Game 29: Cleveland Cavaliers (7-21) vs. Memphis Grizzlies (10-18) - 7:00 PM ET

[Stillwater]

My guess was 35 if they didn't make harmful trades (Clarkson for Exum for instance has some upside if Exum doesn't immediately get hurt) and if they make some progress with what they're being taught

Given the softness of their remaining schedule it seems doable, but a lot of stuff can happen to derail progress

35 would be a lot at this point.
I mean with the line ups their running it's obvious developing core pieces is the top priority not playing the best line up to win

[JonFromVA]

My guess was 35 if they didn't make harmful trades (Clarkson for Exum for instance has some upside if Exum doesn't immediately get hurt) and if they make some progress with what they're being taught

Given the softness of their remaining schedule it seems doable, but a lot of stuff can happen to derail progress

35 would be a lot at this point.
I mean with the line ups their running it's obvious developing core pieces is the top priority not playing the best line up to win

I didn't think Garland would struggle this much or that Collins shooting would regress or that Windler wouldn't even play, but I did expect it to take some time for Beilein to implement his systems. If things do start clicking and with the weaker schedule ... maybe it's possible? They'd have to play around .500 the rest of the way so still an optimistic projection based on the presumption of competent coaching and not hard tanking.

[Stillwater]

My guess was 35 if they didn't make harmful trades (Clarkson for Exum for instance has some upside if Exum doesn't immediately get hurt) and if they make some progress with what they're being taught

Given the softness of their remaining schedule it seems doable, but a lot of stuff can happen to derail progress

35 would be a lot at this point.
I mean with the line ups their running it's obvious developing core pieces is the top priority not playing the best line up to win

I didn't think Garland would struggle this much or that Collins shooting would regress or that Windler wouldn't even play, but I did expect it to take some time for Beilein to implement his systems. If things do start clicking and with the weaker schedule ... maybe it's possible? They'd have to play around .500 the rest of the way so still an optimistic projection based on the presumption of competent coaching and not hard tanking.

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

[LivingLegend]

35 would be a lot at this point.
I mean with the line ups their running it's obvious developing core pieces is the top priority not playing the best line up to win

I didn't think Garland would struggle this much or that Collins shooting would regress or that Windler wouldn't even play, but I did expect it to take some time for Beilein to implement his systems. If things do start clicking and with the weaker schedule ... maybe it's possible? They'd have to play around .500 the rest of the way so still an optimistic projection based on the presumption of competent coaching and not hard tanking.

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

[Stillwater]

I didn't think Garland would struggle this much or that Collins shooting would regress or that Windler wouldn't even play, but I did expect it to take some time for Beilein to implement his systems. If things do start clicking and with the weaker schedule ... maybe it's possible? They'd have to play around .500 the rest of the way so still an optimistic projection based on the presumption of competent coaching and not hard tanking.

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

There is nothing about Beileins system that worked in college that is working with these core players not while the vets are the best players and not initiators .If the org decides to accept that before they have seen more than 1 season seems unlikely but if there is no obvious improvement soon that could ensure pressure from the top to be enough to force Altman's hand

[LivingLegend]

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

There is nothing about Beileins system that worked in college that is working with these core players not while the vets are the best players and not initiators .If the org decides to accept that before they have seen more than 1 season seems unlikely but if there is no obvious improvement soon that could ensure pressure from the top to be enough to force Altman's hand

What type of changes are you referring to?

[JonFromVA]

I didn't think Garland would struggle this much or that Collins shooting would regress or that Windler wouldn't even play, but I did expect it to take some time for Beilein to implement his systems. If things do start clicking and with the weaker schedule ... maybe it's possible? They'd have to play around .500 the rest of the way so still an optimistic projection based on the presumption of competent coaching and not hard tanking.

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

Even great passers are going to struggle when the paint is packed and the passing lanes are clogged. They need time for chemistry to develop and learn how the system can help them, but also proper floor spacing, screening, and shooters ready to knock down those open shots.

Also TT and Henson have to be legit threats on the P&R or we need to stop running it with them on the floor - have em go set screens for shooters instead.

[LivingLegend]

Yeah I would not be surprised if something exploded if it turns out things hit the fan for Altman despite the obvious bad fit /repairable shooting issues / overall lack of motivation sinking in accross the roster once JC got dumped for basically nothing etc. as excuses Beileins system may prove too much of a struggle and this org will have to decide. If it's young core would be better off in a less pass dependent non iso system or if they are all committed to his vision where they keep him and all core pieces going forward.
I am not sold the assignments he is utilizing is going to ever be successful in the nba other than for current players who are not playing or are in LTD roles of Windler, Nance, McKinney and obviously Love Sexton and KPJ are not as good as they could be. Garland is a mystery for the future imo, shows some nice game skills but really just not enough size strength etc without being a better shooter or cutting down the bad passes.

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

Even great passers are going to struggle when the paint is packed and the passing lanes are clogged. They need time for chemistry to develop and learn how the system can help them, but also proper floor spacing, screening, and shooters ready to knock down those open shots.

Also TT and Henson have to be legit threats on the P&R or we need to stop running it with them on the floor - have em go set screens for shooters instead.

True but Ive always wondered how much Tristan being more of a traditional Center has hurt the offense--as good as he is finishing PR and rebounding. Like I said in another thread his inability to pass and morph into a black hole on offense really kills spacing and ball movement. Being able to dump the ball down low and kick it back out is something the Cavs simply cannot do right now.

So basically the entire offense (that Ive noticed) is all of the guards running around the perimeter doing dribble handoffs. The ball movemnet doesnt look crisp or decisive. Maybe that will come with experience.

[JonFromVA]

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

Even great passers are going to struggle when the paint is packed and the passing lanes are clogged. They need time for chemistry to develop and learn how the system can help them, but also proper floor spacing, screening, and shooters ready to knock down those open shots.

Also TT and Henson have to be legit threats on the P&R or we need to stop running it with them on the floor - have em go set screens for shooters instead.

True but Ive always wondered how much Tristan being more of a traditional Center has hurt the offense--as good as he is finishing PR and rebounding. Like I said in another thread his inability to pass and morph into a black hole on offense really kills spacing and ball movement. Being able to dump the ball down low and kick it back out is something the Cavs simply cannot do right now.

So basically the entire offense (that Ive noticed) is all of the guards running around the perimeter doing dribble handoffs. The ball movemnet doesnt look crisp or decisive. Maybe that will come with experience.

We just can't let Tristan's man hangout in the paint without making him pay for it. Technically TT grabbing the offensive board does that, but it frustrates the offensive execution. Having Tristan screen someone on the perimeter forces the issue ... either his man comes out to help, someone else helps, or we get an open shot.

Still means nothing if we get the good look and can't bury it. Kevin is our most reliable 3pt shooter and we're trying to trade him...

[Stillwater]

I dont think anything is changing this year. I think the FO understands that this is year 1 of JBs system and roster is really young. What happens next year with the progression of Sexton/Garland/Porter, ect will be the deciding factor if this is going to be the longterm fit or not.

Beilein runs a pass heavy offense if I remember correct and frankly the Cavs dont have a lot of great passers on the team. This is where the crazy amount of turnovers are coming from. The Cavs in the offseason have to reshape the roster with players that will fit their system of what they are trying to run.

Right now its in a weird middle ground of having TT/Love yet running the offense a lot through the rookies. They need to pick a direction at the deadline/offseason and go out and aggressively aquire players that fit the timeline of this team while also fitting the system the team is trying to run to be successful

There is nothing about Beileins system that worked in college that is working with these core players not while the vets are the best players and not initiators .If the org decides to accept that before they have seen more than 1 season seems unlikely but if there is no obvious improvement soon that could ensure pressure from the top to be enough to force Altman's hand

What type of changes are you referring to?

coach less likely than player movement during the season but not impossible if they get stuck being unable to move Love for value at the DL and to a lesser degree if they decide to pay TT this summer instead of trading him.
I could definitely see Altman sitting down with Beilein if he hasn't already and trying to work out something as far as player movement including core pieces swapped for better fits from other rosters..

[LivingLegend]

Even great passers are going to struggle when the paint is packed and the passing lanes are clogged. They need time for chemistry to develop and learn how the system can help them, but also proper floor spacing, screening, and shooters ready to knock down those open shots.

Also TT and Henson have to be legit threats on the P&R or we need to stop running it with them on the floor - have em go set screens for shooters instead.

True but Ive always wondered how much Tristan being more of a traditional Center has hurt the offense--as good as he is finishing PR and rebounding. Like I said in another thread his inability to pass and morph into a black hole on offense really kills spacing and ball movement. Being able to dump the ball down low and kick it back out is something the Cavs simply cannot do right now.

So basically the entire offense (that Ive noticed) is all of the guards running around the perimeter doing dribble handoffs. The ball movemnet doesnt look crisp or decisive. Maybe that will come with experience.

We just can't let Tristan's man hangout in the paint without making him pay for it. Technically TT grabbing the offensive board does that, but it frustrates the offensive execution. Having Tristan screen someone on the perimeter forces the issue ... either his man comes out to help, someone else helps, or we get an open shot.

Still means nothing if we get the good look and can't bury it. Kevin is our most reliable 3pt shooter and we're trying to trade him...

Yeah I get it but its just something I think of you know. How much differnet would the Cavs offense look if we had a Al Horford type of skillset playing Center. A guy that can run around, has some fluidity to his game and can pass out of the post and open up the paint for all of the guards.

[JonFromVA]

True but Ive always wondered how much Tristan being more of a traditional Center has hurt the offense--as good as he is finishing PR and rebounding. Like I said in another thread his inability to pass and morph into a black hole on offense really kills spacing and ball movement. Being able to dump the ball down low and kick it back out is something the Cavs simply cannot do right now.

So basically the entire offense (that Ive noticed) is all of the guards running around the perimeter doing dribble handoffs. The ball movemnet doesnt look crisp or decisive. Maybe that will come with experience.

We just can't let Tristan's man hangout in the paint without making him pay for it. Technically TT grabbing the offensive board does that, but it frustrates the offensive execution. Having Tristan screen someone on the perimeter forces the issue ... either his man comes out to help, someone else helps, or we get an open shot.

Still means nothing if we get the good look and can't bury it. Kevin is our most reliable 3pt shooter and we're trying to trade him...

Yeah I get it but its just something I think of you know. How much differnet would the Cavs offense look if we had a Al Horford type of skillset playing Center. A guy that can run around, has some fluidity to his game and can pass out of the post and open up the paint for all of the guards.

If I didn't care about pissing off vets, I'd play Kevin at C and call up Dean Wade to play PF.

I expect/hope we'll start reforming this roster in to something that makes more sense for JB, but some things just need to play out while the young guns get experience.

[Stillwater]

Love has been frustrated he's not getting the same touches he's always enjoyed in the past but not now under beilein and although most of that has to do with young back court players who are better at creating for themselves than others , Beileins not doing anything to utilize Love as a focal point at all because it's not their vision long term
Love is going to ask for a trade soon I can feel it, no matter how positive he's trying to be.
They need to really consider trading Love before he publicly demands it.

[JonFromVA]

Love has been frustrated he's not getting the same touches he's always enjoyed in the past but not now under beilein and although most of that has to do with young back court players who are better at creating for themselves than others , Beileins not doing anything to utilize Love as a focal point at all because it's not their vision long term
Love is going to ask for a trade soon I can feel it, no matter how positive he's trying to be.
They need to really consider trading Love before he publicly demands it.

If you believe the rumor-mill, he asked for a trade (behind the scenes) a while back. We'll see soon enough as there was a report that at least there was a potential framework of deal in the works.

Surely there's a compromise to be had between the Cavs giving up an asset to move him .vs. us getting everything we want (cap relief, a young player, and an unprotected pick).

[Stillwater]

Love has been frustrated he's not getting the same touches he's always enjoyed in the past but not now under beilein and although most of that has to do with young back court players who are better at creating for themselves than others , Beileins not doing anything to utilize Love as a focal point at all because it's not their vision long term
Love is going to ask for a trade soon I can feel it, no matter how positive he's trying to be.
They need to really consider trading Love before he publicly demands it.

If you believe the rumor-mill, he asked for a trade (behind the scenes) a while back. We'll see soon enough as there was a report that at least there was a potential framework of deal in the works.

Surely there's a compromise to be had between the Cavs giving up an asset to move him .vs. us getting everything we want (cap relief, a young player, and an unprotected pick).

I would bet that Altman does not want mid-late firsts from this draft esp not if taking back a deadweight deal longer than this season tbh [ this draft is projecting to be very similar after the lottery in lack of boom bust high upside prospects often found way into the mid 2nd and is only slightly better than 2013 on paper for those types of players where getting a late first could mean taking a prospect that is a 3 or 4 year proven role player with a decent floor as a role player and ceiling not much better] and so I would also not be surprised if he eventually settled for a future very late first projected pick after 1 and done rule is gone if said trade team gave up a real live person he wants on a rookie scale contract as the main return.
I dont beleive KLove would ask for a trade behind closed doors and then go and make a spectical about it later if nothing happenned. I do think however he is getting frustrated and the odds he asks for one are high if they dont do something in the next couple weeks.

[JonFromVA]

Love has been frustrated he's not getting the same touches he's always enjoyed in the past but not now under beilein and although most of that has to do with young back court players who are better at creating for themselves than others , Beileins not doing anything to utilize Love as a focal point at all because it's not their vision long term
Love is going to ask for a trade soon I can feel it, no matter how positive he's trying to be.
They need to really consider trading Love before he publicly demands it.

If you believe the rumor-mill, he asked for a trade (behind the scenes) a while back. We'll see soon enough as there was a report that at least there was a potential framework of deal in the works.

Surely there's a compromise to be had between the Cavs giving up an asset to move him .vs. us getting everything we want (cap relief, a young player, and an unprotected pick).

I would bet that Altman does not want mid-late firsts from this draft esp not if taking back a deadweight deal longer than this season tbh [ this draft is projecting to be very similar after the lottery in lack of boom bust high upside prospects often found way into the mid 2nd and is only slightly better than 2013 on paper for those types of players where getting a late first could mean taking a prospect that is a 3 or 4 year proven role player with a decent floor as a role player and ceiling not much better] and so I would also not be surprised if he eventually settled for a future very late first projected pick after 1 and done rule is gone if said trade team gave up a real live person he wants on a rookie scale contract as the main return.
I dont beleive KLove would ask for a trade behind closed doors and then go and make a spectical about it later if nothing happenned. I do think however he is getting frustrated and the odds he asks for one are high if they dont do something in the next couple weeks.

*shrugs*

Dan is a gambler and would be much more interested if there's a chance the pick we got was unprotected and could turn in to a lottery pick, Koby might be counting on finding a diamond in the rough (perhaps one off the radar like Cedi), and Beilein would probably be happy to get another well coached 3 or 4 year player.

So, I could see them talking themselves in to pretty much anything.

Plus ... well ... it's early in the process and the various draft sites still have a lot of tape to watch before they'll have a complete picture of the draft class.

[LivingLegend]

If you believe the rumor-mill, he asked for a trade (behind the scenes) a while back. We'll see soon enough as there was a report that at least there was a potential framework of deal in the works.

Surely there's a compromise to be had between the Cavs giving up an asset to move him .vs. us getting everything we want (cap relief, a young player, and an unprotected pick).

I would bet that Altman does not want mid-late firsts from this draft esp not if taking back a deadweight deal longer than this season tbh [ this draft is projecting to be very similar after the lottery in lack of boom bust high upside prospects often found way into the mid 2nd and is only slightly better than 2013 on paper for those types of players where getting a late first could mean taking a prospect that is a 3 or 4 year proven role player with a decent floor as a role player and ceiling not much better] and so I would also not be surprised if he eventually settled for a future very late first projected pick after 1 and done rule is gone if said trade team gave up a real live person he wants on a rookie scale contract as the main return.
I dont beleive KLove would ask for a trade behind closed doors and then go and make a spectical about it later if nothing happenned. I do think however he is getting frustrated and the odds he asks for one are high if they dont do something in the next couple weeks.

*shrugs*

Dan is a gambler and would be much more interested if there's a chance the pick we got was unprotected and could turn in to a lottery pick, Koby might be counting on finding a diamond in the rough (perhaps one off the radar like Cedi), and Beilein would probably be happy to get another well coached 3 or 4 year player.

So, I could see them talking themselves in to pretty much anything.

Plus ... well ... it's early in the process and the various draft sites still have a lot of tape to watch before they'll have a complete picture of the draft class.

As long as any player drafted starts at a bare minimum 6'7" 220lb Im fine with whatever lol