Around the NBA #3 - Kevin Twitterfingers' RGM Burner Edition

[DOT]

this is kinda sad to be honest

Game is almost unwatchable at this point. There's no distinct personalities in the NBA, in terms of teams. Every team plays the same or tries to play the same. I was big fan of the way the Dan Tony Suns played but it's not the same if everyone is only trying to shoot 3s.

It's funny, in the NFL while teams are leaning towards passing more, you still see a variation. The Ravens, Titans and Niners all like to run the ball more and are successful. I'd like to see different types of success in the NBA.

Yeah. There isn't anything to take away from how the NBA is other than, "more threes please". Each of the top teams shoots a high volume of 3 point shots. We even had a coach who states that he doesn't want his players to play in the post (Dallas).

And with the rules discouraging players from playing actual defense

So, these statements are false, second one is false cause Carlisle was specifically talking about KP posting up being a bad shot, not post play in general. KP posting up is a bad shot because he's not a good post player and he adds more to the offense by being a floor spacer. Luka posting up is a good play because he's good at posting up. Same goes for Embiid and Jokic. There's just so few players in the league that can consistently score from the post effectively anymore

Then let's look at the top teams, which we'll use the definition of 25 or more wins, which encompasses the top 6 teams in each conference

How each team ranks in 3 pointers attempted per game (ranked by overall record)

Milwaukee - 4
Lakers - 23
Utah - 19
Boston - 13
Denver - 26
Miami - 14
Clippers - 17
Houston - 1
Toronto - 7
Indiana - 30
Philadelphia - 25
Dallas - 2

So, right off the bat, most of the top teams don't take a lot of threes with the exception of Milwaukee. In fact, the data appears to show that there's not very much correlation between 3PA and wins, otherwise Minnesota and New Orleans (3rd and 5th in 3PA respectively) would be significantly better. Now those teams ranked by their Drtg


Milwaukee - 1
Lakers - 3
Utah - 8
Boston - 4
Denver - 12
Miami - 13
Clippers - 7
Houston - 15
Toronto - 2
Indiana - 10
Philadelphia - 6
Dallas - 16

This shows a much stronger correlation between defense and wins than 3PA and wins. Whereas with 3PA, four teams in the bottom 10 were able to win games, only one of the top teams has a Drtg outside of the top half of the league, and they're the worst top team

Teams are taking much more 3 pointers as a whole, and offense as a whole is significantly more efficient than it was even 10 years ago. Plus the rules on defense have changed. But the data seems to indicate that playing defense is a much better way to win games than simply taking more threes. You can say "back in my day, defenses were tough" or something, and I'm not gonna dispute that cause it's not quantifiable and I wasn't around to see it. I'm just disputing the notion that the only thing that matters today is 3PA, cause that's demonstrably false

[dakomish23]

Watch on YouTube

Ja is so good.

Never understood the hate for Ja. He is special

He has that SUPERSTAR level potential. Already playing like an All-Star in his rookie year. Should have been the consensus No.1 pick. Memphis did amazing in their last 2 drafts. Jaren Jackson, Morant, Clarke.

The Grizzlies are already the 8th seed in the West. That was a lightning quick rebuild since trading away Marc Gasol and Mike Conley. Having at least a half-competent front-office is nice.

Don’t forget about acquiring Melton in a salary dump and acquiring Allen in the Conley deal, two role players for this team.

Mix in the asset acquisition and they’ve done some good things while rebuilding. I don’t expect them to make the final 8.

[Jstock12]

Never understood the hate for Ja. He is special

He has that SUPERSTAR level potential. Already playing like an All-Star in his rookie year. Should have been the consensus No.1 pick. Memphis did amazing in their last 2 drafts. Jaren Jackson, Morant, Clarke.

The Grizzlies are already the 8th seed in the West. That was a lightning quick rebuild since trading away Marc Gasol and Mike Conley. Having at least a half-competent front-office is nice.

Don’t forget about acquiring Melton in a salary dump and acquiring Allen in the Conley deal, two role players for this team.

Mix in the asset acquisition and they’ve done some good things while rebuilding. I don’t expect them to make the final 8.

Valanciunas is also playing the best basketball of his career. 15/10/2/1 with 60% from the field and 43% from three. They can definitely take the 8th seed. Enough talent for a playoff spot in the weakened WC.

[Fury]

Game is almost unwatchable at this point. There's no distinct personalities in the NBA, in terms of teams. Every team plays the same or tries to play the same. I was big fan of the way the Dan Tony Suns played but it's not the same if everyone is only trying to shoot 3s.

It's funny, in the NFL while teams are leaning towards passing more, you still see a variation. The Ravens, Titans and Niners all like to run the ball more and are successful. I'd like to see different types of success in the NBA.

Yeah. There isn't anything to take away from how the NBA is other than, "more threes please". Each of the top teams shoots a high volume of 3 point shots. We even had a coach who states that he doesn't want his players to play in the post (Dallas).

And with the rules discouraging players from playing actual defense

So, these statements are false, second one is false cause Carlisle was specifically talking about KP posting up being a bad shot, not post play in general. KP posting up is a bad shot because he's not a good post player and he adds more to the offense by being a floor spacer. Luka posting up is a good play because he's good at posting up. Same goes for Embiid and Jokic. There's just so few players in the league that can consistently score from the post effectively anymore

Then let's look at the top teams, which we'll use the definition of 25 or more wins, which encompasses the top 6 teams in each conference

How each team ranks in 3 pointers attempted per game (ranked by overall record)

Milwaukee - 4
Lakers - 23
Utah - 19
Boston - 13
Denver - 26
Miami - 14
Clippers - 17
Houston - 1
Toronto - 7
Indiana - 30
Philadelphia - 25
Dallas - 2

So, right off the bat, most of the top teams don't take a lot of threes with the exception of Milwaukee. In fact, the data appears to show that there's not very much correlation between 3PA and wins, otherwise Minnesota and New Orleans (3rd and 5th in 3PA respectively) would be significantly better. Now those teams ranked by their Drtg


Milwaukee - 1
Lakers - 3
Utah - 8
Boston - 4
Denver - 12
Miami - 13
Clippers - 7
Houston - 15
Toronto - 2
Indiana - 10
Philadelphia - 6
Dallas - 16

This shows a much stronger correlation between defense and wins than 3PA and wins. Whereas with 3PA, four teams in the bottom 10 were able to win games, only one of the top teams has a Drtg outside of the top half of the league, and they're the worst top team

Teams are taking much more 3 pointers as a whole, and offense as a whole is significantly more efficient than it was even 10 years ago. Plus the rules on defense have changed. But the data seems to indicate that playing defense is a much better way to win games than simply taking more threes. You can say "back in my day, defenses were tough" or something, and I'm not gonna dispute that cause it's not quantifiable and I wasn't around to see it. I'm just disputing the notion that the only thing that matters today is 3PA, cause that's demonstrably false

No one said anything about wins (at least I don't think they did). But the Lakers for example, take 30 3s a game. And they're considered a team that doesn't take many 3s. That's the point.

EDIT: He said top teams but yeah even the top teams that are ranked in the 20s shoot a high volume of 3s.

[SWYM]

Watch on YouTube

Ja is so good.

Never understood the hate for Ja. He is special

He has that SUPERSTAR level potential. Already playing like an All-Star in his rookie year. Should have been the consensus No.1 pick. Memphis did amazing in their last 2 drafts. Jaren Jackson, Morant, Clarke.

The Grizzlies are already the 8th seed in the West. That was a lightning quick rebuild since trading away Marc Gasol and Mike Conley. Having at least a half-competent front-office is nice.

Proof that a competent FO can significantly accelerate the rebuilding process.

When you have a clown show FO, firings come and elongates the rebuild.

[god shammgod]

Game is almost unwatchable at this point. There's no distinct personalities in the NBA, in terms of teams. Every team plays the same or tries to play the same. I was big fan of the way the Dan Tony Suns played but it's not the same if everyone is only trying to shoot 3s.

It's funny, in the NFL while teams are leaning towards passing more, you still see a variation. The Ravens, Titans and Niners all like to run the ball more and are successful. I'd like to see different types of success in the NBA.

Yeah. There isn't anything to take away from how the NBA is other than, "more threes please". Each of the top teams shoots a high volume of 3 point shots. We even had a coach who states that he doesn't want his players to play in the post (Dallas).

And with the rules discouraging players from playing actual defense

So, these statements are false, second one is false cause Carlisle was specifically talking about KP posting up being a bad shot, not post play in general. KP posting up is a bad shot because he's not a good post player and he adds more to the offense by being a floor spacer. Luka posting up is a good play because he's good at posting up. Same goes for Embiid and Jokic. There's just so few players in the league that can consistently score from the post effectively anymore

Then let's look at the top teams, which we'll use the definition of 25 or more wins, which encompasses the top 6 teams in each conference

How each team ranks in 3 pointers attempted per game (ranked by overall record)

Milwaukee - 4
Lakers - 23
Utah - 19
Boston - 13
Denver - 26
Miami - 14
Clippers - 17
Houston - 1
Toronto - 7
Indiana - 30
Philadelphia - 25
Dallas - 2

So, right off the bat, most of the top teams don't take a lot of threes with the exception of Milwaukee. In fact, the data appears to show that there's not very much correlation between 3PA and wins, otherwise Minnesota and New Orleans (3rd and 5th in 3PA respectively) would be significantly better. Now those teams ranked by their Drtg


Milwaukee - 1
Lakers - 3
Utah - 8
Boston - 4
Denver - 12
Miami - 13
Clippers - 7
Houston - 15
Toronto - 2
Indiana - 10
Philadelphia - 6
Dallas - 16

This shows a much stronger correlation between defense and wins than 3PA and wins. Whereas with 3PA, four teams in the bottom 10 were able to win games, only one of the top teams has a Drtg outside of the top half of the league, and they're the worst top team

Teams are taking much more 3 pointers as a whole, and offense as a whole is significantly more efficient than it was even 10 years ago. Plus the rules on defense have changed. But the data seems to indicate that playing defense is a much better way to win games than simply taking more threes. You can say "back in my day, defenses were tough" or something, and I'm not gonna dispute that cause it's not quantifiable and I wasn't around to see it. I'm just disputing the notion that the only thing that matters today is 3PA, cause that's demonstrably false

you're right. i think it's just less enjoyable to watch. the team taking the least amount of 3 pointers in the league right now is surely taking more than the team that took the most in 2010. and i think defense still matters a ton obviously but the type of defense being played has also changed. the physicality of it has been eliminated more and more. even i would say, individual defense matters less and team defense matters more. there's very few "this guy vs this guy" battles in games anymore because everyone is always switching and you don't make top offensive players guard each other as much anymore. you save their energy for offense.

[DOT]

No one said anything about wins (at least I don't think they did). But the Lakers for example, take 30 3s a game. And they're considered a team that doesn't take many 3s. That's the point.

No, he specifically said "each of the top teams take a high volume of 3s"

And my point was that teams as a whole take way more 3s now, but 3 pointers attempted relative to the rest of the league isn't as important is defense, which people claim is completely irrelevant today because they see big numbers in the box score

It's just the nature of math. A 33% 3pt shooter is as valuable as a 50% 2 point shooter, and a 40% 3pt shooter is as valuable as a 60% 2 point shooter. The only way to fix it would be to make 2s worth 3 and 3s worth 4, cause then you change the math on how much a shot is worth, so now a 33% 4pt shooter would only be worth a 44% 3pt shooter instead of 50% in the old model

Plus, teams just play faster today. The lowest pace team this year would still be higher than any team in 02. You can do stuff to tweak rules, but if the math stays the same, this is what good teams are gonna strive to do

If you brought Shaq in to today, he'd be even more dominant with all this spacing

[omerome]

Game is almost unwatchable at this point. There's no distinct personalities in the NBA, in terms of teams. Every team plays the same or tries to play the same. I was big fan of the way the Dan Tony Suns played but it's not the same if everyone is only trying to shoot 3s.

It's funny, in the NFL while teams are leaning towards passing more, you still see a variation. The Ravens, Titans and Niners all like to run the ball more and are successful. I'd like to see different types of success in the NBA.

Yeah. There isn't anything to take away from how the NBA is other than, "more threes please". Each of the top teams shoots a high volume of 3 point shots. We even had a coach who states that he doesn't want his players to play in the post (Dallas).

And with the rules discouraging players from playing actual defense

So, these statements are false, second one is false cause Carlisle was specifically talking about KP posting up being a bad shot, not post play in general. KP posting up is a bad shot because he's not a good post player and he adds more to the offense by being a floor spacer. Luka posting up is a good play because he's good at posting up. Same goes for Embiid and Jokic. There's just so few players in the league that can consistently score from the post effectively anymore

Then let's look at the top teams, which we'll use the definition of 25 or more wins, which encompasses the top 6 teams in each conference

How each team ranks in 3 pointers attempted per game (ranked by overall record)

Milwaukee - 4
Lakers - 23
Utah - 19
Boston - 13
Denver - 26
Miami - 14
Clippers - 17
Houston - 1
Toronto - 7
Indiana - 30
Philadelphia - 25
Dallas - 2

So, right off the bat, most of the top teams don't take a lot of threes with the exception of Milwaukee. In fact, the data appears to show that there's not very much correlation between 3PA and wins, otherwise Minnesota and New Orleans (3rd and 5th in 3PA respectively) would be significantly better. Now those teams ranked by their Drtg


Milwaukee - 1
Lakers - 3
Utah - 8
Boston - 4
Denver - 12
Miami - 13
Clippers - 7
Houston - 15
Toronto - 2
Indiana - 10
Philadelphia - 6
Dallas - 16

This shows a much stronger correlation between defense and wins than 3PA and wins. Whereas with 3PA, four teams in the bottom 10 were able to win games, only one of the top teams has a Drtg outside of the top half of the league, and they're the worst top team

Teams are taking much more 3 pointers as a whole, and offense as a whole is significantly more efficient than it was even 10 years ago. Plus the rules on defense have changed. But the data seems to indicate that playing defense is a much better way to win games than simply taking more threes. You can say "back in my day, defenses were tough" or something, and I'm not gonna dispute that cause it's not quantifiable and I wasn't around to see it. I'm just disputing the notion that the only thing that matters today is 3PA, cause that's demonstrably false

I am not talking about comparing 3 point shots compared to the rest of the league, I am talking about in general - across the board. 30 three-point shots is a lot of attempts when you looked at the game 20 years ago. If anything, teams attempting more than that just enforces my point which is even more mind-boggling.

And okay, I may have misunderstood what the coach said a little, but I am not completely wrong though. Look at teams today compared to before. Big men in the realm of the traditional back-to-the-basket types are rare. Big men are encouraged to spread the floor like everyone else. I mean look at Brook Lopez. He started out as a big who scored most of his points in the paint and now he's can be seen as another shooter. Marc Gasol is another example. The game is all about simply put, shooting threes and increasing the pace. I miss when the three-point shot was thought of as the "big shot" or the equalizer. You would grab that specialist off the bench to hit that dagger three for you in the clutch. The shot has lost a lot of its luster amongst other things in the league today.

[omerome]

Never understood the hate for Ja. He is special

He has that SUPERSTAR level potential. Already playing like an All-Star in his rookie year. Should have been the consensus No.1 pick. Memphis did amazing in their last 2 drafts. Jaren Jackson, Morant, Clarke.

The Grizzlies are already the 8th seed in the West. That was a lightning quick rebuild since trading away Marc Gasol and Mike Conley. Having at least a half-competent front-office is nice.

Proof that a competent FO can significantly accelerate the rebuilding process.

When you have a clown show FO, firings come and elongates the rebuild.

Or you get fortunate...I mean lucky by moving up in the draft and finding the player who can help accelerate the rebuilding process.

[DOT]

you're right. i think it's just less enjoyable to watch. the team taking the least amount of 3 pointers in the league right now is surely taking more than the team that took the most in 2010. and i think defense still matters a ton obviously but the type of defense being played has also changed. the physicality of it has been eliminated more and more. even i would say, individual defense matters less and team defense matters more. there's very few "this guys vs this guy" battles in games anymore because everyone is always switching and you don't make top offensive players guard each other as much anymore. you save their energy for offense.

Yeah, that's a completely fair take and I don't entirely disagree with it

It's just a fundamental flaw of the system and how points are scored. Somebody compared it to football, but a better comparison would be if rushing touchdowns were only worth 4 points compared to 6 for passing. Yeah, a rushing touchdown is a much higher probability, but because it's worth less, it's less valuable except in certain situations

The big problem is just the lack of quality post players in the league. None of these guys can hold a candle to the 90's guys, let alone Shaq, so perimeter players dominate

[Fury]

No one said anything about wins (at least I don't think they did). But the Lakers for example, take 30 3s a game. And they're considered a team that doesn't take many 3s. That's the point.

No, he specifically said "each of the top teams take a high volume of 3s"

And my point was that teams as a whole take way more 3s now, but 3 pointers attempted relative to the rest of the league isn't as important is defense, which people claim is completely irrelevant today because they see big numbers in the box score

It's just the nature of math. A 33% 3pt shooter is as valuable as a 50% 2 point shooter, and a 40% 3pt shooter is as valuable as a 60% 2 point shooter. The only way to fix it would be to make 2s worth 3 and 3s worth 4, cause then you change the math on how much a shot is worth, so now a 33% 4pt shooter would only be worth a 44% 3pt shooter instead of 50% in the old model

Plus, teams just play faster today. The lowest pace team this year would still be higher than any team in 02. You can do stuff to tweak rules, but if the math stays the same, this is what good teams are gonna strive to do

If you brought Shaq in to today, he'd be even more dominant with all this spacing

Ok, but top teams do take a high volume of 3s. Which is the whole point of this convo. And it isn't fun to watch. Well, for me it isn't.

[DOT]

I am not talking about comparing 3 point shots compared to the rest of the league, I am talking about in general - across the board. 30 three-point shots is a lot of attempts when you looked at the game 20 years ago. If anything, teams attempting more than that just enforces my point which is even more mind-boggling.

And okay, I may have misunderstood what the coach said a little, but I am not completely wrong though. Look at teams today compared to before. Big men in the realm of the traditional back-to-the-basket types are rare. Big men are encouraged to spread the floor like everyone else. I mean look at Brook Lopez. He started out as a big who scored most of his points in the paint and now he's can be seen as another shooter. Marc Gasol is another example. The game is all about simply put, shooting threes and increasing the pace. I miss when the three-point shot was thought of as the "big shot" or the equalizer. You would grab that specialist off the bench to hit that dagger three for you in the clutch. The shot has lost a lot of its luster amongst other things in the league today.

Really what it comes down to is nostalgia

You have very fond memories of the game in your childhood, so you romanticize that as the pinnacle of basketball. Kids today will do the same with this era when we move on from it, and I'm sure old people in the 90s were complaining about how much better the game was back in their day as well. It's the human condition

I don't think this era is any better or worse than those that came before or after. It's just different. Except for the pre-Russell era basketball, that makes me want to gouge my eyes out watching it

[DOT]

Ok, but top teams do take a high volume of 3s. Which is the whole point of this convo. And it isn't fun to watch. Well, for me it isn't.

And what I'm saying is, that's relative. Relative to ten years ago, yes. Relative to today, no.

Enjoyment is completely subjective. I'm not gonna tell you you should have more fun watching this than older basketball, but I know a lot of people disagree with you about it being less fun

It just really comes off as "old man yells at cloud" when people start talking about it being objectively worse now than it used to be

[Fury]

Ok, but top teams do take a high volume of 3s. Which is the whole point of this convo. And it isn't fun to watch. Well, for me it isn't.

And what I'm saying is, that's relative. Relative to ten years ago, yes. Relative to today, no.

Enjoyment is completely subjective. I'm not gonna tell you you should have more fun watching this than older basketball, but I know a lot of people disagree with you about it being less fun

It just really comes off as "old man yells at cloud" when people start talking about it being objectively worse now than it used to be

Exactly. Lets move on.

[god shammgod]

I am not talking about comparing 3 point shots compared to the rest of the league, I am talking about in general - across the board. 30 three-point shots is a lot of attempts when you looked at the game 20 years ago. If anything, teams attempting more than that just enforces my point which is even more mind-boggling.

And okay, I may have misunderstood what the coach said a little, but I am not completely wrong though. Look at teams today compared to before. Big men in the realm of the traditional back-to-the-basket types are rare. Big men are encouraged to spread the floor like everyone else. I mean look at Brook Lopez. He started out as a big who scored most of his points in the paint and now he's can be seen as another shooter. Marc Gasol is another example. The game is all about simply put, shooting threes and increasing the pace. I miss when the three-point shot was thought of as the "big shot" or the equalizer. You would grab that specialist off the bench to hit that dagger three for you in the clutch. The shot has lost a lot of its luster amongst other things in the league today.

Really what it comes down to is nostalgia

You have very fond memories of the game in your childhood, so you romanticize that as the pinnacle of basketball. Kids today will do the same with this era when we move on from it, and I'm sure old people in the 90s were complaining about how much better the game was back in their day as well. It's the human condition

I don't think this era is any better or worse than those that came before or after. It's just different. Except for the pre-Russell era basketball, that makes me want to gouge my eyes out watching it

i don't know. we definitely are all victims to that as we get older but i don't think that's it in this case. i don't actually think the 90s were the best time for basketball. games were too slow and low scoring then and i feel like they're gone too much the other way now. it's pretty recent that it has become this way. maybe right after golden state became a thing. i don't really have complaints about the nba between 2000-2014/15.

[DOT]

i don't know. we definitely are all victims to that as we get older but i don't think that's it in this case. i don't actually think the 90s were the best time for basketball. games were too slow and low scoring then and i feel like they're gone too much the other way now. it's pretty recent that it has become this way. maybe right after golden state became a thing. i don't really have complaints about the nba between 2000-2014/15.

I think the general consensus is the mid 00s were pretty bad, cause you still had the slow pace and relative inefficiency of the 90s, but no MJ to make up for it

I do agree that we've gone too far in the direction of fast pace and scoring for my tastes, but I feel like it'll swing back at some point. I think it'll also help to not have the Finals be a foregone conclusion any more, like, once KD was on the Warriors, the regular season just felt like a formality. Now, there's at least some variety

[Rasho Brezec]

Read on Twitter

this is kinda sad to be honest

Ok boomer.

[GEOLINK]

Read on Twitter

this is kinda sad to be honest

Ok boomer.

No wonder ratings are dropping.

Regular NBA games are played like All-Star Games at this point.

[Dave DaButcher]

He was undoubtedly ready last week but was too much of a snowflake to handle the bright lights and big stage at MSG, where only heroes play.

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[Jstock12]

1-Get rid of the corner 3's
2-Move the 3-point line back a few inches
3-Award 2 free throws on 3-pointer shooting fouls unless it's the last 2 minutes of the game

I think that would help bring back more variety in the game.

Limit 3-point attempts to 30 a game. If the team exceeds that, every other 3PA becomes worth 2 points.