MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[miman15]

I don't know why it's even a debate. It's absurd why would anyone else have it close. it's Gianni's by a mile.

Best record in the league. stats is out of this world. Record breaking PER. Plays elite both ends. His supporting cast is really not that elite tbh, and his 2nd and 3rd best teammates have missed significant amount of games. He just demolished probably the two best teams in the West.

I mean what does Gianni's have to do.

[dygaction]

It isn't really about penalizing Giannis. It goes back to what the MVP award actually means. It doesn't exactly mean best player. Nor does it exactly mean best player on best team. The MVP is really about how you lift your team and add wins to your team. If Giannis is a little ahead of Harden on per possession impact, which appears to be the case based on the various metrics out there, but he's playing 7-8 less minutes a game, the total amount he is lifting his team could be less. Even if his team has a much better record than Harden's. It is all too easy to give full credit for team success to a team's best player. But when a team's best player is only on the floor for 31 minutes a night because his team is able to increase leads more of than not when he's off the floor, even against starting lineups, you have to question how much of that credit the best player should be getting.

LOL, I am glad the coach did not have to think this way and put Giannis on the court more. He was able to blow away most teams with 30 min production.. Bucks without him may not be able to make the playoff and with him the the first place in the league.

[dygaction]

He plays less minutes because when he's on the floor the team is so dominant they play more garbage time. So it would be ironic if you'd cast that as him being less valuable. You're asking him and in turn the team to be worse for the time he's on the floor.

This narrative needs to die, because it's false. If it becomes true (which, by the numbers, it certainly could), then it can be revived. But as long as the numbers contradict it - which they clearly do - it's just a myth.

It's true that the Bucks are dominant with Antetokounmpo on the floor. No argument there. But, by the numbers, they're more dominant with Wesley Matthews on the floor. They're also more dominant with Donte DiVencenzo on the floor. (The same is true of Harden and Ben McLemore.) And, as I stated in another post, they've been almost exactly as "dominant" as the Boston Celtics in all of the minutes when Antetokounmpo has sat: the second place team in the conference! Yes, the Bucks have dominated when he's on the floor, but it's not as though he's putting his team so far ahead that he can afford to rest a lot: that can't be true when his team continues to crush teams in the 37% of their minutes when he sits!

Still, I do have him in 1st at the moment. He's doing enough.

TL;DR It's a myth that Bucks opponents can't catch up because Antetokounmpo puts the Bucks so far ahead. The reason (most) Bucks opponents can't catch up is because they're getting outscored - by a lot, actually - even when he sits.

There's at least 2, maybe 3 games where he hasn't even seen the floor in the fourth. His on-court numbers in the fourth are low (i haven't checked exactly but I'm sure someone will start the comparisons), so I don't see how you can completely dismiss this narrative. The fact is that he plays the bulk of his minutes in the first 3 qtrs, and the bench can hold and even extend the lead in the 4th, contributing to your slightly skewed numbers above.

Again, that's because the large cushion he built with 3 quarters. Most of the time, the other team would have put on their second unit as well. Also it is a lot easier to keep a 20 pts lead than to catch from behind. Giannis is an insurance on the bench so that they can give the bench good practice opportunities.

[durvasa]

It isn't really about penalizing Giannis. It goes back to what the MVP award actually means. It doesn't exactly mean best player. Nor does it exactly mean best player on best team. The MVP is really about how you lift your team and add wins to your team. If Giannis is a little ahead of Harden on per possession impact, which appears to be the case based on the various metrics out there, but he's playing 7-8 less minutes a game, the total amount he is lifting his team could be less. Even if his team has a much better record than Harden's. It is all too easy to give full credit for team success to a team's best player. But when a team's best player is only on the floor for 31 minutes a night because his team is able to increase leads more of than not when he's off the floor, even against starting lineups, you have to question how much of that credit the best player should be getting.

LOL, I am glad the coach did not have to think this way and put Giannis on the court more. He was able to blow away most teams with 30 min production.. Bucks without him may not be able to make the playoff and with him the the first place in the league.

Coach Bud is doing a great job. What maximizes his team’s chances of winning the East and a championship need not be what maximizes Giannis’s case for winning an MVP.

[dygaction]

It isn't really about penalizing Giannis. It goes back to what the MVP award actually means. It doesn't exactly mean best player. Nor does it exactly mean best player on best team. The MVP is really about how you lift your team and add wins to your team. If Giannis is a little ahead of Harden on per possession impact, which appears to be the case based on the various metrics out there, but he's playing 7-8 less minutes a game, the total amount he is lifting his team could be less. Even if his team has a much better record than Harden's. It is all too easy to give full credit for team success to a team's best player. But when a team's best player is only on the floor for 31 minutes a night because his team is able to increase leads more of than not when he's off the floor, even against starting lineups, you have to question how much of that credit the best player should be getting.

LOL, I am glad the coach did not have to think this way and put Giannis on the court more. He was able to blow away most teams with 30 min production.. Bucks without him may not be able to make the playoff and with him the the first place in the league.

Coach Bud is doing a great job. What maximizes his team’s chances of winning the East and a championship need not be what maximizes Giannis’s case for winning an MVP.

You must not a fan of Mike Tyson as he had too many knockouts which did not let people see what would have been if they played all those rounds.

[durvasa]

LOL, I am glad the coach did not have to think this way and put Giannis on the court more. He was able to blow away most teams with 30 min production.. Bucks without him may not be able to make the playoff and with him the the first place in the league.

Coach Bud is doing a great job. What maximizes his team’s chances of winning the East and a championship need not be what maximizes Giannis’s case for winning an MVP.

You must not a fan of Mike Tyson as he had too many knockouts which did not let people see what would have been if they played all those rounds.

I like Giannis and I am a fan of his game. I'd go so far as to say he's the game's best player. I still think the Rockets rely more on Harden to be successful than the Bucks do on Giannis, and the difference in minutes kind of captures that.

[dygaction]

Coach Bud is doing a great job. What maximizes his team’s chances of winning the East and a championship need not be what maximizes Giannis’s case for winning an MVP.

You must not a fan of Mike Tyson as he had too many knockouts which did not let people see what would have been if they played all those rounds.

I like Giannis and I am a fan of his game. I'd go so far as to say he's the game's best player. I still think the Rockets rely more on Harden to be successful than the Bucks do on Giannis, and the difference in minutes kind of captures that.

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

[durvasa]

You must not a fan of Mike Tyson as he had too many knockouts which did not let people see what would have been if they played all those rounds.

I like Giannis and I am a fan of his game. I'd go so far as to say he's the game's best player. I still think the Rockets rely more on Harden to be successful than the Bucks do on Giannis, and the difference in minutes kind of captures that.

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. I don't think that's the case. The other 4 players on the Bucks do more to make that team successful compared to the other 4 players on the Rockets. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

[dygaction]

I like Giannis and I am a fan of his game. I'd go so far as to say he's the game's best player. I still think the Rockets rely more on Harden to be successful than the Bucks do on Giannis, and the difference in minutes kind of captures that.

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

[greekbuck34]

I like Giannis and I am a fan of his game. I'd go so far as to say he's the game's best player. I still think the Rockets rely more on Harden to be successful than the Bucks do on Giannis, and the difference in minutes kind of captures that.

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. I don't think that's the case. The other 4 players on the Bucks do more to make that team successful compared to the other 4 players on the Rockets. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

If Harden was playing on the Bucks the other players wouldn't do quite as much because they would constatly sit and watch him dribble ISO step back 3s. In case of a loss we would blame the wasted Hill, Mathews , Lopezes, Ersan and the other unknown bucks scrubs for the failure.

It's extremely difficult to look good on Harden's system unless you are an athletic PNR big. That's why the only time the Rockets looked scary was when CP3 was mainly running the offense 2 years ago.

[Nbabrothers]

Is Giannis the next Kawhi Leonard who will play for the Lakers one year and win a chip then leave?

[JN61]

Giannis is the most unstoppable force we’ve seen since peak Shaq. He has a strong argument for being the game’s best player.

But, for an MVP award, at what point should we start deducting from his case for his lack of minutes? He’s at less than 30 per game for the month of December. Less than 30 for the season is still in play. Shouldn’t that matter for a “most VALUABlE player“ award?

I think he probably is most deserving, honestly, but it would be strange giving an MVP to a guy who barely crosses the 30 mpg threshold.

I will 100% agree with this premise IF his production drops to like 25ppg and 8rpg. Fact is he is playing low minutes and putting up insane statistics while winning at the best rate in NBA. How about that?

[durvasa]

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. I don't think that's the case. The other 4 players on the Bucks do more to make that team successful compared to the other 4 players on the Rockets. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

If Harden was playing on the Bucks the other players wouldn't do quite as much because they would constatly sit and watch him dribble ISO step back 3s. In case of a loss we would blame the wasted Hill, Mathews , Lopezes, Ersan and the other unknown bucks scrubs for the failure.

It's extremely difficult to look good on Harden's system unless you are an athletic PNR big. That's why the only time the Rockets looked scary was when CP3 was mainly running the offense 2 years ago.

If you’re arguing that the Rockets Harden-centric system is setup in a manner that naturally makes his role more valuable to that team, and that gives Harden an advantage in MVP awards, I don’t deny it.

[Archx]

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

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[durvasa]

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

You are aware that PER us a per minute stat, right? Giannis playing significantly less minutes doesn’t make his higher PER still more impressive. His PER would more likely go down with more minutes, especially given the physicality of his game and the energy it requires him to expend.

For the sake of argument, if Giannis’s per possession contribution was identical to Harden’s, Harden played more minutes, but Giannis won more games because the rest of his teammates contributed much more than Harden’s (overall and on a per possession basis), which player is the more valuable?

[durvasa]

I could argue that if Harden could be more dominant, he may help the Rockets build a larger lead and rest more. The Mavs blow away a bunch of teams this year and Luka ended up resting the 4th. That should not be considered a negative to Luka.

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

You are aware that PER us a per minute stat, right? Giannis playing significantly less minutes doesn’t make his higher PER still more impressive. His PER would more likely go down with more minutes, especially given the physicality of his game and the energy it requires him to expend.

For the sake of argument, if Giannis’s per possession contribution was identical to Harden’s, Harden played more minutes, but Giannis won more games because the rest of his teammates contributed much more than Harden’s (overall and on a per possession basis), which player is the more valuable?

[Sign5]

Doncic being 2nd in rgm poll confirms that he has Kobe/Lebron tier stans. Crazy because his nba career literally just started.

[TheProdigy]

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

You are aware that PER us a per minute stat, right? Giannis playing significantly less minutes doesn’t make his higher PER still more impressive. His PER would more likely go down with more minutes, especially given the physicality of his game and the energy it requires him to expend.

For the sake of argument, if Giannis’s per possession contribution was identical to Harden’s, Harden played more minutes, but Giannis won more games because the rest of his teammates contributed much more than Harden’s (overall and on a per possession basis), which player is the more valuable?

If they offered the same contributions offensively and defensively per possession, and Harden played more minutes, then yes an argument could be made that Harden is more valuable.

In reality though, Giannis is elite on the defensive end and Harden is average at best. That is what truly seperates them.

[Archx]

Doncic being 2nd in rgm poll confirms that he has Kobe/Lebron tier stans. Crazy because his nba career literally just started.

Well, he averaged a 32pt triple double for a month and Mavs were i think 3rd in the west at that time, why is it so crazy? OP could re-do the voting though. But Luka being injured at the moment sure does hurt his momentary voting, but season is still very long anyway.

[dygaction]

Sure. But you're assuming that the gap between the Buck's level of play with Giannis and the Rockets level of play with Harden is fully explained by how much more "dominant" Giannis is. The whole point is that we're trying to ascertain here how much of a team's success these players are responsible for.

Giannis in less minutes putting up better PER while leading the league's 2nd offense, 1 defense, and best record. Let's not discuss the vast difference in defense.
Their past two seasons head to head (Bucks:Rockets = 3:0):
Harden: 42p/11r/6a; 23/10/7; 19/7/14
Giannis: 27p/21r/5a; 19/14/4; 30/13/11

You are aware that PER us a per minute stat, right? Giannis playing significantly less minutes doesn’t make his higher PER still more impressive. His PER would more likely go down with more minutes, especially given the physicality of his game and the energy it requires him to expend.

For the sake of argument, if Giannis’s per possession contribution was identical to Harden’s, Harden played more minutes, but Giannis won more games because the rest of his teammates contributed much more than Harden’s (overall and on a per possession basis), which player is the more valuable?

Less min, more dominating raw numbers, 3:0 wins, do you really need anything else?