Tatum and Brown, as 1-2 Options

[zoyathedestroya]

I guess my point in regards to tanking is that here the Celtics are with Smart, Brown, Tatum Langford as a young core, supplemented by 2 all star veterans and some young promising assets. In addition there is a great chance to add another high lottery pick from Memphis. That is a great place to be.

To be clear, I agree with this. I think tanking can be an appropriate way to build a team, but I'm very happy with where we are without much tanking.

Sliding doors moment -- what if we never had the Brooklyn trade and no one wanted to trade for aging Pierce/KG, I wonder how Ainge would've went about rebuilding the team.

Major part of the success of our current rebuild is because we outsourced our tank and didn't necessitate tanking ourselves.

[djFan71]

I guess my point in regards to tanking is that here the Celtics are with Smart, Brown, Tatum Langford as a young core, supplemented by 2 all star veterans and some young promising assets. In addition there is a great chance to add another high lottery pick from Memphis. That is a great place to be.

To be clear, I agree with this. I think tanking can be an appropriate way to build a team, but I'm very happy with where we are without much tanking.

This, for me as well.

[celticfan42487]

He means 47 assisted for Tatum. Jaylen has the ability to create more separation on the drives, but god *** he is absolutely thriving. When he takes an open three now, I'm SHOCKED if it doesn't go in.

Fixed. No need to shade the man lol.

It's not "shading", it's what it is lol. I'm not saying it to knock him, but he is absolutely treated as the 3rd option by opposing defenses. I've said i think he's become a top 30 player already, there's no shame in destroying the defenders put in front of him.

I see it in the complete opposite manner.

Brown takes the open good shots exclusively, if not then he continues to run the set play or goes to play B and runs off another pick.

Tatum loves to go Melo ball and take incredibly difficult shots, which if it's not a 3 point he invariably bricks.

Brown is playing offensive in a wise manner and maximizing his effectiveness. Hence the 21 ppg on 52% shooting.

Tatum... is well not.

Either the way the pick and seal offense we run is still centered around Kemba. And Tatum's shots are only bad until they start going in, maybe they will in a year or two. If not maybe he'll adjust and only take ones he makes on high efficiency.

It isn't like we're playing a lot of end of shot clock situations and Tatum is being forced to take bad shots. He's choosing too.

[Feed Your Head]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum is just missing shots he hit his first two years, though it's correcting this month. And he gets more defensive attention, so of course more of his shots are contested.

AVG Secs per touch:
Tatum: 2.65
Brown: 2.61

AVG Drib per touch:
Tatum: 1.68
Brown: 1.85

Passes Received:
Tatum: 40.9
Brown: 32.1

Passes Made:
Tatum: 44.3
Brown: 29.2

[Slax]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum just gets more defensive attention so his shots naturally will be more contested.

AVG Secs per touch:
Tatum: 2.65
Brown: 2.61

AVG Drib per touch:
Tatum: 1.68
Brown: 1.85

Passes Received:
Tatum: 40.9
Brown: 32.1

Passes Made:
Tatum: 44.3
Brown: 29.2

Interesting stats, thanks for sharing!

[Feed Your Head]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum just gets more defensive attention so his shots naturally will be more contested.

AVG Secs per touch:
Tatum: 2.65
Brown: 2.61

AVG Drib per touch:
Tatum: 1.68
Brown: 1.85

Passes Received:
Tatum: 40.9
Brown: 32.1

Passes Made:
Tatum: 44.3
Brown: 29.2

Interesting stats, thanks for sharing!

Duke4life831 always drops knowledge on the GB.

[Duke4life831]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum is just missing shots he hit his first two years, though it's correcting this month. And he gets more defensive attention, so of course more of his shots are contested.

AVG Secs per touch:
Tatum: 2.65
Brown: 2.61

AVG Drib per touch:
Tatum: 1.68
Brown: 1.85

Passes Received:
Tatum: 40.9
Brown: 32.1

Passes Made:
Tatum: 44.3
Brown: 29.2

I approve of these stats and argument! haha.

[VeryMuchWoke]

Doh

[VeryMuchWoke]

Wrong thread

[Feed Your Head]

These refs are **** too.

Wrong thread homie lol.

[cloverleaf]

Whoa, JB. As of last night he's up to .400 from 3, .476 from 16' to <3, .500 from 10-16', .483 from 3-10', and .720 from <3'. Add in his much improved .752 on FTs and he has a .620 TS%.

By comparison, JT is at .359, .350, .407, .408 and .567, with at least .842 on FTs for a .528 TS%.

JT arguably with the better overall impact on the game and their winning and fully expected to get his shooting %'s back up there again, while still being only 21yo. JB will also likely become better on D, while they both should just improve on their assists totals.

But they are both studs. And durable. And capable of being a fantastic 1-2 punch for the next dozen years.

[celticfan42487]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum is just missing shots he hit his first two years, though it's correcting this month. And he gets more defensive attention, so of course more of his shots are contested.

AVG Secs per touch:
Tatum: 2.65
Brown: 2.61

AVG Drib per touch:
Tatum: 1.68
Brown: 1.85

Passes Received:
Tatum: 40.9
Brown: 32.1

Passes Made:
Tatum: 44.3
Brown: 29.2

I approve of these stats and argument! haha.

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with Tatum vs Brown shot selection?

So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?

How many more times has Tatum run an isolation than Brown this year?

Stevens offense isn't running isolation plays. It's running picks and seals for all players. It's part of the reason we're doing so well with Theis and Kanter because they are accepting doing all the tough phyiscal work (but only Theis has show mastery over when to kill the pick instantly and roll to the basket when the man with the ball has gain the advantage)

[Duke4life831]

I'm going to steal this post from the GB, because i continue to see some posters say Tatum doesn't play within the offense and the ball sticks with him. It's not the case at all, Tatum is just missing shots he hit his first two years, though it's correcting this month. And he gets more defensive attention, so of course more of his shots are contested.

I approve of these stats and argument! haha.

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with Tatum vs Brown shot selection?

So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?

How many more times has Tatum run an isolation than Brown this year?

Stevens offense isn't running isolation plays. It's running picks and seals for all players. It's part of the reason we're doing so well with Theis and Kanter because they are accepting doing all the tough phyiscal work (but only Theis has show mastery over when to kill the pick instantly and roll to the basket when the man with the ball has gain the advantage)

Those numbers have nothing to do with shot selection, it shows the kind of flow they play in though on the average possession.

Tatum does ISO more but it's not a super high %. He ISOs 13% of his possessions which is 20th most in the NBA and equates to about 2.5 FGAs a game for him. Brown ISOs at a 6% frequency which leads to about 1 FGA a game.

When it comes to where they shoot from, 60% of Tatum's shots come from the 3 or at the rim. For Brown 63% of his shots come from the 3 or at the rim.

When it comes to this
"So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?"

The passing stats actually show Tatum is more likely to pass than Brown. Tatum has a higher pass per touch rate than Brown.

Tatum:
68 touches a game
44 passed per game
(64% of touches end up with a pass)

Brown:
48 touches per game
29 passes per game
(60% of touches end up with a pass)

[reload141]

Also, when we don’t execute the proper play (as in the opposing team stops it) usually with 5-8 seconds left is not enough time to run another play on the fly.

So the ball gets dumped to Tatum and the team fully expects him to ISO as they believe he is the most capable on the team to do it.

Give it time, he’ll get there it’s a part of his growth.

[celticfan42487]

I approve of these stats and argument! haha.

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with Tatum vs Brown shot selection?

So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?

How many more times has Tatum run an isolation than Brown this year?

Stevens offense isn't running isolation plays. It's running picks and seals for all players. It's part of the reason we're doing so well with Theis and Kanter because they are accepting doing all the tough phyiscal work (but only Theis has show mastery over when to kill the pick instantly and roll to the basket when the man with the ball has gain the advantage)

Those numbers have nothing to do with shot selection, it shows the kind of flow they play in though on the average possession.

Tatum does ISO more but it's not a super high %. He ISOs 13% of his possessions which is 20th most in the NBA and equates to about 2.5 FGAs a game for him. Brown ISOs at a 6% frequency which leads to about 1 FGA a game.

When it comes to where they shoot from, 60% of Tatum's shots come from the 3 or at the rim. For Brown 63% of his shots come from the 3 or at the rim.

When it comes to this
"So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?"

The passing stats actually show Tatum is more likely to pass than Brown. Tatum has a higher pass per touch rate than Brown.

Tatum:
68 touches a game
44 passed per game
(64% of touches end up with a pass)

Brown:
48 touches per game
29 passes per game
(60% of touches end up with a pass)

Yeah shot selection is tough to show with stats. I guess contested shot rate is a stat that would give some number to it. But it also is how often Tatum drives in traffic or simply loses the ball driving compare to Brown. Who has somehow this year developed a lethal driving game where he no longer gets blocked, has a floater he can go to, and seems to get to the rim and finish at a high rate. While Tatum's drive game looks worse than rookie year.

One question I have, and I'm sorry for putting the burden on you I really appreciate these fantastic break downs you do, When you say Tatum has the ISO at the 20th most rate in the NBA. Do you mean out of EVERYONE in the NBA Tatum chooses to ISO on his possession the 20th most in the league?

For someone with the what was it the absolute dead last efficiency rate in ISOs last year that's an astoundingly fatal flaw. At 6%, somewhere less than half of Tatum's rate, I suspect Brown is way down there in an acceptable position.

To be fair, again, Tatum is young but one would hope he'd just play to his strengths better. He's shooting his career worst in TS% this season, for someone going into their 3rd year and who had what is considered a horrific sophomore year... it's shocking he's getting even worse. 42% fg and 36% 3 is borderline chucking stats. (I love the amount of 3s he's taking, that's a nice change).

[celticfan42487]

Also, when we don’t execute the proper play (as in the opposing team stops it) usually with 5-8 seconds left is not enough time to run another play on the fly.

So the ball gets dumped to Tatum and the team fully expects him to ISO as they believe he is the most capable on the team to do it.

Give it time, he’ll get there it’s a part of his growth.

Yeah, I haven't said it in this thread. But I have in a good number of game threads especially after another Tatum 2/13 kind of games and I just want it known, this is fully apart of Tatum's growth. Smart sucked on offense till his 4th year, Brown is breaking out in his 4th year.

On the team currently Kemba is the only player that is good at ISO hero ball.

But besides Kemba only Tatum is able to actually DO it.

Jaylen may be shooting from 40% from 3, but the type of 3s Tatum takes besides Kemba (and if Hayward was healthy him too) Tatum is the only one capable of DOING a step back 3 and making it with consistency.

I want Tatum to keep on doing him, he just sucks at it atm. This is a growing phase he has to work through. And with repetition it may get to the point he changes nothing but the shots start falling. With the years going on maybe he gets better at pushing off on his drives, maybe he decides to go to full floater mode on drives and starts converting.

But to the eye test, in game it's clear. Brown is maximizing who he is this year, but Tatum's ball handling and separation moves and prolific 3 point shooting gives him a much higher ceiling. And it's okay at 21 to still be figuring it out. He just needs one goto unstopable driving move and that will open up everything for him, the equivelent of when Hayward was healthy this year drive, stop, spin Dirkish fade away leaving his man at least 2 people away from him jumper.


I'd also love if we made it more of a focus on our offense to try to get Tatum on the block whenever he has a size advantage against his man. I've been loving the last 5 games we've been seeing it more, but ever since he was a rookie when Tatum has a PG or SG that isn't that big and he plays in the post he almost always converts or gets a foul. That literatlly may be the most money shot he has in in his game right now

[Feed Your Head]

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with Tatum vs Brown shot selection?

So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?

How many more times has Tatum run an isolation than Brown this year?

Stevens offense isn't running isolation plays. It's running picks and seals for all players. It's part of the reason we're doing so well with Theis and Kanter because they are accepting doing all the tough phyiscal work (but only Theis has show mastery over when to kill the pick instantly and roll to the basket when the man with the ball has gain the advantage)

Those numbers have nothing to do with shot selection, it shows the kind of flow they play in though on the average possession.

Tatum does ISO more but it's not a super high %. He ISOs 13% of his possessions which is 20th most in the NBA and equates to about 2.5 FGAs a game for him. Brown ISOs at a 6% frequency which leads to about 1 FGA a game.

When it comes to where they shoot from, 60% of Tatum's shots come from the 3 or at the rim. For Brown 63% of his shots come from the 3 or at the rim.

When it comes to this
"So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?"

The passing stats actually show Tatum is more likely to pass than Brown. Tatum has a higher pass per touch rate than Brown.

Tatum:
68 touches a game
44 passed per game
(64% of touches end up with a pass)

Brown:
48 touches per game
29 passes per game
(60% of touches end up with a pass)

Yeah shot selection is tough to show with stats. I guess contested shot rate is a stat that would give some number to it. But it also is how often Tatum drives in traffic or simply loses the ball driving compare to Brown. Who has somehow this year developed a lethal driving game where he no longer gets blocked, has a floater he can go to, and seems to get to the rim and finish at a high rate. While Tatum's drive game looks worse than rookie year.

One question I have, and I'm sorry for putting the burden on you I really appreciate these fantastic break downs you do, When you say Tatum has the ISO at the 20th most rate in the NBA. Do you mean out of EVERYONE in the NBA Tatum chooses to ISO on his possession the 20th most in the league?

For someone with the what was it the absolute dead last efficiency rate in ISOs last year that's an astoundingly fatal flaw. At 6%, somewhere less than half of Tatum's rate, I suspect Brown is way down there in an acceptable position.

To be fair, again, Tatum is young but one would hope he'd just play to his strengths better. He's shooting his career worst in TS% this season, for someone going into their 3rd year and who had what is considered a horrific sophomore year... it's shocking he's getting even worse. 42% fg and 36% 3 is borderline chucking stats. (I love the amount of 3s he's taking, that's a nice change).

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

[Duke4life831]

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with Tatum vs Brown shot selection?

So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?

How many more times has Tatum run an isolation than Brown this year?

Stevens offense isn't running isolation plays. It's running picks and seals for all players. It's part of the reason we're doing so well with Theis and Kanter because they are accepting doing all the tough phyiscal work (but only Theis has show mastery over when to kill the pick instantly and roll to the basket when the man with the ball has gain the advantage)

Those numbers have nothing to do with shot selection, it shows the kind of flow they play in though on the average possession.

Tatum does ISO more but it's not a super high %. He ISOs 13% of his possessions which is 20th most in the NBA and equates to about 2.5 FGAs a game for him. Brown ISOs at a 6% frequency which leads to about 1 FGA a game.

When it comes to where they shoot from, 60% of Tatum's shots come from the 3 or at the rim. For Brown 63% of his shots come from the 3 or at the rim.

When it comes to this
"So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?"

The passing stats actually show Tatum is more likely to pass than Brown. Tatum has a higher pass per touch rate than Brown.

Tatum:
68 touches a game
44 passed per game
(64% of touches end up with a pass)

Brown:
48 touches per game
29 passes per game
(60% of touches end up with a pass)

Yeah shot selection is tough to show with stats. I guess contested shot rate is a stat that would give some number to it. But it also is how often Tatum drives in traffic or simply loses the ball driving compare to Brown. Who has somehow this year developed a lethal driving game where he no longer gets blocked, has a floater he can go to, and seems to get to the rim and finish at a high rate. While Tatum's drive game looks worse than rookie year.

One question I have, and I'm sorry for putting the burden on you I really appreciate these fantastic break downs you do, When you say Tatum has the ISO at the 20th most rate in the NBA. Do you mean out of EVERYONE in the NBA Tatum chooses to ISO on his possession the 20th most in the league?

For someone with the what was it the absolute dead last efficiency rate in ISOs last year that's an astoundingly fatal flaw. At 6%, somewhere less than half of Tatum's rate, I suspect Brown is way down there in an acceptable position.

To be fair, again, Tatum is young but one would hope he'd just play to his strengths better. He's shooting his career worst in TS% this season, for someone going into their 3rd year and who had what is considered a horrific sophomore year... it's shocking he's getting even worse. 42% fg and 36% 3 is borderline chucking stats. (I love the amount of 3s he's taking, that's a nice change).

The 20th is out of everyone in the NBA that has played at least 20 games. But in my opinion I think the best way to look at it is to compare him with other team leaders. If you compare him to the other team leaders for ISO frequency he is 16th. So when you compare him to other team leaders for ISOing, he is pretty much right in the middle. And you guys as a team are right in the middle at 15th in ISO frequency.

Then you add in Tatum's ISOing at a 75th percentile, I would say Tatum's not ISOing at too high of a rate to disrupt any kind of offensive flow and when he does it, he is doing it at a serviceable enough rate where it doesn't hurt. Two spots are really hurting Tatum's efficiency at the moment, he is shooting 56% at the rim compared to 67% last year and he is only shooting 29% on his corner 3s. So really the upped frequency isn't hurting his efficiency, its areas that we know he can excel from but hasn't had a good start in those areas this year. Another thing to look at is he has a had a nice uptick in efficiency each month so far.

OCT: 48 TS%
NOV: 52 TS%
DEC: 55 TS%

One thing to look at when you compare both Brown and Tatum is how they get their shots. Tatum is asked to create far more than Brown. When looking at offense that is self created (ISO, PnR and Post Up)

40% of Tatum's plays come from those 3 play types. Compare that to Brown who 23% of his plays come from those play types. So Tatum is being asked to create for himself at almost twice the rate of Brown. Brown seems to be playing at an elite level as a 3rd option/not being asked to create for himself too much, while Tatum is growing at a pretty solid rate as a #1/play creation role.

[keevsnick1]

Tatum and Brown are both going to be good players, I think right now the Celtics are just asking Tatum to be a little more than he may be ready to be. They are trying to get him to be a guy who runs the offense, who can be a ball handler and have everything run through him when at his current skill level he's probably excel more as a play finisher. And thats fine, he's only in his age 21-22 season, he has time to develop and asking him to do a little too much is imo preferable to just sticking a guy in the corner all game.

With Brown I do wonder how he would fair with a larger role. In the past I always worried about his scalability, but at a 62% TS even if his efficiency declined by adding another 5 shots a game I think it would still be very good. More importantly he has developed a very good ability to generate space. Tatum may be a better "hard shot maker," but I think Jaylen may be better at generating open looks. At least for now.

[peachbucket]

Also, when we don’t execute the proper play (as in the opposing team stops it) usually with 5-8 seconds left is not enough time to run another play on the fly.

So the ball gets dumped to Tatum and the team fully expects him to ISO as they believe he is the most capable on the team to do it.

Give it time, he’ll get there it’s a part of his growth.

Yeah, I haven't said it in this thread. But I have in a good number of game threads especially after another Tatum 2/13 kind of games and I just want it known, this is fully apart of Tatum's growth. Smart sucked on offense till his 4th year, Brown is breaking out in his 4th year.

On the team currently Kemba is the only player that is good at ISO hero ball.

But besides Kemba only Tatum is able to actually DO it.

Jaylen may be shooting from 40% from 3, but the type of 3s Tatum takes besides Kemba (and if Hayward was healthy him too) Tatum is the only one capable of DOING a step back 3 and making it with consistency.

I want Tatum to keep on doing him, he just sucks at it atm. This is a growing phase he has to work through. And with repetition it may get to the point he changes nothing but the shots start falling. With the years going on maybe he gets better at pushing off on his drives, maybe he decides to go to full floater mode on drives and starts converting.

But to the eye test, in game it's clear. Brown is maximizing who he is this year, but Tatum's ball handling and separation moves and prolific 3 point shooting gives him a much higher ceiling. And it's okay at 21 to still be figuring it out. He just needs one goto unstopable driving move and that will open up everything for him, the equivelent of when Hayward was healthy this year drive, stop, spin Dirkish fade away leaving his man at least 2 people away from him jumper.


I'd also love if we made it more of a focus on our offense to try to get Tatum on the block whenever he has a size advantage against his man. I've been loving the last 5 games we've been seeing it more, but ever since he was a rookie when Tatum has a PG or SG that isn't that big and he plays in the post he almost always converts or gets a foul. That literatlly may be the most money shot he has in in his game right now

Exactly. Tatum is currently being groomed to be a no conscience primary scoring option and late game hero ball specialist. He is being encouraged to take all these extremely difficult moves/shots as part of his arsenal. He is one of only a handful of young guys in the league with the Hardenesque iso potential against ANY defender...which is very rare and valuable especially in the playoffs.