MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

Who is your pick for the 2019-20 MVP?

Antetokounmpo
253
51%
James
53
11%
Walker
4
1%
Doncic
117
24%
Harden
27
5%
Siakam
12
2%
Jokic
4
1%
Leonard
5
1%
Davis
17
3%
Towns
5
1%
 
Total votes: 497

Archx
RealGM
Posts: 12,374
And1: 10,148
Joined: Feb 09, 2018
 

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2021 » by Archx » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:27 pm

dygaction wrote:
NY 567 wrote:I don't think much has changed, Giannis is still clearly in the lead by quite a margin with LeBron/Luka/Harden all in basically a 3 way tie for 2nd place followed by Butler, Jokic, Kemba, AD


I agree with you but do not understand why suddenly all media is changing the tones on Luka giving all credites to coach, KP, and good role players. Richard Jefferson just called Luka a top 10 or top 12 player :banghead: He should list the other 11 :crazy:



This went quickly from "Does he even deserve ROY award" to "is he a top5 player now"? Being basically top 3 in MVP voting this whole time it's kinda absurd to position him out of top10. But then again, i've said many times, this dude improves every single season since he was very young, and all those, he reached his ceiling already at the draft day talks, are even more absurd. I mean, what are we gonna talk next about next year? Probably who deserves finals MVP more, him or KP? :lol:
Jaqua92
RealGM
Posts: 13,304
And1: 8,527
Joined: Feb 21, 2017
 

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2022 » by Jaqua92 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:05 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter
How is Harden over Giannis????

Giannis is having the better individual season with a GOAT tier individual season peak, with the best team record.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Infinite Llamas
RealGM
Posts: 10,565
And1: 24,102
Joined: Jul 22, 2006
Location: Land of Llamas
   

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2023 » by Infinite Llamas » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:32 pm

Jaqua92 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter
How is Harden over Giannis????

Giannis is having the better individual season with a GOAT tier individual season peak, with the best team record.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Giannis also plays on a much more stacked team. Harden has a much much larger workload.
Gerald Green Loves LLamas!
Fico92
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,899
And1: 2,361
Joined: Aug 05, 2014

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2024 » by Fico92 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:19 am

Bucks on pace for yet another double digit victory (led by 30) in a game without Giannis. Hell of a supporting cast he has, much better than most other MVP candidates.
Amare_1_Knicks
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,520
And1: 3,412
Joined: Aug 07, 2010

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2025 » by Amare_1_Knicks » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:32 am

Fico92 wrote:Bucks on pace for yet another double digit victory (led by 30) in a game without Giannis. Hell of a supporting cast he has, much better than most other MVP candidates.


I think they’re well-coached and know who they are. On paper they’re certainly not a world-beater supporting cast.
Perseus1966
Veteran
Posts: 2,784
And1: 1,159
Joined: Nov 29, 2018
   

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2026 » by Perseus1966 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:36 am

3 vets,one 17h pick ,the 14th player of blazers,brook (lakers gave him for free),robin,and a 10.000 years old ersan
I want RoLo to be my son in law!
Fico92
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,899
And1: 2,361
Joined: Aug 05, 2014

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2027 » by Fico92 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:07 am

Perseus1966 wrote:3 vets,one 17h pick ,the 14th player of blazers,brook (lakers gave him for free),robin,and a 10.000 years old ersan


Yet average victory without Giannis this year is 20+...
Perseus1966
Veteran
Posts: 2,784
And1: 1,159
Joined: Nov 29, 2018
   

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2028 » by Perseus1966 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:10 am

Such things happen when you shot 40% 3s and you play against (hawks sorry guys-trae out too)
I want RoLo to be my son in law!
Young gun 6
Analyst
Posts: 3,589
And1: 6,078
Joined: Dec 23, 2014
     

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2029 » by Young gun 6 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:13 am

Fico92 wrote:Bucks on pace for yet another double digit victory (led by 30) in a game without Giannis. Hell of a supporting cast he has, much better than most other MVP candidates.


They played Atlanta without Parker, Len and 3/4 of Trae haha.
User avatar
greekbuck34
RealGM
Posts: 16,048
And1: 11,639
Joined: Feb 02, 2015
   

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2030 » by greekbuck34 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:38 pm

Fico92 wrote:
Perseus1966 wrote:3 vets,one 17h pick ,the 14th player of blazers,brook (lakers gave him for free),robin,and a 10.000 years old ersan


Yet average victory without Giannis this year is 20+...


On the Pelicans and the Hawks without Jabari, Len and T.Young(from the 2Q). :D

I think this season we have better chemistry though and it's logical because it's Bud's second season.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
limbo
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
And1: 2,680
Joined: Jun 30, 2019

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2031 » by limbo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:39 pm

If people wanna argue supporting casts they need to be on the Harden bandwagon.

He's doing the most with the least right now.
nikster
RealGM
Posts: 14,432
And1: 12,933
Joined: Sep 08, 2013

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2032 » by nikster » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:34 pm

Infinite Llamas wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter
How is Harden over Giannis????

Giannis is having the better individual season with a GOAT tier individual season peak, with the best team record.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Giannis also plays on a much more stacked team. Harden has a much much larger workload.

yup, the link OP posted shows 3 more Bucks being top 33 in offensive RPM.
dygaction
General Manager
Posts: 7,637
And1: 4,925
Joined: Sep 20, 2015
 

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2033 » by dygaction » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:47 pm

limbo wrote:If people wanna argue supporting casts they need to be on the Harden bandwagon.

He's doing the most with the least right now.


Harden's ISO will turn most of his supporting cast worse as we have seen from CP3 and RW. Giannis does not need the ball as much.
limbo
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
And1: 2,680
Joined: Jun 30, 2019

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2034 » by limbo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:01 pm

dygaction wrote:Harden's ISO will turn most of his supporting cast worse as we have seen from CP3 and RW. Giannis does not need the ball as much.


1. Harden's ISO is carrying the 2nd best offense in the league (with key players out like Gordon and Westbrook sucking)
2. Harden's ISO didn't prevent CP3 from being one of the best players in the league in 2018, before being slowed down by injuries.
3. Harden's ISO doesn't change the fact that RW is an extremely flawed player that was in decline way before this season.
4. Harden's ISO has nothing to do with the fact that the Rockets are below average defensively, an area they need to improve far more than their offense, which is doing great via Harden's ISO considering the rest of the cast.
dygaction
General Manager
Posts: 7,637
And1: 4,925
Joined: Sep 20, 2015
 

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2035 » by dygaction » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:50 pm

limbo wrote:
dygaction wrote:Harden's ISO will turn most of his supporting cast worse as we have seen from CP3 and RW. Giannis does not need the ball as much.


1. Harden's ISO is carrying the 2nd best offense in the league (with key players out like Gordon and Westbrook sucking)
2. Harden's ISO didn't prevent CP3 from being one of the best players in the league in 2018, before being slowed down by injuries.
3. Harden's ISO doesn't change the fact that RW is an extremely flawed player that was in decline way before this season.
4. Harden's ISO has nothing to do with the fact that the Rockets are below average defensively, an area they need to improve far more than their offense, which is doing great via Harden's ISO considering the rest of the cast.


The flaw of ISO is other players including the bench would get cold without enough touches. That's why people like you claim he does not have enough help.
As much you want to downgrade RW, he is still a really good player with 24/8/7. It is the coach's job to prevent him from chucking 3s.
ISO and biggest star's sub par defense have a big part to do with the overall below average defense. You cannot expect everyone to be as motivated when they are not part of the offense.
User avatar
Dr_Heat
RealGM
Posts: 21,527
And1: 96,866
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
Location: Bustelo coffee bar
         

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2036 » by Dr_Heat » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:10 pm

Doncic , plain and simple.
Dr_Heat wrote: Oof
limbo
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
And1: 2,680
Joined: Jun 30, 2019

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2037 » by limbo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:34 pm

dygaction wrote:The flaw of ISO is other players including the bench would get cold without enough touches. That's why people like you claim he does not have enough help.
As much you want to downgrade RW, he is still a really good player with 24/8/7. It is the coach's job to prevent him from chucking 3s.
ISO and biggest star's sub par defense have a big part to do with the overall below average defense. You cannot expect everyone to be as motivated when they are not part of the offense.


Didn't we just establish the offense isn't the problem? So why are you talking about players getting cold without enough touches?

Who are these 'cold' players, btw?

PJ Tucker - 63%TS
Capela - 63%TS
House - 60%TS
McLemore - 59%TS
Chandler - 74%TS
Clemons - 59%TS

The only guys that are 'cold' are Austin Rivers, who was also 'cold' in New Orleans, LAC and Washington... He's been 'cold' his whole career because he's booty cheeks and only in the league due to his father's nepotism. And of course Westbrook, who can't score in the half-court to save his life. And no, it's not because of Harden, because he wasn't much better his last two seasons in OKC...

You can't sit behind your screen trying to tell me how good Westbrook is when teams are literally double-teaming Harden as soon as he crosses the half-court and Westbrook can't even take advantage of 4v3 situations. He's crap. Westbrook's stats are more a product of high usage and pace. He hunts defensive rebounds and then pushes the ball and shoots/passes a lot. This is nothing new about Westbrook. Dude is a high volume raw stat hoe. If Westbrook's raw stats actually matched his impact he'd be one of the best players in NBA history easily, but he's not. He's not even close to Kyle Lowry who produces half of his stats.

Also, apparently 'reeling' Westbrook in and managing his playstyle is the coach's job, but making your team play defense is Harden's job, because he needs to allow Capela, PJ Tucker, Daneul House and them to spend more time with the ball in their hands offensively and make decisions... while arguably the best on-ball player of all time in Harden and Westbrook who is completely useless without the ball need have the ball less... All of this will somehow end of having a snowball effect on the defensive end, lol.

I'm gonna drop a quick one-two on you again:

1. RE:DEFENSE - The Rockets were arguably a Top 5 defensive team in 2018 with Harden doing more or less the same thing offensively. So your theory of Harden's offensive style contributing to Rockets defensive woes doesn't really mesh with what conspired in reality. The defensive dip is far more likely to be attributed to losing Ariza, Mbah Moute and CP3, all very good defenders, and replacing them with worse defenders.

2. RE:WESTBROOK - Nobody can 'force' Westbrook to do anything. The onus is on him. From there on, the coach has two options. Either allow him to play the game in a way that makes sense to him and feels comfortable, living with the results in the process, or, bench him for insubordination and risk losing a key player, causing chemistry issues etc. Needless to say, MDA and the Rockets don't exactly have much luxury in terms of roster talent/flexibility to be giving Westbrook any sort of ultimatums or anything like that. I think the answer to this is pretty obvious.
User avatar
blazza18
RealGM
Posts: 56,545
And1: 29,398
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
       

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2038 » by blazza18 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:18 pm

Fico92 wrote:Bucks on pace for yet another double digit victory (led by 30) in a game without Giannis. Hell of a supporting cast he has, much better than most other MVP candidates.


Pretty bad to have a good team in a team sport imo. Gonna cost Giannis some mvp narrative.
Baddy Chuck wrote:I want to win but I also love chaos.
kazyv
Senior
Posts: 715
And1: 720
Joined: May 29, 2018
 

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2039 » by kazyv » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:45 am

limbo wrote:
dygaction wrote:The flaw of ISO is other players including the bench would get cold without enough touches. That's why people like you claim he does not have enough help.
As much you want to downgrade RW, he is still a really good player with 24/8/7. It is the coach's job to prevent him from chucking 3s.
ISO and biggest star's sub par defense have a big part to do with the overall below average defense. You cannot expect everyone to be as motivated when they are not part of the offense.


Didn't we just establish the offense isn't the problem? So why are you talking about players getting cold without enough touches?

Who are these 'cold' players, btw?

PJ Tucker - 63%TS
Capela - 63%TS
House - 60%TS
McLemore - 59%TS
Chandler - 74%TS
Clemons - 59%TS

The only guys that are 'cold' are Austin Rivers, who was also 'cold' in New Orleans, LAC and Washington... He's been 'cold' his whole career because he's booty cheeks and only in the league due to his father's nepotism. And of course Westbrook, who can't score in the half-court to save his life. And no, it's not because of Harden, because he wasn't much better his last two seasons in OKC...


looks like his supporting cast isn't so bad after all?

wb sucking is on harden, since he had cp3 shipped out, sooo....

what are you arguing again?
Dundalis
Senior
Posts: 680
And1: 567
Joined: Jun 22, 2011

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#2040 » by Dundalis » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:26 am

The Rockets play a system that is based around Harden's isolation scoring. If you don't have players that can complement him perfectly, maybe you need to adjust the system a bit. Harden does NOT play with scrubs. He plays with some very talented players. Whether they complement his game perfectly is a different story, but it's incumbent on the coaching to make sure the players on the court maximise their abilities together, because it's 5 on 5, not 1 on 1.

This idea that Harden is playing with a way worse supporting cast isn't accurate IMO, despite the fit issue. You plug Giannis in place of Harden, I think they are a better team.

Return to The General Board