Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

[PaKii94]

Andre Drummond on the move? Detroit is in talks with the Hawks.

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Just posted in the trade thread, but I really like him. He's a tremendous upgrade over Wendell and we could probably get Rose thrown into the deal as well if they're going to go full-rebuild. I'd offer Carter and Porter, which is a better overall deal than what Atlanta is currently offering.

Drummond would feast in our system. Like an elite gafford

[Red Larrivee]

Maxing out Drummond does little to nothing for this team.

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[Mech Engineer]

The last thing the Bulls need is another non-shooting highly paid big. He might fit well in Dallas who need a big to protect the rim and help out Luka. But, even there, Drummond is a relic of the past but can play with Porzingis and create mismatches for opponents.

[dougthonus]

Just posted in the trade thread, but I really like him. He's a tremendous upgrade over Wendell and we could probably get Rose thrown into the deal as well if they're going to go full-rebuild. I'd offer Carter and Porter, which is a better overall deal than what Atlanta is currently offering.

You'd give up Carter just so you could have the option of bidding on Drummond in the summer? That seems insane. Especially since Carter at least theoretically has the tools to become a modern big man while Drummond does not. I can't see how Drummond is a "tremendous" upgrade over the next four seasons. This would be a win now move for a team that isn't remotely in position to win now.

[Andi Obst]

A WCJ for Drummond trade would definitely make me quit. Drummond can't really be a significant upgrade over anyone, he's a low impact player and always has been IMO. Whoever pays him in the summer is going to regret that.

[HomoSapien]

You'd give up Carter just so you could have the option of bidding on Drummond in the summer? That seems insane.

The Bulls have no history of losing their own free-agents that they've attempted to resign, outside of Horace Grant. They'd also be able to pay Drummond more than anyone, and we'd probably be the biggest market that could afford him outside of maybe the Knicks? I'm perfectly optimistic with Chicago's ability to retain him.

Especially since Carter at least theoretically has the tools to become a modern big man while Drummond does not.

Drummond leads the league in rebounds and blocks shots at a much greater clip. Carter being able to one day possibly hit 30% of his three's doesn't make him much more appealing to me. I get that he's more mobile on switches (though Drummond isn't terrible for a guy his size), but he also struggles against guys who are bigger than him and there's unfortunately no remedy for that.

I can't see how Drummond is a "tremendous" upgrade over the next four seasons. This would be a win now move for a team that isn't remotely in position to win now.

Drummond is 26. He's not some old man, approaching his golden years. Drummond was a better player than Carter at 20 as well, so I don't really see an argument for why Carter will suddenly become the better player.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Is it an assumption at this point the Pelicans will match an Ingram max? If OPJ opts out do the Bulls have a max slot?

Ingram has clearly taken a leap this year, the numbers are great. Defense isn’t there yet but he’s still only 22. Would shore up the wing issue nicely.

[dice]

29/13/11/3s/4b for ben simmons against the rockets. not too shabby. harden w/ a ho-hum 44/11/11

[TheStig]

You'd give up Carter just so you could have the option of bidding on Drummond in the summer? That seems insane.

The Bulls have no history of losing their own free-agents that they've attempted to resign, outside of Horace Grant. They'd also be able to pay Drummond more than anyone, and we'd probably be the biggest market that could afford him outside of maybe the Knicks? I'm perfectly optimistic with Chicago's ability to retain him.

Especially since Carter at least theoretically has the tools to become a modern big man while Drummond does not.

Drummond leads the league in rebounds and blocks shots at a much greater clip. Carter being able to one day possibly hit 30% of his three's doesn't make him much more appealing to me. I get that he's more mobile on switches (though Drummond isn't terrible for a guy his size), but he also struggles against guys who are bigger than him and there's unfortunately no remedy for that.

I can't see how Drummond is a "tremendous" upgrade over the next four seasons. This would be a win now move for a team that isn't remotely in position to win now.

Drummond is 26. He's not some old man, approaching his golden years. Drummond was a better player than Carter at 20 as well, so I don't really see an argument for why Carter will suddenly become the better player.

Where exactly does Drummond take this team? I can see us winning 2-3 more games a year with Drummond for the next couple of years but he'll be on a max deal and pretty much put a ceiling on this team. Not to mention Lauri is better and needs to become the second option, so Drummond will just clog the offense or you'll be having Lauri stand at the 3pt line while Lavine and Drummond do PNR.

If we didn't have Carter and were just missing a center, I'd do it but this is just not a good move for this team. They need an elite wing or PG to bump everyone down a slot on offense, not a guy like Drummond.

[Leslie Forman]

When Jimmy Butler was traded, I know the first thing I thought was "finally, that $30million a year can be spent on Andre Drummond instead."

[Chi town]

Morant is so dang good.

We’d be such a different team if he was our PG.

[Michael Jackson]

Is it an assumption at this point the Pelicans will match an Ingram max? If OPJ opts out do the Bulls have a max slot?

Ingram has clearly taken a leap this year, the numbers are great. Defense isn’t there yet but he’s still only 22. Would shore up the wing issue nicely.

Yeah they will match. They aren’t letting him walk.

[Ugly Duckling]

This is where GMs become HOFers, legends or a nondescript GM. It is just pure luck most of the time but when you are in the dumps like the Bulls have been, you need to take a shot at many high ceiling prospects as you can.

As much as I like the Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson types,, the NBA seems to be ruled by offensive superstars. And, I just don't get it when the draft process is your primary path to acquire talent, the Bulls have not taken any risks at all for the last few years. It is not like they will sign Durant in free agency or pull of a trade for Harden/AD.

But, OTOH, picking an injury prone player is risky too. We need to see a larger sample size before assuming anything related to his health. Denver seems to be the perfect fit because they have a good team, better stars, small market. He can ease his way into the league.

The talent was always there. No question. But the combine medical report was clearly concerning as he ended up requiring the second surgery. A failed back surgery is a huge red flag and foreshadows problems down the road. Was too risky at 7, especially with a solid, healthy player like WCJ on the board. There was much less risk at 14. Denver got lucky and they're still not (nor will ever be) out of the woods. Pre-ACL Rose should've developed into the best PG of all time. Would've rather taken Westbrook or even Love over post-ACL Rose

That's not the point. Westbrook or Love were great players on their own but aren't the building blocks like a Luka, Durant, Giannis, Kawhi. They are just not that in today's scheme how much ever talented/athletic/winning players they are. There is enough evidence that building around smaller guards or bigs except for an odd case like Steph Curry is not going to work most of the time. In the big picture, DRose or Westbrook wouldn't have made a difference on the Bulls by the way they operate.

They need that essential piece like Giannis from the draft to be in place. It's only after that most of these GMs especially Paxson can even function as a GM. Otherwise, they will be flailing in the GM world. To build around a Westbrook not only requires a lot of luck but also a whole lot of creativity and that luck/creativity is needed less with a Giannis, Luka around.

Obviously Westbrook and Love aren't MVP-caliber. My point was if we had Westbrook instead of oft-injured Rose, we could've attracted a top-tier player like PG-13 and retained Jimmy, which would've put us in the mix (just like having WCJ would be better than an oft-injured MPJ). I agree the front office is a bit too risk averse, but knowing what we know now, I'm pretty sure they would've taken MPJ at 7. They made the right decision at the time based on the available info

[dougthonus]

The Bulls have no history of losing their own free-agents that they've attempted to resign, outside of Horace Grant. They'd also be able to pay Drummond more than anyone, and we'd probably be the biggest market that could afford him outside of maybe the Knicks? I'm perfectly optimistic with Chicago's ability to retain him.

yeah, I'm sure we can keep Drummond if we outbid everyone. Why would you possibly want to do that? You want to lock up Drummond for 30M+ per year for five years? Where is he leading Detroit?

Drummond is 26. He's not some old man, approaching his golden years. Drummond was a better player than Carter at 20 as well, so I don't really see an argument for why Carter will suddenly become the better player.

But he's a finished product and clearly isn't a #1 option on a good team and probably not a #2 option on a good team and is likely going to take #1 option type money to keep around. I mean I do think if you swapped Drummond and Carter the team would be better, but not enough to make up for the massive salary gap that is going to exist and the flexibility you will lose.

If you were certain you could lock up Drummond for 20M a year or something then I'd probably be in. The threat that you might have to pay him something like 190M over 5 years to keep him is where I think this trade goes south, there's way too much uncertainty in it.

[DuckIII]

Is it an assumption at this point the Pelicans will match an Ingram max? If OPJ opts out do the Bulls have a max slot?

Ingram has clearly taken a leap this year, the numbers are great. Defense isn’t there yet but he’s still only 22. Would shore up the wing issue nicely.

I absolutely agree with you. But I read an article recently in which Griffin declared Ingram “untouchable.” And he pairs nicely, on paper, with Zion.

[DuckIII]

Drummond makes an enormous amount of sense for Atlanta. For us it never even occurred to me. And now that it’s been brought up, it makes no sense. We need a perimeter player to pair with Zach who can handle, score and distribute. We have most of the other pieces we need. If we are shelling out another max, it needs to be in that mold.

[MrSparkle]

Morant is so dang good.

We’d be such a different team if he was our PG.

Well, with JV, JJJ and Clarke, MEM has a talented and big frontcourt.

Here Ja would be playing SF half the time while Dunn, LaVine or Sato dribble.

[HomoSapien]

yeah, I'm sure we can keep Drummond if we outbid everyone. Why would you possibly want to do that? You want to lock up Drummond for 30M+ per year for five years? Where is he leading Detroit?

I'm all about getting talent and figuring out the rest later.

It seemed your issue before was that it might be hard to keep him. Now it's changing to he's not worth the money. Let me ask you this. What are the Bulls going to do with that money that'll be better? They've openly adopted the excuse that they're not a free-agent destination. They've never signed or traded for anyone that's more talented than Drummond (I suppose you could argue Zach's more talented, but we're not exactly trading Jimmy Butler here). Last offseason we invested $27m to bring in Thad Young, Sato, Kornet, and Archi.

But he's a finished product and clearly isn't a #1 option on a good team and probably not a #2 option on a good team and is likely going to take #1 option type money to keep around. I mean I do think if you swapped Drummond and Carter the team would be better, but not enough to make up for the massive salary gap that is going to exist and the flexibility you will lose.

If you were certain you could lock up Drummond for 20M a year or something then I'd probably be in. The threat that you might have to pay him something like 190M over 5 years to keep him is where I think this trade goes south, there's way too much uncertainty in it.

I totally agree that he's not a first option, but I'll tell you what I like about him:

Numerous people in this thread keep talking about how players like him are being phased out of the NBA. That sort of makes me laugh... the guy is easily leading the NBA in rebounds. He's 11th in blocks per game and 3rd (!!!) at steals per game. Slow plodding unskilled centers might be going extinct, but that has nothing to do with Drummond. He's skilled and clearly able to make an impact in this modern NBA that he apparently has no business being in.

Him leading Detroit nowhere is as meaningless as Davis being unable to lead the Pelicans anywhere. Detroit hasn't done him any favors with the teams they've built him. Who has been his best teammate? Greg Monroe? Tobias Harris and Reggie Jackson? One season of healthy Blake Griffin? With a fairly untalented roster, he's almost single-handedly kept them in the playoff hunt for the past 3-4 seasons. Having Zach and Lauri would give him the most talented "big 3" he's had his entire career.

Detroit hasn't had too many capable defenders on their team but between 2015-2019 their team defensive rating has been 12th, 8th, 10th, and 11th. Paxson has had more success building defensive-minded teams than offensive-minded ones, and Drummond can absolutely anchor that.

Another thing I love about Drummond --- he doesn't miss games. Since his rookie season, he hasn't ever played less than 78 games. One thing that has brought the Bulls down season after season is injuries. Drummond may cost a lot, but you get your money's worth with him.

Finally, I think he complements Lauri extremely. He makes up for his soft rebounding and lack of shot-blocking and even defensively clogs the middle in a way that no one on this roster currently can. Lauri's shooting provides Andre with space to operate in the post, and at nearly 3 assists a game he should be able to find the open man. Drummond's never been paired with a scoring guard like Zach before, and I think that's exactly the type of guy you'd want next to him.

Do I think Drummond and Zach alone make us contenders? Obviously not. But I think he pushes us into the playoffs and would likely make us one player away (whether that's Lauri taking a step forward or a Lauri-centered trade) from being contenders. Right now, I think we're still two players away from being meaningful again. Drummond at least inches us in the right direction.

[HomoSapien]

When Jimmy Butler was traded, I know the first thing I thought was "finally, that $30million a year can be spent on Andre Drummond instead."

Well, that would be a poor understanding of the context of the trade. You weren't swapping Jimmy Butler for Andre Drummond. You swapped Butler for LaVine, Lauri, and Dunn and now you'd be adding Drummond to that return. As someone who was fervently against the Butler trade, even I can admit that on paper that's a more talented base than what Paxson realistically would ever be able to build around Jimmy.

Additionally, you traded Jimmy Butler and opened up space to pay Zach LaVine $20m. But beyond that, the bulk of the $30m you're complaining about is currently being spent on Otto Porter's corpse, which before that was being spent on the right to bench Jabari Parker. We've also invested $24m Thad Young, Sato, and Kornet. I also don't need to remind you that we're wasting $8m on Felicio's meal plan. If Drummond seems worse to you than what we've been doing with our money, and what our own GM projects we'll continue to do with that money ("we're not a FA destination") then I don't know what to tell you, Leslie.

[HomoSapien]

Morant is so dang good.

We’d be such a different team if he was our PG.

Well, with JV, JJJ and Clarke, MEM has a talented and big frontcourt.

Here Ja would be playing SF half the time while Dunn, LaVine or Sato dribble.

A lot of us wanted Morant, but once we got the 7th pick I was advocating for Clarke. He's looked phenomenal and would have been a much better draft pick than Coby.