set the tempo but the org is in the business of losing.
after that he can feast off the one on one matchups and have more ops for kick outs and less clogged lanes then he does trying to attack attack attack from the jump.
imo the org is fine with him being a score first guard and drafted Garland with the idea he has the potential to be a pass first guard whenever the Cavs draft or otherwise acquire an elite off ball wing or forward that needs one. KPJ also is better on ball than off but is showing the ability to play off Garland so far.
I agree with the guards needing to shoot more from the 3 , if of course they are making the shots, but as long as they are cold as they have been so far this season, they should focus on teammate involvement early and attacking the paint after.

[JonFromVA]

Don't get it twisted, Sexton still isn't a *good* defender. He's no longer an IT like liability on that end of the floor. That's important for the future of his career and he was right to put the work in. But, he's never going to be a guy who is locking the other player up. He's never going to be a player who is difficult to shoot over. Also, with most of his misses, turnovers, and/or blocked shots coming at or near the rim, he's always going to be out of play in transition scenarios.

Defense is important, but under the current rules, it's much less important than offense. If Sexton never becomes elite at defense (ala say Pat Beverley), it may have more to do with his motivation to improve than his size or ability. Beverely didn't make a roster initially and played in Europe for 3 seasons.

Anyway, let's give the kids a chance to grow up before passing final judgement on them. If we actually understood how players projected from one year in college to the pro's, professional talent evaluators would be making far fewer mistakes.

Both Sexton and Garland have typical size/length for the PG position. You can't have a team of players with great length, size, and defensive resume unless you either get amazingly lucky or you are willing to give up something else.

I mean ... I really like Matisse Thybulle, but he played 4 years in the NCAA; and if he ever ends being much more than a 10/2/2 3&D player it will not be because of anything he showed us in those 4 years..

I don't think Sexton is a PG. I think he's a SG and he's a couple inches too short on both ends of the court to play the position. Now if he played next to a guy like Ball, Simmons, or SGA, you can work around that so long as Sexton is able to shoot from 3-point range. But even that fix doesn't work if Sexton is still taking the vast majority of his shots at the rim, and it really doesn't work if the tall-enough-to-guard-twos PG type also struggles to space the floor. If the guy playing the 1 (or 2) can't shoot from three, you need very specific personnel playing the 2 (or 1), 3, and 4 positions. It could even impact who you have at the 5. If neither your SG nor PG can consistently hit outside shots, you cannot win in the NBA.

I want to see Sexton shoot more from the outside because he's clearly not a PG, and if he can't shoot from outside, that should inform the Cavs decision as to how they move forward.

The big question isn't do we like what these players are now, but do we want to wait to see what they might become years from now?

Gotta know when you start a draft based rebuild its going to take a lot of time ... and because of that a lot of players are often on their second or third team before they do anything really useful in the league because the team that drafted them gave up or couldn't figure out how to get them progressing.

So we can all speculate how these guys will develop ... but that's all. Its way our of our hands.

[gflem]

Sure, we can speculate, but what I am looking for is growth. And yes that takes time as well but Sexton doesn't look like he has progressed. Now he is playing in a different system under different coaches, and his play improved next to Knight when he was inserted into the lineup last season. Now he is playing with Garland so that is different as well, so I can't say it is all necessarily his fault but it does look to me like the pairing of him and Garland isn't going well at all. I guess these are the growing pains we should all have known were coming, but it is painful at times to watch.

[Stillwater]

Sure, we can speculate, but what I am looking for is growth. And yes that takes time as well but Sexton doesn't look like he has progressed. Now he is playing in a different system under different coaches, and his play improved next to Knight when he was inserted into the lineup last season. Now he is playing with Garland so that is different as well, so I can't say it is all necessarily his fault but it does look to me like the pairing of him and Garland isn't going well at all. I guess these are the growing pains we should all have known were coming, but it is painful at times to watch.

I am not sure what some of you are actually watching, but Sexton has been shooting less 3's and his form is different so I am guessing somebody is expecting him to struggle while they work with him on it despite making a good % last season. That does not mean at all he hasn't progressed. Maybe he had to take a step back with his shot according to a coach.
He has ramped up his defense significantly clearly hit the gym hard this summer and is showing a whole bevy of added skills & improved mental awareness esp in transition and dominating the transition game. when he runs he is elite. once his passing improves and his teammates that can run with him actually do just that suddenly everything will make more sense because when he doesn't have to try to do it alone, defenses will have to pay more attention to a trailer than him and he can blow right by or the defender will leave the trailer open for the put back.
I don't care much for the long rebuilding process either, but this org has to be patient and so do the fans. part of the reason the Knicks are so terrible is they always try to appease a disgruntled fan base during a rebuild and are so disrespected they cannot get any good FA anymore other than rejects from other orgs that want to play there because it used to mean something.

[gflem]

I am not sure what some of you are actually watching, but Sexton has been shooting less 3's and his form is different so I am guessing somebody is expecting him to struggle while they work with him on it despite making a good % last season. That does not mean at all he hasn't progressed. Maybe he had to take a step back with his shot according to a coach.
He has ramped up his defense significantly clearly hit the gym hard this summer and is showing a whole bevy of added skills & improved mental awareness esp in transition and dominating the transition game. when he runs he is elite. once his passing improves and his teammates that can run with him actually do just that suddenly everything will make more sense because when he doesn't have to try to do it alone, defenses will have to pay more attention to a trailer than him and he can blow right by or the defender will leave the trailer open for the put back.
I don't care much for the long rebuilding process either, but this org has to be patient and so do the fans. part of the reason the Knicks are so terrible is they always try to appease a disgruntled fan base during a rebuild and are so disrespected they cannot get any good FA anymore other than rejects from other orgs that want to play there because it used to mean something.

I'm watching the same thing your'e watching. His defense is better, not great but better. He did get stronger and he does try to get around the screens better, but he absolutely had to. His speed is borderline elite, so his teammates will probably never be able to keep up, so he needs to get a better understanding of that, and being he is only 20 I think he will. You say "once his passing improves", and I agree that it probably should, but there is more to that than just wanting to. His vision and BBall IQ has to improve as well as his handle which is below average at this point for a primary ball handler. I say all of this not to tear him down, I actually like Sexton and think with his work ethic he can become a really good player, but regardless of his raw skills he still has a long way to go, and I still see the vet players on this team during games getting frustrated with his lack of vision and lack of understanding of where to go with the ball at times.
For the record, I still don't think a Garland/Sexton backcourt can work (I know they're both young) and I hope I'm wrong but I think Sexton is just a tweener guard who is a high volume scorer who doesn't have the instincts to be both an initiator when needed and a scorer when needed. To me at this point he is more of a Vinnie Johnson type of a first guard off the bench player, as a ceiling, which isn't meant to be a slam on him, just a real opinion. Hopefully he can be that type of player because it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.
Again, he is only 20 so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I just don't see the same ceiling for him as you do.