Kings General Discussion 2019-2020

[wco81]

What do you think the ceiling is for this team over the next couple of seasons? Top 4 seed? WCF?

Or more like bottom 4 seed and maybe reaching the second round?

What would be the ceiling of the team if it had drafted Luka instead of Bagley?

To be fair, I don't think Buddy or Bogdan would necessarily be the best fits with Luka because they're also good with creating shots for themselves or others (in the case of Bogdan) off the dribble. And you could really say that Fox isn't necessarily the best fit because if you make Luka the main player on the team, to score and create shots for others, you would take away a lot of Fox's touches too.

Fox broke out last year so if they drafted Luka, maybe that doesn't happen and maybe Fox wouldn't fetch much in a trade.

However, I think a good coach would find touches for more than one all-star. Because it's widely assumed that for Dallas to really become a contender, they'd need another star, not just Luka, the unicorn and a bunch of role players and spot up shooters.

[jazanetti]

What do you think the ceiling is for this team over the next couple of seasons? Top 4 seed? WCF?

Or more like bottom 4 seed and maybe reaching the second round?

What would be the ceiling of the team if it had drafted Luka instead of Bagley?

To be fair, I don't think Buddy or Bogdan would necessarily be the best fits with Luka because they're also good with creating shots for themselves or others (in the case of Bogdan) off the dribble. And you could really say that Fox isn't necessarily the best fit because if you make Luka the main player on the team, to score and create shots for others, you would take away a lot of Fox's touches too.

Fox broke out last year so if they drafted Luka, maybe that doesn't happen and maybe Fox wouldn't fetch much in a trade.

However, I think a good coach would find touches for more than one all-star. Because it's widely assumed that for Dallas to really become a contender, they'd need another star, not just Luka, the unicorn and a bunch of role players and spot up shooters.

This is definitely not about Buddy

[SacKingZZZ]

What do you think the ceiling is for this team over the next couple of seasons? Top 4 seed? WCF?

Or more like bottom 4 seed and maybe reaching the second round?

What would be the ceiling of the team if it had drafted Luka instead of Bagley?

To be fair, I don't think Buddy or Bogdan would necessarily be the best fits with Luka because they're also good with creating shots for themselves or others (in the case of Bogdan) off the dribble. And you could really say that Fox isn't necessarily the best fit because if you make Luka the main player on the team, to score and create shots for others, you would take away a lot of Fox's touches too.

Fox broke out last year so if they drafted Luka, maybe that doesn't happen and maybe Fox wouldn't fetch much in a trade.

However, I think a good coach would find touches for more than one all-star. Because it's widely assumed that for Dallas to really become a contender, they'd need another star, not just Luka, the unicorn and a bunch of role players and spot up shooters.

Personally I have not a single doubt that Luka could have been pretty good with the Kings but he and Fox wouldn't have ever been as good as they can be individually side by side. Same with Bogdan. Buddy is fine with any combination of them. Everyone thinks it was Bagley that caused Vlade to blink on Luka, it was clearly Fox. If there is a debate about a contest between who is better long term it's Fox and Luka, not Bagley.

[BoogieTime]

What do you think the ceiling is for this team over the next couple of seasons? Top 4 seed? WCF?

Or more like bottom 4 seed and maybe reaching the second round?

What would be the ceiling of the team if it had drafted Luka instead of Bagley?

To be fair, I don't think Buddy or Bogdan would necessarily be the best fits with Luka because they're also good with creating shots for themselves or others (in the case of Bogdan) off the dribble. And you could really say that Fox isn't necessarily the best fit because if you make Luka the main player on the team, to score and create shots for others, you would take away a lot of Fox's touches too.

Fox broke out last year so if they drafted Luka, maybe that doesn't happen and maybe Fox wouldn't fetch much in a trade.

However, I think a good coach would find touches for more than one all-star. Because it's widely assumed that for Dallas to really become a contender, they'd need another star, not just Luka, the unicorn and a bunch of role players and spot up shooters.

Personally I have not a single doubt that Luka could have been pretty good with the Kings but he and Fox wouldn't have ever been as good as they can be individually side by side. Same with Bogdan. Buddy is fine with any combination of them. Everyone thinks it was Bagley that caused Vlade to blink on Luka, it was clearly Fox. If there is a debate about a contest between who is better long term it's Fox and Luka, not Bagley.

That’s not a debate now either, and I have fourth a foot out the door on Fox. Tired of his motor/consistency issues. Joseph isn’t good enough, but I wonder if you substituted an aggressive/defensive pg with even adequate offense for Fox, how good the team would be doing now with Fox injured

But I was not impressed with Fox to start the season, when he looked to regress and not impact when others like Trae/Morant were showing the toast of the future at PG.

He needs to step up

[SacKingZZZ]

What do you think the ceiling is for this team over the next couple of seasons? Top 4 seed? WCF?

Or more like bottom 4 seed and maybe reaching the second round?

What would be the ceiling of the team if it had drafted Luka instead of Bagley?

To be fair, I don't think Buddy or Bogdan would necessarily be the best fits with Luka because they're also good with creating shots for themselves or others (in the case of Bogdan) off the dribble. And you could really say that Fox isn't necessarily the best fit because if you make Luka the main player on the team, to score and create shots for others, you would take away a lot of Fox's touches too.

Fox broke out last year so if they drafted Luka, maybe that doesn't happen and maybe Fox wouldn't fetch much in a trade.

However, I think a good coach would find touches for more than one all-star. Because it's widely assumed that for Dallas to really become a contender, they'd need another star, not just Luka, the unicorn and a bunch of role players and spot up shooters.

Personally I have not a single doubt that Luka could have been pretty good with the Kings but he and Fox wouldn't have ever been as good as they can be individually side by side. Same with Bogdan. Buddy is fine with any combination of them. Everyone thinks it was Bagley that caused Vlade to blink on Luka, it was clearly Fox. If there is a debate about a contest between who is better long term it's Fox and Luka, not Bagley.

That’s not a debate now either, and I have fourth a foot out the door on Fox. Tired of his motor/consistency issues. Joseph isn’t good enough, but I wonder if you substituted an aggressive/defensive pg with even adequate offense for Fox, how good the team would be doing now with Fox injured

But I was not impressed with Fox to start the season, when he looked to regress and not impact when others like Trae/Morant were showing the toast of the future at PG.

He needs to step up

What sucks about the timing of the injury is he was really starting to turn that corner. In November he was putting up 20 and 7 on decent efficiency and as the team starting to run more screen and roll for him he was looking good. Then bam, down he went in freaking practice. In a perfect world he doesn't need to be brought along slowly when he does come back.

[kalenclayton]

Walton’s accuser dropped her sexual assault case against him. It’s nice that we can move on from this (even though we won’t know if the claims were actually true or not). https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28230870/woman-drops-sexual-assault-lawsuit-kings-coach-luke-walton

[BoogieTime]

Nate Duncan and his guest were apparently discussing worst GM of the decade and both had Vlade either or 2.

I don’t want to dig up the team is killing me thread, but to reiterate, Vlade is past due. Not just the potential altering Doncic thing, but his drafting is not good sans consensus Fox, who I’m not high on relatively, his FA, trades, he’s just toast

Issue is, he was just extended, and is now tied to Luke. Additionally this might be a figurehead type thing with Vivek still doing some meddling behind the scenes

It’s tough as a fan to not believe in your team’s front office, or want them gone like this.

[BoogieTime]

DIdnt like the quotes from Bagley in the Bee about accepting coming off the bench for a few games or whatever (to paraphrase)

I don’t want him getting ahead of himself. Someone on SactownRoyalty thought he pouted a bit from not being in the game down the stretch. I’m not trying to see any entitlement from him, he better understand the team comes before him and he needs to know how much he has to improve to be ahead of others starting ahead of him

[SmellingColors]

Definitely agree. Didn't see the comments, but with the way Holmes and Bjelica have been playing it's not a good look to play one game and act like you deserve playing time over them. Especially considering Dedmon/Giles have essentially exited the rotation because of poor play.

[City of Trees]

Bagley Sr. called Grant's radio show to ask him and Doug what they think the teams offensive identity should be? 3pt shooting team or a running team.

Doug said all of the above. Mr. Bagley Sr agreed. It was an interesting conversation. It ended with him wishing Marvin plays his entire HOF career in Sactown.

Listening to his phone call took me back to Marvin's comment last night when a reporter mentioned the Kings don't run anymore. Marvin waived him off "I'm still running"

[sacking123]

Bagley Sr. called Grant's radio show to ask him and Doug what they think the teams offensive identity should be? 3pt shooting team or a running team.

Doug said all of the above. Mr. Bagley Sr agreed. It was an interesting conversation. It ended with him wishing Marvin plays his entire HOF career in Sactown.

Listening to his phone call took me back to Marvin's comment last night when a reporter mentioned the Kings don't run anymore. Marvin waived him off "I'm still running"

I hope the Luke training wheels come off mid to late February. Looks like Luke wants the team to learn how to play in the half court and work on D, but once they get it they will change gears. Fox getting injured threw a spanner in the works though.


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[KF10]

It’s going to be interesting to see how Fox and Bagley going to be incorporated in this all league slow paced system.

I still think we need to raise our pace because our best players i.e Fox, Bagley, Buddy & Holmes are better in a more uptempo system.

Gotta find the right balance.

[BoogieTime]

This team needs a direction change with Fox/Bagley not ready to play winning ball

Go young, trade the vets, give Fox/Bagley/James/Guy/Gabriel full run and get a much better pick

Or keep the hard nosed team we had. Move Fox at his highest value. Bring in Van Vleet. Make Bagley earn his minutes. Etc

No point in treadmilling the middle

[sacking123]

This team needs a direction change with Fox/Bagley not ready to play winning ball

Go young, trade the vets, give Fox/Bagley/James/Guy/Gabriel full run and get a much better pick

Or keep the hard nosed team we had. Move Fox at his highest value. Bring in Van Vleet. Make Bagley earn his minutes. Etc

No point in treadmilling the middle

I would give them some more time to be honest.
If you go the route your suggesting that means trade Buddy and Bogi?

[SupaFly1978]

I know it's early but so far I'm not a fan of Walton at all, especially his rotations. We only really have 3 guys coming off the bench, Giles, Ferrell, and Dedmon never play, this team is obviously not going anywhere any time soon so what is the point in having such a short rotation??? They should have never fired Joerger.

[BoogieTime]

This team needs a direction change with Fox/Bagley not ready to play winning ball

Go young, trade the vets, give Fox/Bagley/James/Guy/Gabriel full run and get a much better pick

Or keep the hard nosed team we had. Move Fox at his highest value. Bring in Van Vleet. Make Bagley earn his minutes. Etc

No point in treadmilling the middle

I would give them some more time to be honest.
If you go the route your suggesting that means trade Buddy and Bogi?

Yes. Barnes. All except maybe Holmes, and see if he can fit with Bags

No point treadmilling. If Fox/Bagley aren’t ready to win, or we need more high end talent

[sacking123]

This team needs a direction change with Fox/Bagley not ready to play winning ball

Go young, trade the vets, give Fox/Bagley/James/Guy/Gabriel full run and get a much better pick

Or keep the hard nosed team we had. Move Fox at his highest value. Bring in Van Vleet. Make Bagley earn his minutes. Etc

No point in treadmilling the middle

I would give them some more time to be honest.
If you go the route your suggesting that means trade Buddy and Bogi?

Yes. Barnes. All except maybe Holmes, and see if he can fit with Bags

No point treadmilling. If Fox/Bagley aren’t ready to win, or we need more high end talent

I definitely think this is a possibility, but not with the current make up.
HB and Buddy extensions make it difficult. Realistically it would need a whole blowup of the organisation from the top down.
I’m not sure Vivek would do it.

As I mentioned, this group needs more time together, Walton needs
The real concerning thing for me is the players seemed like they were playing for each other, playing for Walton, playing some nice D and giving great effort and heart. Then Bagley and Fox come back and it changes. That’s not a great look after displaying similar problems earlier in the season.
There’s something wrong there and I can’t put my finger on it because the obvious things just don’t look likely.



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[BoogieTime]

I would give them some more time to be honest.
If you go the route your suggesting that means trade Buddy and Bogi?

Yes. Barnes. All except maybe Holmes, and see if he can fit with Bags

No point treadmilling. If Fox/Bagley aren’t ready to win, or we need more high end talent

I definitely think this is a possibility, but not with the current make up.
HB and Buddy extensions make it difficult. Realistically it would need a whole blowup of the organisation from the top down.
I’m not sure Vivek would do it.

As I mentioned, this group needs more time together, Walton needs
The real concerning thing for me is the players seemed like they were playing for each other, playing for Walton, playing some nice D and giving great effort and heart. Then Bagley and Fox come back and it changes. That’s not a great look after displaying similar problems earlier in the season.
There’s something wrong there and I can’t put my finger on it because the obvious things just don’t look likely.



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That gets into part 2. Bagley just is so raw, unrefined and not ready to play winning ball, now, and what looks to be the near future (next year too probably). Fox, his on/off numbers have been fine, but I feel substituting CoJo’s balls out intensity for Fox’s laid back, may be messing with the identity. It’s my concern with Fox that his motor just isn’t what it needs to be, despite his skill set. I don’t know if he fits the hard edged team we were building. I miss that team of a few weeks back. Even if it was a treadmill team, that’s a team you could live with. So Id entertain moving both at peak value and bringing in players that fit Walton’s defense first style. I don’t think CoJo is quite good enough, but I’d look at Van Vleet, or what Boston would need for Smart etc.

[BoogieTime]

I initially did not want the coaching change. Then I defended Walton during the stretch without Fox/Bagley. But now, is there any reason why this team is tanking, with arguably a more talented roster, other than he’s worse than Joerger?

[SmellingColors]

I don't think so. The fact that he's alienating players (Buddy, Dedmon, Giles) does not bode well either considering he was supposed to be a players coach. Vlade never did his due diligence hiring coaches and I never like the idea of hiring a head coach immediately after they've been fired elsewhere. Combine that with the lawsuit and his inexperience with establishing any kind of winning system as a coach and it was a recipe for disaster.