WCJ or Lauri

[Stratmaster]

The rest of the league views him as replaceable? You know this how exactly?

(You don’t)

If you’re watching the actual games then I don’t understand how anyone can come to this conclusion but I guess that fine.

I don't know about there rest of the league, but I have watched every minute of every game.

Carter is indeed low usage, has stone hands, can't finish well and his offensive stats are propped up by his unwillingness to take anything but the easiest shots.

He passes the ball out of offensive rebounds instead of going back up strong.

He is a very good defensive player although in my opinion overrated. I think Gafford could have a bigger impact and is more disruptive.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

You largely just described Daniel Gafford, who’s scored most of his points this season by dunking the ball and showing little to no other offensive skill.

Carter passes on offensive rebounds because his instinct as a player is to pass first. It’s one of his best skills, his passing ability, something that is rarely used within this offense.

And I have no idea how Carter is overrated on defense. The reads he makes and what he cleans up despite being tasked to guard the perimeter and rim on the same possession is insane for a 20 year old.

Seriously, what Boylen’s ultra aggressive scheme asks of a player like Carter is immense, to the point where I don’t understand at all how one can think he’s overrated on defense.

Yes. Exactly. I just described Gafford. Which is why it might make more sense to trade Carter than Lauri.

Get it?

EDIT: except Gafford goes up strong at the hoop.

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[kingkirk]

I don't know about there rest of the league, but I have watched every minute of every game.

Carter is indeed low usage, has stone hands, can't finish well and his offensive stats are propped up by his unwillingness to take anything but the easiest shots.

He passes the ball out of offensive rebounds instead of going back up strong.

He is a very good defensive player although in my opinion overrated. I think Gafford could have a bigger impact and is more disruptive.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

You largely just described Daniel Gafford, who’s scored most of his points this season by dunking the ball and showing little to no other offensive skill.

Carter passes on offensive rebounds because his instinct as a player is to pass first. It’s one of his best skills, his passing ability, something that is rarely used within this offense.

And I have no idea how Carter is overrated on defense. The reads he makes and what he cleans up despite being tasked to guard the perimeter and rim on the same possession is insane for a 20 year old.

Seriously, what Boylen’s ultra aggressive scheme asks of a player like Carter is immense, to the point where I don’t understand at all how one can think he’s overrated on defense.

Yes. Exactly. I just described Gafford. Which is why it might make more sense to trade Carter than Lauri.

Get it?

EDIT: except Gafford goes up strong at the hoop.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

I was essentially suggesting you’re wrong about Carter, as in you were underselling what he does / can do. That was my point.

And I don’t know why we’re holding it against him for only taking shots he’s making and doing so at a good rate?

Carter makes 69% of his shots in the restricted area. If those are the only shots he takes, it’s working for him.

He’s a bad post player. Why? Because he grew up being a face up big who hasn’t been used in such a role at all in Chicago. It’s dumb.

[chefo]

I wouldn't trade either, but you put a gun to my head, I'd choose Lauri and it's not even that close for me... even as a WCJ fan.

See what happens to the Bulls offense when Lauri gets it going--there was a guy glued to him 30 feet out. On a couple of occasions last night, multiple guys ran at him to contest or double team off-ball when it looked like the Bulls were running sets for him. As I've noted before, if you want to run a Zach ISO, all you need to do is fake a high screen with WCJ and Lauri on the opposite elbow 3 and Zach should have a clear, and I mean clear, path to the hoop for a layup.

That's the 'gravity' of a high-volume, ~40% 3 point shooter--that's how people defended the Klays and Kyles of the world. As of right now, opposing teams virtually don't guard WCJ. I mean they might on occasion, but all prepped teams seem to have his guy roam--see Magic, Raps, Hornets, etc. That clogs up the lane for our motion offense and Zach, in particular.

I remember when we had Lauri, NIko and Bobby-- the lane was more open than when Moses parted the Red Sea. Rolo post ups, even our low-talent guards could drive any time they wanted. People guarded Niko the same exact way as Lauri right now. They had to at least respect Bobby.

Having such players makes everybody's job on the floor on O that much easier.

As for WCJ's superiority on D--true, but WCJ is small, as in short, and this year looks noticeably slower and less vertical than as a rook. In essence, as a 20-year old, either the Bulls or on his own, are turning him into a Charles Oakley or Kendrick Perkins type, hopefully with more range as his career goes on. Valuable under many circumstances, a cog in a good team, not a premier piece because he's just too small and lacks the verticality at his current weight to challenge shots without fouling too much. WCJ is much better on team D than Gafford for example, but look how much more intimidating Gafford looks to the eye-test because he is taller and gets up higher and quicker.

And besides, Lauri has improved on D by leaps and bounds--he now regularly challenges shots when he's in the vicinity, as opposed to just standing there, which is what he was doing the last couple of years.

Overall, even if Lauri peaks as a 20/8/2 guy that shoots ~40% from 3 on high volume, with average to above-average defense, that's much more valuable than the direction WCJ's career is currently headed.

Now, a 250 lbs rather than 270 lbs WCJ that gets his quickness and verticality back, and that has to be respected from distance, that's a closer call--but that's the WCJ we thought we were getting, not the WCJ we currently got.

[Stratmaster]

You largely just described Daniel Gafford, who’s scored most of his points this season by dunking the ball and showing little to no other offensive skill.

Carter passes on offensive rebounds because his instinct as a player is to pass first. It’s one of his best skills, his passing ability, something that is rarely used within this offense.

And I have no idea how Carter is overrated on defense. The reads he makes and what he cleans up despite being tasked to guard the perimeter and rim on the same possession is insane for a 20 year old.

Seriously, what Boylen’s ultra aggressive scheme asks of a player like Carter is immense, to the point where I don’t understand at all how one can think he’s overrated on defense.

Yes. Exactly. I just described Gafford. Which is why it might make more sense to trade Carter than Lauri.

Get it?

EDIT: except Gafford goes up strong at the hoop.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

I was essentially suggesting you’re wrong about Carter, as in you were underselling what he does / can do. That was my point.

And I don’t know why we’re holding it against him for only taking shots he’s making and doing so at a good rate?

Carter makes 69% of his shots in the restricted area. If those are the only shots he takes, it’s working for him.

You make excuses for him passing out of offensive rebounds, trying to make it sound like a good thing. It's his natural inclination. It is a bad thing for a Center's natural inclination to be to pass out of an offensive rebound.

It is held against him that he only takes shots he can make because he is not taking shots a solid NBA Center in today's game should be able to make. Obviously his coaches are telling him the same thing because we have seen a concerted effort by him in the last 2 games to take more of those shots. And hey...he made a couple 3's. He was 2-5 inside. He was 3-8 the game before that. So far, when he takes the inside shots he should be taking, his percentage drops. Again, a very small sample size because he was so passive most off the season.

But again, I was speaking in the context of the question being asked. I have nothing against Carter other than his soft offensive play. I never said anything about "prospects". Carter is still young and may develop into something more than a serviceable Center. I even made it a point to acknowledge my response was based on play to date and that he is only 20 and certainly can get better. I also in my very first post said there is no need to make this decision now, and I would like to see a lot more basketball before making such a decsion.

Still, as the saying goes, if you put a gun to my head I would pull the trigger on trading Carter before Lauri.

I think that was a mixed metaphor.

[drosereturn]

If Lauri can avg 40% in threes, its a no brainer. That is close to a superstar and max is hella cheap for that caliber considering KP is already maxed out. We all know he can avg 20/8 but if he manages to get efficient (something like 45/40/90), thats untouchable.
Lauris above average defense is way better than Carter's non existent offense even considering 3 yr gap. Big mean dont usually develop a jumpshot just bc they gain more experience and he has shown 0 indication he will.
You can make a case Carter has bigger impact but centers like him are littered whereas Lauri is only one of a kind.

More I think about it Lauri needs someone like Drummond that can just live in the paint, rebound so he can have space.
The whole roster around him sucks. No wonder Lauri struggled. I bet Dirk will suck in this toxic environment where its impossible to even get touches.

[JohnnyTapwater]

Here are some contracts that could be used to help gauge Lauri's asking price:

Kristaps Porzingis, PF
Signed a 5 year $158.25 million maximum contract with Dallas (DAL)

Julius Randle, PF
Signed a 3 year $62.1 million contract with New York (NYK)

Pascal Siakam, PF
Signed a 4 year $130 million rookie contract extension with Toronto (TOR)

Jaylen Brown, SG
Signed a 4 year $107 million rookie contract extension with Boston (BOS)

Domantas Sabonis, C
Signed a 4 year $77 million contract extension with Indiana (IND)

Al Horford, C
Signed a 4 year $109 million contract with Philadelphia (PHI)

D'Angelo Russell, PG
Signed a 4 year $117 million maximum contract with Brooklyn (BKN) as part of a Sign-and-Trade with Golden State (GSW)

Bojan Bogdanovic, SF
Signed a 4 year $73.1 million contract with Utah (UTH)

Nikola Vucevic, C
Signed a 4 year $100 million contract with Orlando (ORL)

Draymond Green, PF
Signed a 4 year $99.67 million contract extension with Golden State (GSW)

Pax

So I think we're looking at 4 years $70-$75 million for Lauri.

[bledredwine]

Not sure why you'd want to trade either.

Obviously Lauri is in worse form, but he's getting better again. They're both good players that compliment each other.

This.

There’s a good chance that they can get is first rounders if we let them grow. Neither is playing to potential.

[sco]

This debate is fun, but IMO, silly. You have 2 guys who play different positions and have different (complementary) roles - one offensive/perimeter the other defense/paint.

Also, the "trade this guy or that guy" debate is missing the "for who" aspect. Neither (thus far) is an allstar and should not stand in the way of landing the Bulls a top 10 player via trade if by some miracle one became available, and if one guy fetches you a great return and the other doesn't - that matters the most.

[LateNight]

Lol Lauri is 23... Wendell is 20! We don't have to chose.

Definitely agree that it’s a false premise to say it’s either or. I’m convinced that if Lauri plays like he can play, they are excellent compliments.

I’m assuming it’s just a “fun” hypothetical exercise in valuation.

It is purely hypothetical.

It just seems like people often create trade scenarios using one or the other and I’m interested in knowing who people would rather keep if forced to choose

[cjbulls]

Why is Lauri so beloved? He doesn’t create his own shots, he’s not a facilitator, he is a below average defender, he has no multi-position ability, he doesn’t generate blocks or steals, he rebounds average at best, he’s soft and he has injury issues (and potentially mental issues).

What does he do? Shoot? He’s at 35.6% 3s for his career. I just don’t get it. He’s a secondary or tertiary scorer that adds little in other areas.

[coldfish]

Lol Lauri is 23... Wendell is 20! We don't have to chose.

Definitely agree that it’s a false premise to say it’s either or. I’m convinced that if Lauri plays like he can play, they are excellent compliments.

I’m assuming it’s just a “fun” hypothetical exercise in valuation.

It is purely hypothetical.

It just seems like people often create trade scenarios using one or the other and I’m interested in knowing who people would rather keep if forced to choose

Right now, I wouldn't want either of them on a contract they will get when they hit free agency.

Wendell is aesthetically the better player because he moves around and is willing to basically try anything. Post score, rebound, help defense, pass, etc. The problem is that he isn't particularly good at any of it. Just the fact that he is willing to try though is what gives him his great metrics. His hands are terrible and I'm not sure that's the type of thing that gets fixed at age 20.

Lauri's goal in life is to be a worse version of Ryan Anderson. I'm not really sure what value he has.

[coldfish]

Why is Lauri so beloved? He doesn’t create his own shots, he’s not a facilitator, he is a below average defender, he has no multi-position ability, he doesn’t generate blocks or steals, he rebounds average at best, he’s soft and he has injury issues (and potentially mental issues).

What does he do? Shoot? He’s at 35.6% 3s for his career. I just don’t get it. He’s a secondary or tertiary scorer that adds little in other areas.

I wish I could give this a bunch of +1's. Ben Gordon was hated on the Bulls by a large section of the fanbase for being a chucker. Well, BG shot better than Lauri, passed better, created for himself, etc. all while playing a less important position than PF.

I don't get the fan love with Lauri. With that said, the board has so few people nowadays just a few vocal posters can make it seem like opinion is something other than what it really is.

[Red Larrivee]

Wendell Carter is a better basketball player than Lauri Markkanen, and it's not particularly close. For all the complaints about how the Bulls misuse Markkanen, you could argue that they misuse Carter just as bad, if not worse. If we had to choose (and we don't), then Carter is the easy pick.

[petebraun0]

Lol Lauri is 23... Wendell is 20! We don't have to choose.

And Lauri is only 22. Drafted at 19, I guess. Still young.

[FranchisePlayer]

I hope it’s just the vague injury. I’m starting to buy it, but I haven’t bought it yet. Part of me believes it was the Bulls covering for a young and important player who was having a disastrous start to a season. He was playing more mpg when he was “injured” than he is now. That makes no sense.

Time will tell. When the season ends and it’s 20 games terriblauri followed by 62 games marvelauri then I’ll happily - really, really happily - accept the injury explanation.

So other than those 20 games you've seen him play for 133 games. About 6 times more. Okay, so it's his 3rd season so you and others maybe rightfully demanding to see a more matured player and better results.

I still fail to see how those 20 games while playing through 'some nagging injuries' weigh more than the other 133 games, give more evidence of what his abilities/potential/ceiling are.

Do you think his first 2 seasons weigh less just because they were his first 2 seasons as in you are as good as your last game? I think everyone already saw the raw potential prior Boylen era, it doesn't vanish into thin air in 20 games especially since the start from the gate to the season was so spectacular.

IMO it seems some posters purposely channel their frustration in Lauri's direction. He had a bad stretch for 20 games so he made a perfect whipping boy. In any case, I find it very irrational to say now when he's found his game 'oh but we can't forget those 20 games' when evaluating him when obviously there have been way more good games than bad ones in the first 2 seasons which to take into account.

[drosereturn]

This debate is fun, but IMO, silly. You have 2 guys who play different positions and have different (complementary) roles - one offensive/perimeter the other defense/paint.

Also, the "trade this guy or that guy" debate is missing the "for who" aspect. Neither (thus far) is an allstar and should not stand in the way of landing the Bulls a top 10 player via trade if by some miracle one became available, and if one guy fetches you a great return and the other doesn't - that matters the most.

Carter is a defensive specialist that really doesnt do much on the other end. A typical complimentary piece thats great when you have superstars but crap if you dont have a number 1& 2 option.
The Bulls have been drafting way too many bigs when they should have targeted guards/forwards in the 2018 draft.
I would have def traded #7 for 12 and 13 getting Miles Bridge, MPJ. Now both players are all so good I wonder in the future they might actually outvalue Carter individually. Same mistake over and over when they wasted multiple picks for McD.

[ZOMG]

Wendell Carter is a better basketball player than Lauri Markkanen, and it's not particularly close. For all the complaints about how the Bulls misuse Markkanen, you could argue that they misuse Carter just as bad, if not worse. If we had to choose (and we don't), then Carter is the easy pick.

So how do the Bulls "misuse" Carter? No offense intended, but IMO that's simply a ridiculous statement if you don't back it up. ALL the proof we have points to Carter playing the one and only role he can handle at this point.

I mean... he hasn't even shown flashes of more varied scoring ability, ballhandling, ability to carry more of a load offensively. And before you trudge out the old "but he can pass out of the high post" thing... if you're a modern 5 who can't do that in a motion offense, you CANNOT BE PLAYING - at least not starting. That's as basic as it gets.

I'd be just as happy as the next idiot to see Carter be something of a scoring/shooting threat, as that would finally open up the middle for drives. And it's certainly a good sign he made those two wide open 3pt shots against Atlanta. But he has a very long way to go to reach that level.

In the 2020 NBA, Carter is a center in a PF's body, which in itself is not necessarily a basketball death sentence these days. But he also has an outdated center skillset. If he could dribble the ball and pass on the move as well as shoot somewhat, he'd fit nicely into the kind of offense the Bulls should be running. But as it is, they have to account for Wendell setting up shop in the low post every time down to floor, which takes away a lot of options.

[cjbulls]

Wendell Carter is a better basketball player than Lauri Markkanen, and it's not particularly close. For all the complaints about how the Bulls misuse Markkanen, you could argue that they misuse Carter just as bad, if not worse. If we had to choose (and we don't), then Carter is the easy pick.

So how do the Bulls "misuse" Carter? No offense intended, but IMO that's simply a ridiculous statement if you don't back it up. ALL the proof we have points to Carter playing the one and only role he can handle at this point.

I mean... he hasn't even shown flashes of more varied scoring ability, ballhandling, ability to carry more of a load offensively. And before you trudge out the old "but he can pass out of the high post" thing... if you're a modern 5 who can't do that in a motion offense, you CANNOT BE PLAYING - at least not starting. That's as basic as it gets.

I'd be just as happy as the next idiot to see Carter be something of a scoring/shooting threat, as that would finally open up the middle for drives. And it's certainly a good sign he made those two wide open 3pt shots against Atlanta. But he has a very long way to go to reach that level.

In the 2020 NBA, Carter is a center in a PF's body, which in itself is not necessarily a basketball death sentence these days. But he also has an outdated center skillset. If he could dribble the ball and pass on the move as well as shoot somewhat, he'd fit nicely into the kind of offense the Bulls should be running. But as it is, they have to account for Wendell setting up shop in the low post every time down to floor, which takes away a lot of options.

I think this is quietly the reason people don’t like Carter. And no matter how many times I post height doesn’t matter nearly as much as standing reach and carters standing reach is perfectly average for an nba center, people can’t get over it.

[ZOMG]

Wendell Carter is a better basketball player than Lauri Markkanen, and it's not particularly close. For all the complaints about how the Bulls misuse Markkanen, you could argue that they misuse Carter just as bad, if not worse. If we had to choose (and we don't), then Carter is the easy pick.

So how do the Bulls "misuse" Carter? No offense intended, but IMO that's simply a ridiculous statement if you don't back it up. ALL the proof we have points to Carter playing the one and only role he can handle at this point.

I mean... he hasn't even shown flashes of more varied scoring ability, ballhandling, ability to carry more of a load offensively. And before you trudge out the old "but he can pass out of the high post" thing... if you're a modern 5 who can't do that in a motion offense, you CANNOT BE PLAYING - at least not starting. That's as basic as it gets.

I'd be just as happy as the next idiot to see Carter be something of a scoring/shooting threat, as that would finally open up the middle for drives. And it's certainly a good sign he made those two wide open 3pt shots against Atlanta. But he has a very long way to go to reach that level.

In the 2020 NBA, Carter is a center in a PF's body, which in itself is not necessarily a basketball death sentence these days. But he also has an outdated center skillset. If he could dribble the ball and pass on the move as well as shoot somewhat, he'd fit nicely into the kind of offense the Bulls should be running. But as it is, they have to account for Wendell setting up shop in the low post every time down to floor, which takes away a lot of options.

I think this is quietly the reason people don’t like Carter. And no matter how many times I post height doesn’t matter nearly as much as standing reach and carters standing reach is perfectly average for an nba center, people can’t get over it.

His standing reach won't do squat when someone like Valanciunas or Vucevic backs him down and manhandles him for the and-1. He can't really guard true NBA bigs, which wouldn't be such a problem if he could balance out that flaw with quick feet on the perimeter or a diverse scoring ability. But he can't, not at this point at least.

Wendell has a good feel for the game, but his "efficiency zone" is really, really narrow. Again, that would be fine for a specialist coming off the bench, but it's much more problematic for a starter.

[cjbulls]

So how do the Bulls "misuse" Carter? No offense intended, but IMO that's simply a ridiculous statement if you don't back it up. ALL the proof we have points to Carter playing the one and only role he can handle at this point.

I mean... he hasn't even shown flashes of more varied scoring ability, ballhandling, ability to carry more of a load offensively. And before you trudge out the old "but he can pass out of the high post" thing... if you're a modern 5 who can't do that in a motion offense, you CANNOT BE PLAYING - at least not starting. That's as basic as it gets.

I'd be just as happy as the next idiot to see Carter be something of a scoring/shooting threat, as that would finally open up the middle for drives. And it's certainly a good sign he made those two wide open 3pt shots against Atlanta. But he has a very long way to go to reach that level.

In the 2020 NBA, Carter is a center in a PF's body, which in itself is not necessarily a basketball death sentence these days. But he also has an outdated center skillset. If he could dribble the ball and pass on the move as well as shoot somewhat, he'd fit nicely into the kind of offense the Bulls should be running. But as it is, they have to account for Wendell setting up shop in the low post every time down to floor, which takes away a lot of options.

I think this is quietly the reason people don’t like Carter. And no matter how many times I post height doesn’t matter nearly as much as standing reach and carters standing reach is perfectly average for an nba center, people can’t get over it.

His standing reach won't do squat when someone like Valanciunas or Vucevic backs him down and manhanles him for the and-1. He can't really guard true NBA bigs, which wouldn't be such a problem if he could balance out that flaw with quick feet on the perimeter or a diverse scoring ability. But he can't, not at this point at least.

Wendell has a good feel for the game, but his "efficiency zone" is really, really narrow. Again, that would be fine for a specialist coming off the bench, but it's much more problematic for a starter.

There is no perfect center that handles big plodding centers (Valunciunus) and smaller quicker centers (AD). If they had Valunciunas you’d complain he can’t guard the quicker bigs.

As of right now, WCJ’s defensive RPM places him #3 among centers. He stops opposing offenses so what does it matter that he gives up a few extra post points to Vucevic?