Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

[StunnerKO]

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[dice]

The depleted Nets take down the Heat. Good win, bad loss. The Bam and Butler show again. Bam 22/6/6, Butler 33/9/9, but the supporting cast didn't get the job done. Dinwiddie had 26 points, 14 assists. He might be as good as Cam Payne someday. Oh yeah, I forget, Payne was a lottery pick. So of course GarPax would prefer him.

The shade...

one of my favorite thing to post repeatedly... At one point in 2016 the Bulls had 6 PGs and apparently decided they can only keep 5 of them. They decided to keep Rondo, Canaan, Grant, Payne, and MCW, and cut Dinwiddie. Where are them 5 now? Rondo was let go the next season, the other 4 is out of the league?

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

[DASMACKDOWN]

Even the Knicks are routinely pulling out a meaningful victory every now and then.

We still haven't.

[kingkirk]

The shade...

one of my favorite thing to post repeatedly... At one point in 2016 the Bulls had 6 PGs and apparently decided they can only keep 5 of them. They decided to keep Rondo, Canaan, Grant, Payne, and MCW, and cut Dinwiddie. Where are them 5 now? Rondo was let go the next season, the other 4 is out of the league?

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

[johnnyvann840]

one of my favorite thing to post repeatedly... At one point in 2016 the Bulls had 6 PGs and apparently decided they can only keep 5 of them. They decided to keep Rondo, Canaan, Grant, Payne, and MCW, and cut Dinwiddie. Where are them 5 now? Rondo was let go the next season, the other 4 is out of the league?

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

I was begging for the Bulls to keep him and give him a roster spot that summer. I know Homo and a few others were with me on that. I admit I may have been a bit biased because he was from Colorado, but I wanted him on the Bulls and said they were idiots for keeping some of the people they did over him at the time. Look it up if you can find that summer league thread you will see I'm not making it up.

[kingkirk]

I was begging for the Bulls to keep him and give him a roster spot that summer. I know Homo and a few others were with me on that. I admit I may have been a bit biased because he was from Colorado, but I wanted him on the Bulls and said they were idiots for keeping some of the people they did over him at the time. Look it up if you can find that summer league thread you will see I'm not making it up.

Agree.

Maybe no one saw him becoming this good, but many people, including many on this board, thought he could grow into a rotational guy who deserved a roster spot.

You have him there’s no need to trade for MCW, and certainly no reason to get owned in the Payne trade.

[dice]

one of my favorite thing to post repeatedly... At one point in 2016 the Bulls had 6 PGs and apparently decided they can only keep 5 of them. They decided to keep Rondo, Canaan, Grant, Payne, and MCW, and cut Dinwiddie. Where are them 5 now? Rondo was let go the next season, the other 4 is out of the league?

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

who are "draft people" and why did none of them on a single team in the league take a chance on him if they were high on him?

the trades for MCW and payne were independently bad moves. but there were countless middling players across the league that teams valued more than dinwiddie

[kingkirk]

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

who are "draft people" and why did none of them on a single team in the league take a chance on him if they were high on him?

the trades for MCW and payne were independently bad moves. but there were countless middling players across the league that teams valued more than dinwiddie

Playing whataboutism because other teams did not draft Dinwiddie doesn’t mean no one thought he could be a good player.

The Bulls had him here. He played well for them. He showed signs here. They, more than any other team, should have known he was worth a roster spot.

[MrSparkle]

I dunno why, but I've been watching some Knicks games. I guess they've played some good teams recently. Don't get me wrong, they're pretty bad - RJ has solid offensive skills, but he also has that Wiggins "nothing past gear-2" kind of a game. Of course he's young and has a good enough floor to make a fringe, or maybe even all-star of himself (DeRozan with a 3P-ball?). His best asset is he can really draw fouls at a high rate.

Anyway, the real point of my ramble is that the Knicks are without a doubt a better team than the Bulls. They're lucky they played them twice, early in the Fizdale dysfunction. They're bigger, more athletic, rim protection, better passers. And I swear they had one of the worst Free Agencies I've ever seen for a big market with cap-space.

[dice]

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

who are "draft people" and why did none of them on a single team in the league take a chance on him if they were high on him?

the trades for MCW and payne were independently bad moves. but there were countless middling players across the league that teams valued more than dinwiddie

Playing whataboutism because other teams did not draft Dinwiddie doesn’t mean no one thought he could be a good player.

except that they all thought he WOULDN'T be a good player. and they were right. he sucked for 2 years

The Bulls had him here. He played well for them. He showed signs here. They, more than any other team, should have known he was worth a roster spot.

it's funny that instead of giving the bulls credit for trading for him and giving them a look when nobody else did you instead use it as a reason to criticize them

every organization across the league saw the same stuff you did, by the way. summer league is pretty meaningless. here is a list of guys who not only played merely well in summer league, but were summer league MVPs:

randy foye
nate robinson
jerryd bayless
josh selby
glen rice jr

if a summer league MVP isn't a sure thing to make it in the league, a guy who just plays well certainly can't be expected to

[kingkirk]

except that they all thought he WOULDN'T be a good player. and they were right. he sucked for 2 years.

You don’t know that. There could be a million and one reasons why Dinwiddie wasn’t picked up by Team X. It doesn’t only have to be that they didn’t like him e.g. no roster spots, didn’t have a second round pick to draft, he was taken before their selection etc.

it's funny that instead of giving the bulls credit for trading for him and giving them a look when nobody else did you instead use it as a reason to criticize them

every organization across the league saw the same stuff you did, by the way. summer league is pretty meaningless. here is a list of guys who not only played merely well in summer league, but were summer league MVPs:

randy foye
nate robinson
jerryd bayless
josh selby
glen rice jr

if a summer league MVP isn't a sure thing to make it in the league, a guy who just plays well certainly can't be expected to

If you read what I wrote, I gave them credit for trading for him. It was a great trade, one I endorsed at the time. It would’ve been an all-timer had they kept him. They waived him because they valued bums who most definitely were exactly that.

But if you think missing out on Dinwiddie is justifiable, enjoy doing so!

[dice]

except that they all thought he WOULDN'T be a good player. and they were right. he sucked for 2 years.

You don’t know that. There could be a million and one reasons why Dinwiddie wasn’t picked up by Team X. It doesn’t only have to be that they didn’t like him e.g. no roster spots, didn’t have a second round pick to draft, he was taken before their selection etc.

if you think a guy's going to be a good player you don't let him slip into the middle of the 2nd round. and you certainly find a spot on a 15 man roster

it's funny that instead of giving the bulls credit for trading for him and giving them a look when nobody else did you instead use it as a reason to criticize them

every organization across the league saw the same stuff you did, by the way. summer league is pretty meaningless. here is a list of guys who not only played merely well in summer league, but were summer league MVPs:

randy foye
nate robinson
jerryd bayless
josh selby
glen rice jr

if a summer league MVP isn't a sure thing to make it in the league, a guy who just plays well certainly can't be expected to

If you read what I wrote, I gave them credit for trading for him. It was a great trade, one I endorsed at the time. It would’ve been an all-timer had they kept him. They waived him because they valued bums who most definitely were exactly that.

dinwiddie had shown to be every bit as much of a bum as payne to that point in his career

But if you think missing out on Dinwiddie is justifiable, enjoy doing so!

i don't know if it was justifiable. i certainly didn't care for trading for payne or MCW. but it made at LEAST as much sense to take a chance on payne as dinwiddie. a #14 pick who had played poorly in limited time as a pro vs a 2nd rounder with a very similar resume...

payne w/ thunder per 36: 14/4/5/2to/2s 46%ts
dinwiddie w/ pistons per 36: 12/4/7/2to/1s 40%ts

both w/ injury concerns, both in and out of D league...but hey, dinwiddie had a nice summer league, right?

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2019/07/17/report-mavs-nba-summer-league-standout-cameron-payne-agrees-to-deal-with-toronto-raptors/

Watch on YouTube

and by the way, dinwiddie really wasn't very good for us in summer league! per 36:

15/5/4/3to/1s 47.5% ts

[HomoSapien]

I was begging for the Bulls to keep him and give him a roster spot that summer. I know Homo and a few others were with me on that. I admit I may have been a bit biased because he was from Colorado, but I wanted him on the Bulls and said they were idiots for keeping some of the people they did over him at the time. Look it up if you can find that summer league thread you will see I'm not making it up.

Agree.

Maybe no one saw him becoming this good, but many people, including many on this board, thought he could grow into a rotational guy who deserved a roster spot.

You have him there’s no need to trade for MCW, and certainly no reason to get owned in the Payne trade.

It was just so obvious that the guy could play. As to Dice's point, it's irrelevant that so many people passed him up in the draft. The issue is that we had him on our roster and were unable to properly evaluate his potential. Detroit is just as much on the hook too.

[kingkirk]

i don't know if it was justifiable. i certainly didn't care for trading for payne or MCW. but it made at LEAST as much sense to take a chance on payne as dinwiddie. a #14 pick who had played poorly in limited time as a pro vs a 2nd rounder with a very similar resume...

payne w/ thunder per 36: 14/4/5/2to/2s 46%ts
dinwiddie w/ pistons per 36: 12/4/7/2to/1s 40%ts

both w/ injury concerns, both in and out of D league...but hey, dinwiddie had a nice summer league, right?

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2019/07/17/report-mavs-nba-summer-league-standout-cameron-payne-agrees-to-deal-with-toronto-raptors/

Watch on YouTube

and by the way, dinwiddie really wasn't very good for us in summer league! per 36:

15/5/4/3to/1s 47.5% ts

It cost the Bulls Taj Gibson (the best player in the deal), Doug McDermott (the guy they traded five picks for, and someone who has more value than Payne) plus a second rounder (Mitchell Robinson) to take a chance on Payne and two guys who were never going to last beyond the season.

It cost the Bulls Cameron Bairstow to take a chance on Dinwiddie.

Factoring this into the equation, no, I don't think made "at LEAST as much sense" to take a chance on Payne as Dinwiddie.

It's not even close.

[samwana]

There was a lot to like about Dinwiddie, he played solid and showed more promise in his role than Grant.

The trade for MCW was stupid on so many levels. He never showed he could be a PG. We already had Rondo to be a non-shooting PG. He had a few nice games against us and had a ROY on his resumé. That's all GarPax need to know apparently.

We didn't need a PG at the time and needed 3pt shooting. We traded for a PG with no 3pt shot at all and traded away a 3pt shooter albeit a streaky one. They were both extremely flawed players but at least Snell could shoot sometimes.

It was a bad move and all you need to do is look where the players involved are now.

Dinwiddie fell in the draft because of injury. Not because he couldn't play. All in all it worked out a lot better for Dinwiddie than it did for us.

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[kodo]

I remember everyone here really liked Dinwiddie during the summer and thought it was a solid no-cost move, his #s during the SL didn't really reflect that he looked poised and had potential. Foreman outplayed himself on that move.

It cost the Bulls Taj Gibson (the best player in the deal), Doug McDermott (the guy they traded five picks for, and someone who has more value than Payne) plus a second rounder (Mitchell Robinson) to take a chance on Payne and two guys who were never going to last beyond the season.

It cost the Bulls Cameron Bairstow to take a chance on Dinwiddie.

Factoring this into the equation, no, I don't think made "at LEAST as much sense" to take a chance on Payne as Dinwiddie.

It's not even close.

Taj was not going to be resigned and neither was Doug. This is the equivalent of saying Cleveland was a bad FO because they traded Lebron James for Miami's 30th pick Nedovic in 2013. CLE traded Lebron for the 30th pick because it was better than nothing.

Trading Taj & Doug was also a "better than nothing" deal because the Bulls weren't going to be resigning either to long term contracts.

It's also worth noting the team that traded for both Taj & Doug OKC didn't keep either player either. If either had that much value, you would think OKC would have kept them.

Payne was a bust but it didn't cost the Bulls anything, unless someone is going to argue we could have won a title or something if we had Taj & Doug for the 20 games they played in OKC uniforms instead of Chicago uniforms.

[RSP83]

dinwiddie was a 2nd round pick (i.e. every team in the league passed on him once). he was in and out of the D-league for TWO FULL SEASONS and was absolutely atrocious in the little nba opportunity he got before being given up on by the pistons. after the bulls traded for him and waived him, SEVEN WEEKS later the nets signed him to a 2 year min contract. so no other team in the league showed any particular interest. he's a bad shooter and defender

let's not pretend that missing out on spencer dinwiddie was some boneheaded oversight

It was a dumbass move because he was in their building and played well for the Bulls in summer league, to the point where you didn’t need to trade for MCW, a failed draft pick who was never changing anything and most certainly didn’t fit on this roster.

At the time of the trade, people thought it was a good trade to land Dinwiddie. He fell in the draft because of injuries, not because he sucked. Draft people were still high on him. They were right.

who are "draft people" and why did none of them on a single team in the league take a chance on him if they were high on him?

the trades for MCW and payne were independently bad moves. but there were countless middling players across the league that teams valued more than dinwiddie

Dinwiddie was a first round prospect before he got injured in college. Understood that he was a non-factor in Detroit, and I didn't have any expectation for him coming in to Chicago. But that season I think most Bulls fans were monitoring the PG situation, especially those who is curious about whether Jerian Grant is going to develop into a starting caliber PG? is Cam Payne going to prove people wrong? can Denzel play point guard? and Dinwiddie kinda got thrown into the mix during that Summer League. And I remember being pretty impressed by his showing, before he got waived before the Summer League finished to make room for MCW if I remember correctly. I actually liked Dinwiddie over Grant and Payne because of his length and moves more fluid with the ball, I thought it was very clear than Dinwiddie looked more comfortable playing the point than those 2.

It has nothing to do with there are other players that teams valued more than Dinwiddie, it was just bad judgement of talent when it was clear that the guys the FO chose were not better players than the guy they cut. Seriously, that summer, it was very clear who was the worst, Cam Payne. Grant at least has SL MVP title to show that he deserves to stay. The MCW trade was so unnecessary since we already have Rondo, and if the Bulls liked Grant so much why don't just stuck with him as backup. Cut Payne, and Bulls would still have Canaan and Dinwiddie. I think the real reason why the FO kept Grant and Payne instead of Dinwiddie, is because both used to be GarPax favorite draft prospects, and they basically traded former MVP Rose, McDermott, and fan favorite Taj Gibson for them... they were just avoiding being the laughing stock. And that's why they're dumbasses...

[MrSparkle]

I remember everyone here really liked Dinwiddie during the summer and thought it was a solid no-cost move, his #s during the SL didn't really reflect that he looked poised and had potential. Foreman outplayed himself on that move.

It cost the Bulls Taj Gibson (the best player in the deal), Doug McDermott (the guy they traded five picks for, and someone who has more value than Payne) plus a second rounder (Mitchell Robinson) to take a chance on Payne and two guys who were never going to last beyond the season.

It cost the Bulls Cameron Bairstow to take a chance on Dinwiddie.

Factoring this into the equation, no, I don't think made "at LEAST as much sense" to take a chance on Payne as Dinwiddie.

It's not even close.

Taj was not going to be resigned and neither was Doug. This is the equivalent of saying Cleveland was a bad FO because they traded Lebron James for Miami's 30th pick Nedovic in 2013. CLE traded Lebron for the 30th pick because it was better than nothing.

Trading Taj & Doug was also a "better than nothing" deal because the Bulls weren't going to be resigning either to long term contracts.

It's also worth noting the team that traded for both Taj & Doug OKC didn't keep either player either. If either had that much value, you would think OKC would have kept them.

Payne was a bust but it didn't cost the Bulls anything, unless someone is going to argue we could have won a title or something if we had Taj & Doug for the 20 games they played in OKC uniforms instead of Chicago uniforms.

Taj was irrelevant at that point, but I would've gladly kept Doug over bringing in Payne. In hindsight, while I supported moving Taj to a better situation, I actually would've preferred to just dump Bobby and Niko then and there.

The roulette of guards was exhausting. MCW, Grant, Payne - just awful. In hindsight, they could've frankly just signed all the waiver market scrubs, Calderon and Lin (in addition to Rondo), and done a little better.

But I agree, I recall most the board being high on Dinwiddie. The trade seemed bone-headed on Detroit's end, and he was balling in SL and generally brought a lot of skills to the table. That's the problem with throwing all these blind darts - they got all these PGs with guaranteed rookie salaries. Rookie salaries add up, and they're actually not great value if playing the young guy is worse than putting a jersey on Gar Forman and seeing him make a play.

Cam and Grant were miserable wastes of Reinsdorf's money. I don't care if they were a combined $5-8m, whatever it was. They were completely useless roster pieces. Should've kept the cheapest guy of them all: Dinwiddie.

And moved one of the 8 G-League players on the roster. Man, so many of them. From Zipser to Felicio.

[Mech Engineer]

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That's so great to hear. Taj is still balling even if he has slowed down. He is smart. He got paid from the Knicks with their capspace, is having the MSG experience and will get moved sooner or later to some contending team.

He still could have helped the Bulls as a 3rd big and maybe he was what was needed for Lauri rather than more young guys or the goofy Lopez as a mentor.