Moderators: cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid
Dupp wrote:AussieBuck wrote:You can't stop Jae Crowder, you can only hope to contain him. Darkhorse MVP candidate IMO.
Kawhi just got spanked by crowder.
durvasa wrote:freethedevil wrote:paulbball wrote:Mods, can we close the polls. This is a waste of time.
The media narrative has already anointed Giannis the MVP this year.
If any other player puts up 38/whatever/whatever on league leading TS, they would be the unanimous MVP.
.
MVP isn't a scoring title. It's an overall award, and Gianni's overall impact is vastly higher than harden's by literally any measure and he's doing that on a team playing 70 win basketball.
Ironically, it would be a media narrative to act like Harden's season is nearly as good because of ppg+ts
“Vastly higher than harden’s by literally any measure”.
WS/48: Giannis .308, Harden .312
PER: Giannis 33.6, Harden 32.5
BPM: Giannis 12.7 Harden 11.3
PIPM: Giannis 8.4 Harden 7.4
RPM: Giannis 7.1 Harden 7.3
RAPTOR: Giannis 9.5 Harden 12.4
And that’s by per-minute measures. The more you play, the more “impact” you have on your team. There’s really no way around that fact.
Giannis is obviously a superb player and deserving MVP candidate, possibly the most impactful player on a per possession basis, but the separation isn’t what you are making it out to be. The Bucks, to their credit, get more from their other players than the Rockets do — and that explains the difference in record more so than the per-possession separation between Giannis and Harden (assuming it is there).
Strepbacter wrote:ShotCreator wrote:Giannis isn’t anchoring anything.
Giannis could miss the season and they’d win 60 games.
This is just laughable.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
90sAllDecade wrote:Yeah, I don't know about the 60 wins or DPOY takes, but Milwakee definitely has a top flight bench and Harden is an elite post defender and steals as well as a good man defender now.
I do question how much his teammates and coaching contribute to Giannis' defensive ratings, as Lopez is leading the team in DBPM as an elite shotblocker and Bledsoe contributes defensively as well in Bud's defensive system. It could be argued both Harden and Giannis have systems that benefit them, since the Bucks were 19th defensively before Bud and Lopez.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2018.html
DutchManDanFan wrote:90sAllDecade wrote:Yeah, I don't know about the 60 wins or DPOY takes, but Milwakee definitely has a top flight bench and Harden is an elite post defender and steals as well as a good man defender now.
I do question how much his teammates and coaching contribute to Giannis' defensive ratings, as Lopez is leading the team in DBPM as an elite shotblocker and Bledsoe contributes defensively as well in Bud's defensive system. It could be argued both Harden and Giannis have systems that benefit them, since the Bucks were 19th defensively before Bud and Lopez.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2018.html
Nice link to the 2018 roster. 5 players are still with the Bucks, 2 of them not in the rotation right now...
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Eric Bledsoe
Khris Middleton
Sterling Brown
D.J. Wilson
Malcolm Brogdon
Greg Monroe
Jabari Parker
Tony Snell
Matthew Dellavedova
John Henson
Jason Terry
Thon Maker
Shabazz Muhammad, Brandon Jennings, Sean Kilpatrick, Marshall Plumlee, Mirza Teletović, Rashad Vaughn, Tyler Zeller, Joel Bolomboy, DeAndre Liggins, Xavier Munford, Gary Payton
90sAllDecade wrote:Thanks, I think this means we agree?
Giannis was there previously and before the roster and coaching changes the Bucks defense wasn't nearly at the level it is now before Bud and the change in teammates. Although a very good defender before, Gannis' defensive numbers were magnified as well after the changes in the coaching system & roster, along with the team defensive rating increase.
90sAllDecade wrote:Again, a top flight player regardless, but he also has a system that benefits him like other MVP candidates.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
greekbuck34 wrote:In the span of 2-3 days:
Giannis isn't anchoring anything on offense and defense. It's all fiction.
The bucks are certainly a 60 win team without Giannis even without another clear all star caliber player in their roster.
Harden is clearly very close to a DPOY caliber player on defense the last 2-3 seasons.
Pennebaker wrote:And Bird did it while being a defensive liability. But he also made All-Defensive teams, which was another controversial issue regarding Bird and votes.
Patches Perry wrote:I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.
Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.
Gooner wrote:Patches Perry wrote:I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.
Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.
He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.
righterwriter wrote:Gooner wrote:Patches Perry wrote:I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.
Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.
He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.
Harden is a phenomenal offensive player, but he does too many things that make people not want to support him. If he stopped flopping and started winning big games in crunch time, I bet you it would carry over to more regular season honors.
Ultimately Giannis is just a lot more likable as a player and a person, he plays like a true teammate, while also putting up phenomenal stats and leading his team to the #1 record. Not much of a contest, imo.
emunney wrote:
We need a man shaped like a chicken nugget with the shot selection of a 21st birthday party.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
if you combined jabari parker, royal ivey, a shrimp and a ball sack youd have javon carter
Gooner wrote:righterwriter wrote:Gooner wrote:
He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.
Harden is a phenomenal offensive player, but he does too many things that make people not want to support him. If he stopped flopping and started winning big games in crunch time, I bet you it would carry over to more regular season honors.
Ultimately Giannis is just a lot more likable as a player and a person, he plays like a true teammate, while also putting up phenomenal stats and leading his team to the #1 record. Not much of a contest, imo.
Giannis gets away with travels and cheap fouls even more than Harden, so it's shouldn't be a part of the criteria for this award. This league is what it is, players are gonna take advantage of it, Harden just does it best. No one can deny that his skills are elite.
righterwriter wrote:Gooner wrote:righterwriter wrote:
Harden is a phenomenal offensive player, but he does too many things that make people not want to support him. If he stopped flopping and started winning big games in crunch time, I bet you it would carry over to more regular season honors.
Ultimately Giannis is just a lot more likable as a player and a person, he plays like a true teammate, while also putting up phenomenal stats and leading his team to the #1 record. Not much of a contest, imo.
Giannis gets away with travels and cheap fouls even more than Harden, so it's shouldn't be a part of the criteria for this award. This league is what it is, players are gonna take advantage of it, Harden just does it best. No one can deny that his skills are elite.
I don't think anyone is denying his skills are elite. He averages 38ppg, so clearly he is an all-time tremendous scorer.
Harden just has a legacy of flopping and shrinking in the clutch which impacts how he is perceived. You innately have more respect for a guy like Giannis than for Harden due to who they are as people and in how they carry their team when it matters.
Sports is a metaphor for life, which is why we identify with it so much. Which player do you want on your side and whom do you want to follow into battle-- Giannis or Harden? As long as both are putting up amazing stats (and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.
