Regular Season Game 33: Atlanta Hawks (6-27) at Orlando Magic (14-18) - 7pm ET

[MagicFrenchie]

This is actually a blessing in disguise
This loss is I think the worst loss of this decade, hopeffuly we'll blow up this roster with trades , this is obvious things are wrong here.

[pepe1991]

Oh wow, would you look at that. The Magic have 40 of their 89 shots taken by Vuc and Fourniyay, our youth are basically out of the playbook, and we get **** on by a terrible team and lose. Do we have to see this same script play out 50 more times before we realise its a losing formula?

And for those who think out youth arent ready right now, you are sorely mistaken. This is a case of our stupid coach thinking that the future of this team is the Vuc and Fourniyay pick n roll, and not Fultz and Isaac. Its borderline insanity at this point.

I honestly **** hate this team. I hate them. I want Vuc and Fournier to be miserable and lose, its what the deserve.

Who you refer as youth and who is "ready" among them? Did you watch this game ? Magic young starting PG was destroyed by undrafted G league guard with 20 nba games -experience. On both ends.
Ready for Prime time baby

Last few games just show that Fultz should have never been promoted to starter in first place.
Instad, Magic should have used MLE on another guard ( Seth Curry) and trade Gordon in offseason for more shooters. Or not re-sign Vučević and just kickstart new rebuild.

But that would require planning, risking and being pro-active. Nothing that Hammond or Weltman ever showed they are willing to do.

[Jiwol]

What a crap. Blow this **** up. It's now or never. Leave JI, trade everybody else.

[paperboymafia]

Yikes. So glad I didn't stay up for this one.

Embarrassing.

[paperboymafia]

Hawks roster is meca for pub- quiz hard questions.
Who are Jones, Fernando, Goodwin, Bembry ? Sounds like a members boybend

Pathetic loss.

No excuses.

[Skybox]

what do you expect with Iwundu in, Fultz goes 1-7. Isaac took 13 shots, Ross 11 shots. so those 4 took 64 of 90 shots.

Pretty much nothing that Isaac gets at the offensive end comes within the framework of the offense. He has to go out and get it with transition opportunities or offensive rebounds. This game was no exception. It's exceedingly rare that his cuts to the basket are rewarded. Fultz will find him, but that's about it. We saw consecutive possessions at the end of the first half where Fultz found him for an easy finish on the first, but then Augustin didn't recognize the same opportunity on the next possession and kicked it back out to Ross instead.

We run the same actions over and over again for the same players and Isaac's role is as a screener/decoy. If that's how people want it, that's fine, but lets not pretend that his 13 field goal attempts are evidence of his role within the offense. I really don't mind Clifford, but I hate his offensive hierarchy. Vucevic, Ross, Augustin, and Fournier are not the future of this franchise. They aren't taking us anywhere meaningful. It's very problematic to me that our offense is designed for these guys. If our offense is going to be dreadful regardless (it is), then we should be committed to developing the players that have a chance to be a part of something meaningful down the road. Letting someone inbound the ball or letting them handle dribble handoffs isn't involving them and it isn't helping to develop their skills.

13 shots isn't really small amount.
And only one of FGM was assisted by Futlz btw, other two assisted were from Dj and Vuc but that's irrelevant.

Problem with Isaac's offense is that he really can't do much but catch&shoot at average to below average rate ( 36,8% for 3 while wide open) and point blank dunks and layups. This year he is around 35% mid range shooter, that's really bad.
He is 6'11 he will never take people off dribble, just like he will never be some great passer.
There is just so much you can do with him on offense given his skillset.

We all want young players to do more but we also need to remember what happend when team tried to force-fed Gordon into "star" two years ago, making him borderline delusional about himeslf, and now, 3 years later he player with bad offensive habits because years ago he was told it's fine for him to play outside offensiv scheme and pretty much hijack offense by taking shots off dribble, off rythm, stepback 3s, fadeaway 2s, postups 15 feet away from rim without intention to drive on them....

Maybe play him as screener more and teach him how to roll? I would try that, but even that is kind of play you can't play with Fultz who gets ignord on high pick&rolls because nobody will rush to guard 25% three point shooter.

But we are as usual running in circles of same problem . No ballhandling -scorer who is treat to open floor for others. No player that will have gravitiy that will lure defenders from paint and result is clogged paint and defenders being glued to our shooters.

I'm not biggest D'angelo Russell fan, but at this stage i really don't see any other objective target how this team, without major tanking can land anybody who is actually star, fits timeline and fill needs.

I like both Fultz and Isaac but people are delirious when our two “untouchable” guys get maybe 15 ppg combined...and then pick apart the games of DLo or CJ

[drsd]

What we learned in this game is that Gordon is better than Iwundu.

Not really sure what to take from that.

[pepe1991]

What we learned in this game is that Gordon is better than Iwundu.

Not really sure what to take from that.

That iwundu might not be new Jimmy Butler ?

[Xatticus]

what do you expect with Iwundu in, Fultz goes 1-7. Isaac took 13 shots, Ross 11 shots. so those 4 took 64 of 90 shots.

Pretty much nothing that Isaac gets at the offensive end comes within the framework of the offense. He has to go out and get it with transition opportunities or offensive rebounds. This game was no exception. It's exceedingly rare that his cuts to the basket are rewarded. Fultz will find him, but that's about it. We saw consecutive possessions at the end of the first half where Fultz found him for an easy finish on the first, but then Augustin didn't recognize the same opportunity on the next possession and kicked it back out to Ross instead.

We run the same actions over and over again for the same players and Isaac's role is as a screener/decoy. If that's how people want it, that's fine, but lets not pretend that his 13 field goal attempts are evidence of his role within the offense. I really don't mind Clifford, but I hate his offensive hierarchy. Vucevic, Ross, Augustin, and Fournier are not the future of this franchise. They aren't taking us anywhere meaningful. It's very problematic to me that our offense is designed for these guys. If our offense is going to be dreadful regardless (it is), then we should be committed to developing the players that have a chance to be a part of something meaningful down the road. Letting someone inbound the ball or letting them handle dribble handoffs isn't involving them and it isn't helping to develop their skills.

13 shots isn't really small amount.
And only one of FGM was assisted by Futlz btw, other two assisted were from Dj and Vuc but that's irrelevant.

Problem with Isaac's offense is that he really can't do much but catch&shoot at average to below average rate ( 36,8% for 3 while wide open) and point blank dunks and layups. This year he is around 35% mid range shooter, that's really bad.
He is 6'11 he will never take people off dribble, just like he will never be some great passer.
There is just so much you can do with him on offense given his skillset.

We all want young players to do more but we also need to remember what happend when team tried to force-fed Gordon into "star" two years ago, making him borderline delusional about himeslf, and now, 3 years later he player with bad offensive habits because years ago he was told it's fine for him to play outside offensiv scheme and pretty much hijack offense by taking shots off dribble, off rythm, stepback 3s, fadeaway 2s, postups 15 feet away from rim without intention to drive on them....

Maybe play him as screener more and teach him how to roll? I would try that, but even that is kind of play you can't play with Fultz who gets ignord on high pick&rolls because nobody will rush to guard 25% three point shooter.

But we are as usual running in circles of same problem . No ballhandling -scorer who is treat to open floor for others. No player that will have gravitiy that will lure defenders from paint and result is clogged paint and defenders being glued to our shooters.

I'm not biggest D'angelo Russell fan, but at this stage i really don't see any other objective target how this team, without major tanking can land anybody who is actually star, fits timeline and fill needs.

I've been putting this off because it is going to be long-winded, but I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how NBA offenses work. 13 shots means nothing without context. Lets dive into that context...

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

1. Fultz had the edge on Huerter. Isaac slipped a screen and turned to the basket, Fultz kept driving and gave a wraparound to Isaac when Isaac's man helped on Fultz. Isaac was fouled. No FGA
2. Isaac screens for Vucevic and Vucevic screens for Fultz. It's difficult to tell what the Magic were trying to do. They might've been trying to run something, but it doesn't look like anything I've seen. Fultz trips and passes the ball to Isaac at the elbow. Isaac turns around into a step back jumper that he misses. 0-1
3. Isaac feeds Vucevic in the post, who passes to a cutting Fultz who misses the dunk. Isaac grabs the rebound and drives to his right before stepping back into a jump shot that he misses. 0-2
4. Hunter botches his transition defense and sags to cover Iwundu, not realizing that Reddish was already covering him. They are essentially doubling Iwundu away from the ball. Vucevic passes to a wide open Isaac behind the three-point line and immediately slides into the paint and calls for the ball when Collins rotates to Isaac. Isaac fakes a three-point attempt and Collins attacks to close out. Isaac puts the ball on the floor and drives to the basket for a dunk. 1-3 (Vucevic assist)
5. Fultz steals a pass intended for Collins and quickly gives it to Fournier in transition. Fournier misses a layup and Isaac follows the miss and dunks it. 2-4
6. Fultz pushes in transition before Atlanta's defense is set. Isaac follows him in. The defense collapses and Fultz lays it off to Isaac who is fouled. No FGA
7. Isaac steals the ball and pushes the ball up the floor. He misses a layup. 2-5
8. Augustin passes to Isaac behind the three-point line. Isaac immediately attacks Carter off the dribble, hits the layup, and draws the foul. 3-6 (Augustin assist)
9. Ross drives to his right and misses a dunk, but Isaac follows and dunks. 4-7
10. Fultz rejects an Isaac screen and drives to the basket. Isaac follows him in. Fultz drops it off to Isaac who lays it in. 5-8
11. Fultz passes to Isaac behind the three-point line. Isaac misses a three. 5-9
12. Fultz misses a jumper. Isaac misses the tip in follow. 5-10
13. Fultz drives and kicks it out to an open Isaac who misses the three-point attempt. 5-11
14. Fultz drives and Isaac follows him in. Fultz is about to pull it back out, but realizes that Isaac has sealed Collins. Fultz passes to Isaac under the basket and Isaac is fouled. No FGA
15. Augustin drives and lays it off to Isaac who misses a shot challenged by Collins at the rim. 5-12
16. Fournier misses a three. Isaac follows it and dunks it. 6-13

The important thing to understand here is that none of this was designed offense. Perhaps #2 was going to be a set play, but it likely plays out completely different if Fultz doesn't stumble. 5 of Isaac's 13 field goal attempts came from offensive rebounds. Augustin and Vucevic didn't set Isaac up for those made baskets. He caught the ball above the three-point line and did precisely what you keep saying he can't do. He put the ball on the floor and drove to the basket. Everything else, save for one pass from Augustin, was set up by Fultz. Isaac is a willing cutter. He works his ass off at both ends of the floor, but Fultz is the only guy that manages to find him.

You can't really point to 13 field goals attempts and say he is involved. His usage (18%) tells a different story, but even that is buoyed by his offensive rebounding and transition opportunities resulting from his defense. He is basically not involved in our offense whatsoever. If Fultz wasn't in the starting lineup, his usage would be substantially lower.

This is what NBA offense looks like:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

This should look very familiar because we run something similar to create shots for Fournier. We run it a lot. We feed Vucevic in the post a lot. Our offense is designed to create shots for Vucevic, Fournier, and Ross. That's pretty much it. Sometimes we set a back screen to get the ball in to Gordon in the post when he has a mismatch, but most of his offense comes from isolations after the designed play has broken down or when he feels compelled to hoist up a shot. When Augustin or Fournier get the ball in open play, they will call for a screen and run the two-man game pretty much every damned time. Once this happens, the ball does not come back out. It's 2 on 5 and it is really easy to stop when a team is prepared for it.

It's annoying constantly reading people complain that players lack aggressiveness or the skills to do more. It simply isn't accurate. It's not happenstance that some players are more involved. It's by design. The problem with this is that the players that we cater our offense to are simply not very good. Fournier shouldn't have the ball in his hands. His decision-making sucks. He is a shooter. That's it. Vucevic has a pretty terrible shot selection. This is why he has had a negative ORPM in every season of his career prior to last year. His true shooting percentages over the course of his career have been abysmal for a big. Bigs tend to have higher true shooting percentages because they get a lot of easy opportunities at the rim. Vucevic is like Enes Kanter with a permanent green light to do whatever the hell he wants to.

I'm not actually arguing that Isaac should get more shots, but I want him involved in the offense. Would this hurt our offense right now? Perhaps... but not a whole lot, because we are a very bad offensive team as is. I simply don't care whether or not it harms our chances of getting to the playoffs this season. I care about how we are handling the development of the players that might actually drag us out from this hole we have been stuck in for years. The reason that our offense is bad isn't because of the guys that aren't involved, it is because we have a lot of money tied up in players that just aren't very good offensively and we keep forcing our offense through them because they are the best we have right now. You don't double down on that. You move on from what is broken and try to sort out the problem.

[j-ragg]

All this new "infrastructure" and expertise and uh... workout equipment? And it sure feels like not that much has changed in this organization.

[swarlesbarkley]

Pretty much nothing that Isaac gets at the offensive end comes within the framework of the offense. He has to go out and get it with transition opportunities or offensive rebounds. This game was no exception. It's exceedingly rare that his cuts to the basket are rewarded. Fultz will find him, but that's about it. We saw consecutive possessions at the end of the first half where Fultz found him for an easy finish on the first, but then Augustin didn't recognize the same opportunity on the next possession and kicked it back out to Ross instead.

We run the same actions over and over again for the same players and Isaac's role is as a screener/decoy. If that's how people want it, that's fine, but lets not pretend that his 13 field goal attempts are evidence of his role within the offense. I really don't mind Clifford, but I hate his offensive hierarchy. Vucevic, Ross, Augustin, and Fournier are not the future of this franchise. They aren't taking us anywhere meaningful. It's very problematic to me that our offense is designed for these guys. If our offense is going to be dreadful regardless (it is), then we should be committed to developing the players that have a chance to be a part of something meaningful down the road. Letting someone inbound the ball or letting them handle dribble handoffs isn't involving them and it isn't helping to develop their skills.

13 shots isn't really small amount.
And only one of FGM was assisted by Futlz btw, other two assisted were from Dj and Vuc but that's irrelevant.

Problem with Isaac's offense is that he really can't do much but catch&shoot at average to below average rate ( 36,8% for 3 while wide open) and point blank dunks and layups. This year he is around 35% mid range shooter, that's really bad.
He is 6'11 he will never take people off dribble, just like he will never be some great passer.
There is just so much you can do with him on offense given his skillset.

We all want young players to do more but we also need to remember what happend when team tried to force-fed Gordon into "star" two years ago, making him borderline delusional about himeslf, and now, 3 years later he player with bad offensive habits because years ago he was told it's fine for him to play outside offensiv scheme and pretty much hijack offense by taking shots off dribble, off rythm, stepback 3s, fadeaway 2s, postups 15 feet away from rim without intention to drive on them....

Maybe play him as screener more and teach him how to roll? I would try that, but even that is kind of play you can't play with Fultz who gets ignord on high pick&rolls because nobody will rush to guard 25% three point shooter.

But we are as usual running in circles of same problem . No ballhandling -scorer who is treat to open floor for others. No player that will have gravitiy that will lure defenders from paint and result is clogged paint and defenders being glued to our shooters.

I'm not biggest D'angelo Russell fan, but at this stage i really don't see any other objective target how this team, without major tanking can land anybody who is actually star, fits timeline and fill needs.

I'm not actually arguing that Isaac should get more shots, but I want him involved in the offense. Would this hurt our offense right now? Perhaps... but not a whole lot, because we are a very bad offensive team as is. I simply don't care whether or not it harms our chances of getting to the playoffs this season. I care about how we are handling the development of the players that might actually drag us out from this hole we have been stuck in for years. The reason that our offense is bad isn't because of the guys that aren't involved, it is because we have a lot of money tied up in players that just aren't very good offensively and we keep forcing our offense through them because they are the best we have right now. You don't double down on that. You move on from what is broken and try to sort out the problem.

Yeah that's the thing that gets me - we're bad enough offensively already, why not try to get other guys involved? Sure it can get worse stat-wise while we're adjusting (and even after we're adjusted), but it really wouldn't matter too much in wins and losses on the season. Our entire organization has such a conservative mentality with how we play and who we play - there's practically no risks taken at all.

[Last Guardian]

Its a blessing in disguise. More losses like this lead to actual change.

[tiderulz]

Pretty much nothing that Isaac gets at the offensive end comes within the framework of the offense. He has to go out and get it with transition opportunities or offensive rebounds. This game was no exception. It's exceedingly rare that his cuts to the basket are rewarded. Fultz will find him, but that's about it. We saw consecutive possessions at the end of the first half where Fultz found him for an easy finish on the first, but then Augustin didn't recognize the same opportunity on the next possession and kicked it back out to Ross instead.

We run the same actions over and over again for the same players and Isaac's role is as a screener/decoy. If that's how people want it, that's fine, but lets not pretend that his 13 field goal attempts are evidence of his role within the offense. I really don't mind Clifford, but I hate his offensive hierarchy. Vucevic, Ross, Augustin, and Fournier are not the future of this franchise. They aren't taking us anywhere meaningful. It's very problematic to me that our offense is designed for these guys. If our offense is going to be dreadful regardless (it is), then we should be committed to developing the players that have a chance to be a part of something meaningful down the road. Letting someone inbound the ball or letting them handle dribble handoffs isn't involving them and it isn't helping to develop their skills.

13 shots isn't really small amount.
And only one of FGM was assisted by Futlz btw, other two assisted were from Dj and Vuc but that's irrelevant.

Problem with Isaac's offense is that he really can't do much but catch&shoot at average to below average rate ( 36,8% for 3 while wide open) and point blank dunks and layups. This year he is around 35% mid range shooter, that's really bad.
He is 6'11 he will never take people off dribble, just like he will never be some great passer.
There is just so much you can do with him on offense given his skillset.

We all want young players to do more but we also need to remember what happend when team tried to force-fed Gordon into "star" two years ago, making him borderline delusional about himeslf, and now, 3 years later he player with bad offensive habits because years ago he was told it's fine for him to play outside offensiv scheme and pretty much hijack offense by taking shots off dribble, off rythm, stepback 3s, fadeaway 2s, postups 15 feet away from rim without intention to drive on them....

Maybe play him as screener more and teach him how to roll? I would try that, but even that is kind of play you can't play with Fultz who gets ignord on high pick&rolls because nobody will rush to guard 25% three point shooter.

But we are as usual running in circles of same problem . No ballhandling -scorer who is treat to open floor for others. No player that will have gravitiy that will lure defenders from paint and result is clogged paint and defenders being glued to our shooters.

I'm not biggest D'angelo Russell fan, but at this stage i really don't see any other objective target how this team, without major tanking can land anybody who is actually star, fits timeline and fill needs.

I've been putting this off because it is going to be long-winded, but I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how NBA offenses work. 13 shots means nothing without context. Lets dive into that context...

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

1. Fultz had the edge on Huerter. Isaac slipped a screen and turned to the basket, Fultz kept driving and gave a wraparound to Isaac when Isaac's man helped on Fultz. Isaac was fouled. No FGA
2. Isaac screens for Vucevic and Vucevic screens for Fultz. It's difficult to tell what the Magic were trying to do. They might've been trying to run something, but it doesn't look like anything I've seen. Fultz trips and passes the ball to Isaac at the elbow. Isaac turns around into a step back jumper that he misses. 0-1
3. Isaac feeds Vucevic in the post, who passes to a cutting Fultz who misses the dunk. Isaac grabs the rebound and drives to his right before stepping back into a jump shot that he misses. 0-2
4. Hunter botches his transition defense and sags to cover Iwundu, not realizing that Reddish was already covering him. They are essentially doubling Iwundu away from the ball. Vucevic passes to a wide open Isaac behind the three-point line and immediately slides into the paint and calls for the ball when Collins rotates to Isaac. Isaac fakes a three-point attempt and Collins attacks to close out. Isaac puts the ball on the floor and drives to the basket for a dunk. 1-3 (Vucevic assist)
5. Fultz steals a pass intended for Collins and quickly gives it to Fournier in transition. Fournier misses a layup and Isaac follows the miss and dunks it. 2-4
6. Fultz pushes in transition before Atlanta's defense is set. Isaac follows him in. The defense collapses and Fultz lays it off to Isaac who is fouled. No FGA
7. Isaac steals the ball and pushes the ball up the floor. He misses a layup. 2-5
8. Augustin passes to Isaac behind the three-point line. Isaac immediately attacks Carter off the dribble, hits the layup, and draws the foul. 3-6 (Augustin assist)
9. Ross drives to his right and misses a dunk, but Isaac follows and dunks. 4-7
10. Fultz rejects an Isaac screen and drives to the basket. Isaac follows him in. Fultz drops it off to Isaac who lays it in. 5-8
11. Fultz passes to Isaac behind the three-point line. Isaac misses a three. 5-9
12. Fultz misses a jumper. Isaac misses the tip in follow. 5-10
13. Fultz drives and kicks it out to an open Isaac who misses the three-point attempt. 5-11
14. Fultz drives and Isaac follows him in. Fultz is about to pull it back out, but realizes that Isaac has sealed Collins. Fultz passes to Isaac under the basket and Isaac is fouled. No FGA
15. Augustin drives and lays it off to Isaac who misses a shot challenged by Collins at the rim. 5-12
16. Fournier misses a three. Isaac follows it and dunks it. 6-13

The important thing to understand here is that none of this was designed offense. Perhaps #2 was going to be a set play, but it likely plays out completely different if Fultz doesn't stumble. 5 of Isaac's 13 field goal attempts came from offensive rebounds. Augustin and Vucevic didn't set Isaac up for those made baskets. He caught the ball above the three-point line and did precisely what you keep saying he can't do. He put the ball on the floor and drove to the basket. Everything else, save for one pass from Augustin, was set up by Fultz. Isaac is a willing cutter. He works his ass off at both ends of the floor, but Fultz is the only guy that manages to find him.

You can't really point to 13 field goals attempts and say he is involved. His usage (18%) tells a different story, but even that is buoyed by his offensive rebounding and transition opportunities resulting from his defense. He is basically not involved in our offense whatsoever. If Fultz wasn't in the starting lineup, his usage would be substantially lower.

This is what NBA offense looks like:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

This should look very familiar because we run something similar to create shots for Fournier. We run it a lot. We feed Vucevic in the post a lot. Our offense is designed to create shots for Vucevic, Fournier, and Ross. That's pretty much it. Sometimes we set a back screen to get the ball in to Gordon in the post when he has a mismatch, but most of his offense comes from isolations after the designed play has broken down or when he feels compelled to hoist up a shot. When Augustin or Fournier get the ball in open play, they will call for a screen and run the two-man game pretty much every damned time. Once this happens, the ball does not come back out. It's 2 on 5 and it is really easy to stop when a team is prepared for it.

It's annoying constantly reading people complain that players lack aggressiveness or the skills to do more. It simply isn't accurate. It's not happenstance that some players are more involved. It's by design. The problem with this is that the players that we cater our offense to are simply not very good. Fournier shouldn't have the ball in his hands. His decision-making sucks. He is a shooter. That's it. Vucevic has a pretty terrible shot selection. This is why he has had a negative ORPM in every season of his career prior to last year. His true shooting percentages over the course of his career have been abysmal for a big. Bigs tend to have higher true shooting percentages because they get a lot of easy opportunities at the rim. Vucevic is like Enes Kanter with a permanent green light to do whatever the hell he wants to.

I'm not actually arguing that Isaac should get more shots, but I want him involved in the offense. Would this hurt our offense right now? Perhaps... but not a whole lot, because we are a very bad offensive team as is. I simply don't care whether or not it harms our chances of getting to the playoffs this season. I care about how we are handling the development of the players that might actually drag us out from this hole we have been stuck in for years. The reason that our offense is bad isn't because of the guys that aren't involved, it is because we have a lot of money tied up in players that just aren't very good offensively and we keep forcing our offense through them because they are the best we have right now. You don't double down on that. You move on from what is broken and try to sort out the problem.

and that fault lies on Clifford. he isnt changing his offense.

[j-ragg]

Its a blessing in disguise. More losses like this lead to actual change.

Feels like I've said this in game threads for years.

[Furinkazan]

Its a blessing in disguise. More losses like this lead to actual change.

Feels like I've said this in game threads for years.

change?here?
delusional