MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[AussieBuck]

(and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.

28-17 the rest of the way gets us to 60 wins. We are on track for 71 wins at the moment. 60 wins would be a massive form drop off.

[Gooner]

Gooner ,depressed arsenal fan

Milwaukee Bucks can only dream of being as iconic of a club as Arsenal.

[righterwriter]

Giannis gets away with travels and cheap fouls even more than Harden, so it's shouldn't be a part of the criteria for this award. This league is what it is, players are gonna take advantage of it, Harden just does it best. No one can deny that his skills are elite.

I don't think anyone is denying his skills are elite. He averages 38ppg, so clearly he is an all-time tremendous scorer.

Harden just has a legacy of flopping and shrinking in the clutch which impacts how he is perceived. You innately have more respect for a guy like Giannis than for Harden due to who they are as people and in how they carry their team when it matters.

Sports is a metaphor for life, which is why we identify with it so much. Which player do you want on your side and whom do you want to follow into battle-- Giannis or Harden? As long as both are putting up amazing stats (and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

I disagree. Harden, despite the respect he deserves for his scoring ability, is one of the least liked superstars in the league due to his pretty much cemented history as regular season stat stuffer and a shrinking violet in the playoffs.

On the other side, Giannis is perhaps the most liked player in the league amongst all types of fans, both casual and hardcore. He's on an upward ascent where I think people believe he has what it takes to be a multiple champion.

You may be seeing something that others don't in terms of Giannis being a flopper anywhere near the level that Harden flops. And you may see something which indicates that people shouldn't believe in Giannis as a leader and someone that can step up in the big moments, but I'd say you are in the minority for that.

In any case, we know that Harden doesn't rise to the challenge. We know he's an All-World level flopper. So it's going to be tough to prove to people that they are comparable in this, as the evidence just doesn't seem to show it.

[Gooner]

I don't think anyone is denying his skills are elite. He averages 38ppg, so clearly he is an all-time tremendous scorer.

Harden just has a legacy of flopping and shrinking in the clutch which impacts how he is perceived. You innately have more respect for a guy like Giannis than for Harden due to who they are as people and in how they carry their team when it matters.

Sports is a metaphor for life, which is why we identify with it so much. Which player do you want on your side and whom do you want to follow into battle-- Giannis or Harden? As long as both are putting up amazing stats (and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

I disagree. Harden, despite the respect he deserves for his scoring ability, is one of the least liked superstars in the league due to his pretty much cemented history as regular season stat stuffer and a shrinking violet in the playoffs.

On the other side, Giannis is perhaps the most liked player in the league amongst all types of fans, both casual and hardcore. He's on an upward ascent where I think people believe he has what it takes to be a multiple champion.

You may be seeing something that others don't in terms of Giannis being a flopper anywhere near the level that Harden flops. And you may see something which indicates that people shouldn't believe in Giannis as a leader and someone that can step up in the big moments, but I'd say you are in the minority for that.

In any case, we know that Harden doesn't rise to the challenge. We know he's an All-World level flopper. So it's going to be tough to prove to people that they are comparable in this, as the evidence just doesn't seem to show it.

Being liked is something that doesn't matter at all. It's subject to change anyway. One day they like you, other day they'll hate you. It's about respect, not about being "liked". The hate that Harden gets is a sign of respect. They are scared of him.

[righterwriter]

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

I disagree. Harden, despite the respect he deserves for his scoring ability, is one of the least liked superstars in the league due to his pretty much cemented history as regular season stat stuffer and a shrinking violet in the playoffs.

On the other side, Giannis is perhaps the most liked player in the league amongst all types of fans, both casual and hardcore. He's on an upward ascent where I think people believe he has what it takes to be a multiple champion.

You may be seeing something that others don't in terms of Giannis being a flopper anywhere near the level that Harden flops. And you may see something which indicates that people shouldn't believe in Giannis as a leader and someone that can step up in the big moments, but I'd say you are in the minority for that.

In any case, we know that Harden doesn't rise to the challenge. We know he's an All-World level flopper. So it's going to be tough to prove to people that they are comparable in this, as the evidence just doesn't seem to show it.

Being liked is something that doesn't matter at all. It's subject to change anyway. One day they like you, other day they'll hate you. It's about respect, not about being "liked". The hate that Harden gets is a sign of respect. They are scared of him.

Lots of players are loved throughout their careers. Having strong character, a respect for the game, and an elite competitive spirit makes players become exalted by fans, even after they've beaten your team.

Fans don't dislike Harden because they fear him, they dislike him because he plays the game in a way they don't enjoy watching.

[freethedevil]

Gooner ,depressed arsenal fan

Milwaukee Bucks can only dream of being as iconic of a club as Arsenal.

The most Iconic thing's arsenal's ever done is draw 12 games in a season. You're not even the most iconic side in London.

[Gooner]

Gooner ,depressed arsenal fan

Milwaukee Bucks can only dream of being as iconic of a club as Arsenal.

The most Iconic thing's arsenal's ever done is draw 12 games in a season. You're not even the most iconic side in London.

And lose zero. No one has ever done it, so yeah.

[Gooner]

I disagree. Harden, despite the respect he deserves for his scoring ability, is one of the least liked superstars in the league due to his pretty much cemented history as regular season stat stuffer and a shrinking violet in the playoffs.

On the other side, Giannis is perhaps the most liked player in the league amongst all types of fans, both casual and hardcore. He's on an upward ascent where I think people believe he has what it takes to be a multiple champion.

You may be seeing something that others don't in terms of Giannis being a flopper anywhere near the level that Harden flops. And you may see something which indicates that people shouldn't believe in Giannis as a leader and someone that can step up in the big moments, but I'd say you are in the minority for that.

In any case, we know that Harden doesn't rise to the challenge. We know he's an All-World level flopper. So it's going to be tough to prove to people that they are comparable in this, as the evidence just doesn't seem to show it.

Being liked is something that doesn't matter at all. It's subject to change anyway. One day they like you, other day they'll hate you. It's about respect, not about being "liked". The hate that Harden gets is a sign of respect. They are scared of him.

Lots of players are loved throughout their careers. Having strong character, a respect for the game, and an elite competitive spirit makes players become exalted by fans, even after they've beaten your team.

Fans don't dislike Harden because they fear him, they dislike him because he plays the game in a way they don't enjoy watching.

I'm sure Houston fans love Harden. A lot of fans in general aprreciate his game aswell. Loud minority can alter the perception, but the reality can be very different. Every great player has haters. Giannis doesn't have them yet because he hasn't accomplished enough.

[freethedevil]

Milwaukee Bucks can only dream of being as iconic of a club as Arsenal.

The most Iconic thing's arsenal's ever done is draw 12 games in a season. You're not even the most iconic side in London.

. No one has ever done it, so yeah.

Getting 90 points?

-> Man City got 100 and 98 the last two seasons
-> Liverpool got 97 and are on pace to get 110 this season

Win something against the best teams in the world before tryna wanna talk ****.

[Dupp]

Remember when that one team won 1-0. Man what a contest.

[Gooner]

The most Iconic thing's arsenal's ever done is draw 12 games in a season. You're not even the most iconic side in London.

. No one has ever done it, so yeah.

Getting 90 points?

-> Man City got 100 and 98 the last two seasons
-> Liverpool got 97 and are on pace to get 110 this season

Win something against the best teams in the world before tryna wanna talk ****.

They weren't undefeated though, it's not the same.

[MrPerfect1]

I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.

Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

Unless Giannis gets kidnapped or injured, Harden has a near 0% chance of winning the MVP this year.

-Giannis' team has 1/2 as many losses despite likely only having 1 All Star

-Giannis is the far superior defensive player and rebounder.

-Giannis is even similar to Harden in averaging roughly 1 point/minute.

[Gooner]

I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.

Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

Unless Giannis gets kidnapped or injured, Harden has a near 0% chance of winning the MVP this year.

-Giannis' team has 1/2 as many losses despite likely only having 1 All Star

-Giannis is the far superior defensive player and rebounder.

-Giannis is even similar to Harden in averaging roughly 1 point/minute.

Middleton is an all star. Giannis is a better rebounder because he plays the 4 and Brook Lopez is boxing out for him, while Harden has Capela who averages 14 rpg and Westbrook who averages 8.

[freethedevil]

. No one has ever done it, so yeah.

Getting 90 points?

-> Man City got 100 and 98 the last two seasons
-> Liverpool got 97 and are on pace to get 110 this season

Win something against the best teams in the world before tryna wanna talk ****.

They weren't undefeated though, it's not the same.

You're right, it's better.

[MrPerfect1]

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

Unless Giannis gets kidnapped or injured, Harden has a near 0% chance of winning the MVP this year.

-Giannis' team has 1/2 as many losses despite likely only having 1 All Star

-Giannis is the far superior defensive player and rebounder.

-Giannis is even similar to Harden in averaging roughly 1 point/minute.

Middleton is an all star. Giannis is a better rebounder because he plays the 4 and Brook Lopez is boxing out for him, while Harden has Capela who averages 14 rpg and Westbrook who averages 8.

I'm sure those are the main reasons and not the fact that Giannis is 7'0 tall, is more athletic than Harden, and plays Harder on the Defensive end.

[DutchManDanFan]

Middleton is an all star. Giannis is a better rebounder because he plays the 4 and Brook Lopez is boxing out for him, while Harden has Capela who averages 14 rpg and Westbrook who averages 8.

Being selected as an all star (once) should not be mentioned again. It's about a 2nd top 20-25 player. Normally these are all stars every year, unless there's an unbalance between West and East stars. Middleton is close, but most likely in the 30-35 range. With injuries he comes close to top 12 in the East with a possible all star selection.

You can argue it's more valuable to have 3 or 4 players in the 30-70 range (Khris, Bledsoe, BroLo, Hill) than one top 20 player (Westbrook) next to the MVP candidate. But if the best player on the best team has a chance to win MVP (as always) it matters when it's clearly the best player on clearly the best team.

[scrabbarista]

morning of January 6th

14.4 Harden
13.7 Antetok
12.9 James
10.5 Doncic
10.4 Butler

10.2 Gobert
9.6 Jokic
9.4 Davis
9.3 Lillard

[greekbuck34]

Giannis gets away with travels and cheap fouls even more than Harden, so it's shouldn't be a part of the criteria for this award. This league is what it is, players are gonna take advantage of it, Harden just does it best. No one can deny that his skills are elite.

I don't think anyone is denying his skills are elite. He averages 38ppg, so clearly he is an all-time tremendous scorer.

Harden just has a legacy of flopping and shrinking in the clutch which impacts how he is perceived. You innately have more respect for a guy like Giannis than for Harden due to who they are as people and in how they carry their team when it matters.

Sports is a metaphor for life, which is why we identify with it so much. Which player do you want on your side and whom do you want to follow into battle-- Giannis or Harden? As long as both are putting up amazing stats (and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

On the Christmas game he got poked so hard in the eye he couldn't see for the rest of the game.

No foul, not a review and a tech for Giannis for complaining.

In the game against the Spurs he got wacked so hard in the face he was dazed for a few seconds.

Foul, review, common foul.

Huge protection.

[Patches Perry]

I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.

Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

I agree that if Houston can get to the 1st seed with a comparable record to Milwaukee, then Harden's chances are much greater. Both are having insanely good individual seasons, so team record will probably dictate who wins.

[Perseus1966]

Gooner ,depressed arsenal fan

Milwaukee Bucks can only dream of being as iconic of a club as Arsenal.

Funny thing is i am(was Highbury era) an Arsenal fan ...