Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

[Dresden]

I also don't understand the line: "I think people make the mistake of believing that all players with upside have superstar upside. " If people thought Kawhi or Paul George or Pascal Siakam had superstar upside, they wouldn't have lasted to midway through the first round, would they? You just don't know sometimes, but you can at least look for certain measurables. And when a prospect fits the prototype of the modern nba wing- long, athletic, can handle the ball, can score at all three levels- AND was highly productive in high school as well--- you have to think someone like is as likely as anyone to be a very high level player.

Measurements don't create stars though. The Bulls know that better than anyone with Tyrus Thomas and Tyson Chandler.

It's about intangibles, decision-making, basketball IQ, and instincts. That's why you can't get too caught up in tools; otherwise, Cam Reddish and Kevin Knox would be absolute studs. Some people see an athletic 6'8 forward with a great high school reel and automatically assume superstar upside. Athleticism and measurements are simply the natural advantages you have if you figure the finer parts out.

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True, but those intangibles you mention are pretty hard to see in advance. that's why Kawhi and George lasted as long as they did in the draft. Same with Jimmy Butler. But with Porter, injury aside, there was no compelling reason to believe he lacked in any of the intangibles you mentioned. His dad was a coach, there was nothing about his film that showed a lack of instincts or BBIQ. You can't know everything about a player before you draft him, but Porter checked all the boxes, aside from his injury history.

And while you can't take "tools" as an absolute guarantee, there are big reasons why players who do have the necessary tools get drafted ahead of those who don't. It's a necessary pre-requisite to being a great player, other than rare exceptions like Luka Doncic or Steph Curry. that's why the Bulls took Tony Snell- he had the physical characteristics as a guy like Kawhi did. Turns out, he didn't have the intangibles. Jimmy Butler also had the "tools"- very athletic, strong, etc. And he did have the intangibles, that no one saw until he was in the league 2-3 years.

[johnnyvann840]

I think people make the mistake of believing that all players with upside have superstar upside.

We're six months removed from people trying to convince us that Cam Reddish has superstar potential. Michael Porter had multiple significant back surgeries before his 21st birthday. It's good to see him contributing, but he was red flagged by numerous teams in the lottery that year. Chicago picking him would've been irresponsible.

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Yes. And let's not too excited about a couple of good games. Since drafted, the Nuggets have played around 118 games. MPJ has had maybe a handful of decent games and has never played over 23 minutes in any game. Bottom line is that he missed his entire rookie season and has played very little this season. Nobody knows what an 82 game schedule might be like for him. He is still an extremely high risk and even if he has a great season in the next couple of years, how long is he going to be able to stay healthy. His health issues are significant and the type of issues that are common to re-occur and plague him for years. There have not been many examples of people who have gone through multiple surgeries and microdiscectomy that ever make it back to 100% and stay there.

http://discectomypain.com/5-pro-athletes-that-have-had-a-micro-discectomy/

From that list only a couple of these athletes made full recoveries. All the others either were never the same or retired or were shells of themselves.

Tiger Woods: It took Tiger nearly 5 years to back to being competitive and he still cannot play a full schedule.

Peyton Manning: He is one of the best examples but was older and only had a couple of good seasons after.

Larry Bird: Basically ended his career. Was never the same player.

Tony Romo: Basically ended his career. Was never the same player.

Andy Murray: Completely different surgery. Very minor.

Jose Canseco: Was never the same. Beginning of the end of his career

Mario Lemieux: Had brief moments but was plagued by injuries for the rest of his career. Was much older when he had his.



Bonus Round

Deion Sanders: He was 48 when he had his surgery.

Rob Gronkowski : Went on to have three more back surgeries. But he is one good example of a player who had great seasons after surgery. Still played limited snaps after microD


David Wright: Retired shortly after his surgery.


Henrik Zetterberg : Was never the same. Retired a few years after his microD.. cited degenerative disc condition as reason.


Dwight Howard: Career spiraled downward after his microD.

[PaKii94]

Please remind me again what his numbers were in high school, where he "wasn't very impressive". And I guess that sort of unimpressive play was why he was ranked the #1 prospect in his class?

Did I say his numbers weren't impressive? His GAMEPLAY wasn't impressive. I didn't think (and still don't think) his game (mid range jumpers over smaller players) will translate well to the NBA. One hot game doesn't change that. That's why I want to see him excel for a few months before we come to any conclusions about him.

Maybe he does change up his game for the modern NBA but the onus is on him to show us. Anyway, did you know our very own Antonio Blakeney was a #1 prospect out of high school? That really showed he was a star in the NBA right?

I don't see how anyone can watch his high school highlights and not be impressed. He did a lot more than shoot mid range jumpers. He had a good handle for a 6'10" forward, showed a lot of athleticism, could get to the rim easily, could knock down 3's, was an excellent rebounder. I thought he was the second or third best option in that draft, after Marvin Bagley (I had him tied with Doncic).

His game seems tailor made for the modern nba- he's the prototypical athletic stretch 4. He's not quite the athlete Paul George is, but he's very skilled for his size.

And while being ranked #1 in your class doesn't guarantee a solid nba career, it does mean you were a damn impressive player in high school.

He didn't really show any of what you said... Especially not against good talent (not even college level)

https://youtu.be/P2vYvuxIf-Q

Sure he can shoot but he's a stiff contested jump shooting chucker with limited athleticism and limited intangibles. The mental aspect is the hardest to change. We have that type of player in Lavine. He's putting up his points but the impact is still not at star level

[Ice Man]

There have a been a few posts over the past 1 1/2 years about how the Bulls shouldn't have let David Nwaba go. Well, he's available, as the Nets just waived him.

[Ugly Duckling]

MPJ looking like the real deal Holyfield. Still a huge injury risk, but in hindsight I wish we took a flyer. WCJ, although good, has been disappointing defensively

[Ugly Duckling]

MPJ killing it. Was big on the Bulls drafting him. Oh well.

This is where GMs become HOFers, legends or a nondescript GM. It is just pure luck most of the time but when you are in the dumps like the Bulls have been, you need to take a shot at many high ceiling prospects as you can.

As much as I like the Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson types,, the NBA seems to be ruled by offensive superstars. And, I just don't get it when the draft process is your primary path to acquire talent, the Bulls have not taken any risks at all for the last few years. It is not like they will sign Durant in free agency or pull of a trade for Harden/AD.

But, OTOH, picking an injury prone player is risky too. We need to see a larger sample size before assuming anything related to his health. Denver seems to be the perfect fit because they have a good team, better stars, small market. He can ease his way into the league.

The talent was always there. No question. But the combine medical report was clearly concerning as he ended up requiring the second surgery. A failed back surgery is a huge red flag and foreshadows problems down the road. Was too risky at 7, especially with a solid, healthy player like WCJ on the board. There was much less risk at 14. Denver got lucky and they're still not (nor will ever be) out of the woods. Pre-ACL Rose should've developed into the best PG of all time. Would've rather taken Westbrook or even Love over post-ACL Rose

[Mech Engineer]

MPJ killing it. Was big on the Bulls drafting him. Oh well.

This is where GMs become HOFers, legends or a nondescript GM. It is just pure luck most of the time but when you are in the dumps like the Bulls have been, you need to take a shot at many high ceiling prospects as you can.

As much as I like the Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson types,, the NBA seems to be ruled by offensive superstars. And, I just don't get it when the draft process is your primary path to acquire talent, the Bulls have not taken any risks at all for the last few years. It is not like they will sign Durant in free agency or pull of a trade for Harden/AD.

But, OTOH, picking an injury prone player is risky too. We need to see a larger sample size before assuming anything related to his health. Denver seems to be the perfect fit because they have a good team, better stars, small market. He can ease his way into the league.

The talent was always there. No question. But the combine medical report was clearly concerning as he ended up requiring the second surgery. A failed back surgery is a huge red flag and foreshadows problems down the road. Was too risky at 7, especially with a solid, healthy player like WCJ on the board. There was much less risk at 14. Denver got lucky and they're still not (nor will ever be) out of the woods. Pre-ACL Rose should've developed into the best PG of all time. Would've rather taken Westbrook or even Love over post-ACL Rose

That's not the point. Westbrook or Love were great players on their own but aren't the building blocks like a Luka, Durant, Giannis, Kawhi. They are just not that in today's scheme how much ever talented/athletic/winning players they are. There is enough evidence that building around smaller guards or bigs except for an odd case like Steph Curry is not going to work most of the time. In the big picture, DRose or Westbrook wouldn't have made a difference on the Bulls by the way they operate.

They need that essential piece like Giannis from the draft to be in place. It's only after that most of these GMs especially Paxson can even function as a GM. Otherwise, they will be flailing in the GM world. To build around a Westbrook not only requires a lot of luck but also a whole lot of creativity and that luck/creativity is needed less with a Giannis, Luka around.

[Mech Engineer]

Tyrus Thomas was THE pick with upside for the Bulls. That was the biggest bet they made on upside. Jimmy Butler was the opposite. He was the safest pick he could have made.

I mean, I understand the argument, but it sure is easier to make in hindsight than it is at the time. The one thing I will say in hindsight is that Tryus should have flunked the psych test. When you're drafting sheer raw athleticism, you'd better get a smart guy who's going to improve. The mental difference between Giannis (another athlete/project) and Tryus is huge and obvious.

I agree completely. It is what defines a GM. There are a lot of 6-5 to 6-9 wings in a draft ...some super talented. But, it is a GM's job to figure out all the psychological, project the player's mental strengths forward. They obviously failed with Tyrus but that was almost a dozen years ago. They cannot be scared because of that mistake and also hopefully have learnt some good lessons from that mistake.

There are enough tools to project who is going to learn the game. How many such guys are there in a draft every year? A couple of them at the most. I give them kudos for the Butler, Snell picks. One worked out and the other failed.

In all honesty, I would be drafting wings every year and damn the bigs/guards in the draft. Pick them up in free agency/trades and try to hit home run with a wing every year.

[Ice Man]

In all honesty, I would be drafting wings every year and damn the bigs/guards in the draft. Pick them up in free agency/trades and try to hit home run with a wing every year.

Yeah pretty much. Calling a Luka a wing for that comment, because if you're a 6' 8" guy you are for practical purposes a wing, even if you are the prime ballhandler.

[HomoSapien]

There have a been a few posts over the past 1 1/2 years about how the Bulls shouldn't have let David Nwaba go. Well, he's available, as the Nets just waived him.

He was waived because he tore his Achilles.

[HomoSapien]

I felt like this needed a repost, since we're revisiting that draft:

After attempts to trade up for Marvin Bagley III and Jaren Jackson Jr. that sources said never got close, the Bulls stayed at No. 7 and drafted 6-foot-10-inch Wendell Carter Jr. from Duke.

The Bulls held trade talks with the Hawks, who owned the third pick, and the Grizzlies, who owned the fourth. In both cases, they didn’t want to sacrifice the future first-round picks it would’ve cost to move up a few spots for Jackson or Trae Young.

The Hawks ultimately traded down with the Mavericks, with the Hawks getting Young’s draft rights at No. 5 and a future first-round pick from the Mavericks. Dallas landed Luka Doncic’s draft rights at No. 3.

With the Grizzlies, who drafted Jackson, the Bulls weren’t interested in swallowing the two years and $49 million remaining on Chandler Parsons’ contract. The Bulls liked Mo Bamba, who went to the Magic at No. 6, but didn’t engage in attempts to move up for him.

One long-shot scenario disappeared by midafternoon when the Kings leaked they were locked into drafting Bagley with the second pick. The Bulls privately had hoped the Kings would become enamored with Michael Porter Jr., dropping Bagley to a slot from which the Bulls could possibly trade up and acquire Bagley.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-wendell-carter-draft-20180621-story.html

Essentially we chose Carter/Coby White over Trae Young (or Doncic, though it seems like we never had interest in him). I think this draft will continue to be a missed opportunity that will end up just ruining this current rebuild.

Young, LaVine, and Lauri would have been a legitimate big three to try to build around.

[MrSparkle]

I would've taken MPJ if he was healthy, cause I'll take the 6'10 wing with handles and a shot any day over a big man, but frankly this team needed a healthy prospect to build around (though ironically WCJ missed half his rookie season), especially when you still consider Zach has an ACL tear on his resume.

Denver is 10 deep with an All-NBA point-center and several complimentary near-stars. MPJ was a low risk mid-lotto pick for Denver.

At #7, there were too many options for the Bulls to take the risk.

I think that's the end of the MPJ discussion in a nutshell.

[MrSparkle]

I felt like this needed a repost, since we're revisiting that draft:

After attempts to trade up for Marvin Bagley III and Jaren Jackson Jr. that sources said never got close, the Bulls stayed at No. 7 and drafted 6-foot-10-inch Wendell Carter Jr. from Duke.

The Bulls held trade talks with the Hawks, who owned the third pick, and the Grizzlies, who owned the fourth. In both cases, they didn’t want to sacrifice the future first-round picks it would’ve cost to move up a few spots for Jackson or Trae Young.

The Hawks ultimately traded down with the Mavericks, with the Hawks getting Young’s draft rights at No. 5 and a future first-round pick from the Mavericks. Dallas landed Luka Doncic’s draft rights at No. 3.

With the Grizzlies, who drafted Jackson, the Bulls weren’t interested in swallowing the two years and $49 million remaining on Chandler Parsons’ contract. The Bulls liked Mo Bamba, who went to the Magic at No. 6, but didn’t engage in attempts to move up for him.

One long-shot scenario disappeared by midafternoon when the Kings leaked they were locked into drafting Bagley with the second pick. The Bulls privately had hoped the Kings would become enamored with Michael Porter Jr., dropping Bagley to a slot from which the Bulls could possibly trade up and acquire Bagley.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-wendell-carter-draft-20180621-story.html

Essentially we chose Carter/Coby White over Trae Young (or Doncic, though it seems like we never had interest in him). I think this draft will continue to be a missed opportunity that will end up just ruining this current rebuild.

Young, LaVine, and Lauri would have been a legitimate big three to try to build around.

Now this is something worth discussing. Bulls were still looking for all the wrong guys.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Read on Twitter

[Mech Engineer]

I felt like this needed a repost, since we're revisiting that draft:

After attempts to trade up for Marvin Bagley III and Jaren Jackson Jr. that sources said never got close, the Bulls stayed at No. 7 and drafted 6-foot-10-inch Wendell Carter Jr. from Duke.

The Bulls held trade talks with the Hawks, who owned the third pick, and the Grizzlies, who owned the fourth. In both cases, they didn’t want to sacrifice the future first-round picks it would’ve cost to move up a few spots for Jackson or Trae Young.

The Hawks ultimately traded down with the Mavericks, with the Hawks getting Young’s draft rights at No. 5 and a future first-round pick from the Mavericks. Dallas landed Luka Doncic’s draft rights at No. 3.

With the Grizzlies, who drafted Jackson, the Bulls weren’t interested in swallowing the two years and $49 million remaining on Chandler Parsons’ contract. The Bulls liked Mo Bamba, who went to the Magic at No. 6, but didn’t engage in attempts to move up for him.

One long-shot scenario disappeared by midafternoon when the Kings leaked they were locked into drafting Bagley with the second pick. The Bulls privately had hoped the Kings would become enamored with Michael Porter Jr., dropping Bagley to a slot from which the Bulls could possibly trade up and acquire Bagley.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-wendell-carter-draft-20180621-story.html

Essentially we chose Carter/Coby White over Trae Young (or Doncic, though it seems like we never had interest in him). I think this draft will continue to be a missed opportunity that will end up just ruining this current rebuild.

Young, LaVine, and Lauri would have been a legitimate big three to try to build around.

Now this is something worth discussing. Bulls were still looking for all the wrong guys.

Not that Lavine is an MJ but MJ would have never given up the ball handling duties, decision making to John Paxson if the Bulls never had Pippen. In a similar sense, the Bulls cannot hope for a player like Lavine to give up his ball hogging or too many shots or whatever you want to call it without a legit guard type in the fold. Guys like Sato, Dunn can't make anyone feel that, "hey, I can trust this guy" and I can just support him as he will carry the offense or make good decisions. That was the problem with Derrick when he had guys like Deng, Boozer etc..

But, ideally the Bulls needed a Luka type to make decisions so that Lavine could play to his strengths and his mistakes could be minimized. Now, they are asking him to be in a bigger role than what he is capable off.

[Dan Z]

Andre Drummond on the move? Detroit is in talks with the Hawks.

Read on Twitter

[HomoSapien]

Andre Drummond on the move? Detroit is in talks with the Hawks.

Read on Twitter

Just posted in the trade thread, but I really like him. He's a tremendous upgrade over Wendell and we could probably get Rose thrown into the deal as well if they're going to go full-rebuild. I'd offer Carter and Porter, which is a better overall deal than what Atlanta is currently offering.

[Dan Z]

Andre Drummond on the move? Detroit is in talks with the Hawks.

Read on Twitter

Just posted in the trade thread, but I really like him. He's a tremendous upgrade over Wendell and we could probably get Rose thrown into the deal as well if they're going to go full-rebuild. I'd offer Carter and Porter, which is a better overall deal than what Atlanta is currently offering.

Where would that leave the Bulls at SF going forward? Would Hutchison be the future there?

[ZOMG]

Andre Drummond on the move? Detroit is in talks with the Hawks.

Read on Twitter

We have to get a 5 who can shoot, not one of these dudes who live in the low post and clog the lane.

[HomoSapien]

Where would that leave the Bulls at SF going forward? Would Hutchison be the future there?

It's just something we'd have to address in a Thad Young trade (i.e. Harkless) or next season with our MLE or draft pick.

It's possible that we could keep Porter and trade Young and Felicio instead, but we wouldn't be able to get Rose in that trade unless someone like Dunn also went out.