What is the argument against Chris Paul in the top 20?

[Lost92Bricks]

Health is obviously the big thing. I also wonder how valuable his defense truly is. But I want to focus on his offensive play style here.

He’s been overly conservative in his career. He is a mid range maestro, the dribble dribble dribble FT line jumper of his is a signature play from this era. Just turns bigs into dust on switches and drills the heaviest swishes from 15ft. But he never attacked the rim to a great degree and his assists weren’t in as high leverage areas as some other great primary ball handlers.

He reminds me of an NFL QB who throws for 28 TD and 6 INTs. Awesome efficiency but if he tried for more high leverage plays, a 36 TD and 10 INT season would arguably/probably imo make him into a scarier player who the defenses have to worry about.

Awesome player and in my Top 30 somewhere, but I do think he’s a hair overrated on here although I understand why.

You're thinking of the more recent version of him that has been past his athletic prime. Watch some games/highlights from his earlier years when he was athletic and much more aggressive. He was relentless.

[O_6]

Health is obviously the big thing. I also wonder how valuable his defense truly is. But I want to focus on his offensive play style here.

He’s been overly conservative in his career. He is a mid range maestro, the dribble dribble dribble FT line jumper of his is a signature play from this era. Just turns bigs into dust on switches and drills the heaviest swishes from 15ft. But he never attacked the rim to a great degree and his assists weren’t in as high leverage areas as some other great primary ball handlers.

He reminds me of an NFL QB who throws for 28 TD and 6 INTs. Awesome efficiency but if he tried for more high leverage plays, a 36 TD and 10 INT season would arguably/probably imo make him into a scarier player who the defenses have to worry about.

Awesome player and in my Top 30 somewhere, but I do think he’s a hair overrated on here although I understand why.

You're thinking of the version of him that was past his athletic prime. Watch some games/highlights from his earlier years when he was athletic. He was relentless.

Oh I know he was athletic as hell for his size. I think I remember him dunking on Howard around ‘08. He was impressive.

But he never attacked the rim consistently, he’d settle for those short jumpers because he was so money there. Despite having some great finishers around the rim for his career, his % of At Rim assists is also nothing special.

His ratio of Good:Bad plays on both ends of the court is incredible. Just special honestly. But I do think he lacked the ability to threaten the D with the “Great/Game-breaking” play that so many of the other Top 20 candidates could provide.

[Jaqua92]

Chris Paul belongs Nowhere near the top 20. That is beyond stupid. Come on guys.

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[Lost92Bricks]

Oh I know he was athletic as hell for his size. I think I remember him dunking on Howard around ‘08. He was impressive.

But he never attacked the rim consistently, he’d settle for those short jumpers because he was so money there. Despite having some great finishers around the rim for his career, his % of At Rim assists is also nothing special.

His ratio of Good:Bad plays on both ends of the court is incredible. Just special honestly. But I do think he lacked the ability to threaten the D with the “Great/Game-breaking” play that so many of the other Top 20 candidates could provide.

I can't think of a more game-breaking play than hitting a gamewinner over two defenders in a game 7.

[O_6]

Fair point. That was an amazing moment. But overall I just wish he took more risks and attempted more high leverage/risky plays. Awesome player, but I’m just nitpicking due to the thread.

Not even focusing on the big issue which was health.

[iggymcfrack]

Clippers playing at over +4 without Paul isn't a proof of weak supporting casts. People often compare Paul to Oscar and Royals without Big O collapsed. There is a clear difference between teammates they played with.

Paul is definitely worthy of top 20 talks, he's an incredible player and I don't buy idea that he's not good enough to lead his team to a title, but let's not go too far - he has his limitations and ranking him in top 10 ever is a bit too much. I'd definitely take him over someone like Durant, but he's not on KG level (both contemporaries).

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

[dygaction]

Clippers playing at over +4 without Paul isn't a proof of weak supporting casts. People often compare Paul to Oscar and Royals without Big O collapsed. There is a clear difference between teammates they played with.

Paul is definitely worthy of top 20 talks, he's an incredible player and I don't buy idea that he's not good enough to lead his team to a title, but let's not go too far - he has his limitations and ranking him in top 10 ever is a bit too much. I'd definitely take him over someone like Durant, but he's not on KG level (both contemporaries).

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

Paul does not belong in any of these three tiers, then I would switch KG with Magic, Russell, and Wilt.

[jdzimme3]

Curry and Wade are easily a tier above Paul for me. He has almost no argument against those guys.


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[trex_8063]

Chris Paul belongs Nowhere near the top 20. That is beyond stupid. Come on guys.

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If you're only going to add these kinds of comments to the discussion every 24 hours, don't bother dropping by tomorrow.

[Colbinii]

Chris Paul belongs Nowhere near the top 20. That is beyond stupid. Come on guys.

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If you're only going to add these kinds of comments to the discussion every 24 hours, don't bother dropping by tomorrow.

He made one in the other CP3 Thread as well.

Is this a joke thread to troll me, Lord of CP3 haters?

Paul in 2012-2017 to MJ's athletic peak?

**** me?

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I'm guessing his uncontrollable fandom for CP3 is just getting out of control with all these CP3 threads recently.

[dygaction]

Chris Paul belongs Nowhere near the top 20. That is beyond stupid. Come on guys.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

If you're only going to add these kinds of comments to the discussion every 24 hours, don't bother dropping by tomorrow.

He made one in the other CP3 Thread as well.

Is this a joke thread to troll me, Lord of CP3 haters?

Paul in 2012-2017 to MJ's athletic peak?

**** me?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I'm guessing his uncontrollable fandom for CP3 is just getting out of control with all these CP3 threads recently.

Don't think you should fault the second one. That was really a humiliating poll to start with. Really, you think CP3's those years and MJ's peak years should be compared?

[Colbinii]

Don't think you should fault the second one. That was really a humiliating poll to start with. Really, you think CP3's those years and MJ's peak years should be compared?

The thread was created because the OP didn't understand how people view CP3 as a top-20 level talent.

It's one thing to disagree with someone but when the best, most constructive posts in a thread about CP3 are in support of him and how he "could" be viewed as a top 20 player, making a thread like that is just childish.

But hey, I get it. Some of us have our heads so far up our own asses that anything that goes against our own belief system is inherently wrong and stupid. Instead of taking in what someone like Bad Gatorade says our pre-puberty selves take over and we make a thread comparing Paul to Jordan.

[trex_8063]

Don't think you should fault the second one. That was really a humiliating poll to start with. Really, you think CP3's those years and MJ's peak years should be compared?

The thread was created because the OP didn't understand how people view CP3 as a top-20 level talent.

It's one thing to disagree with someone but when the best, most constructive posts in a thread about CP3 are in support of him and how he "could" be viewed as a top 20 player, making a thread like that is just childish.

But hey, I get it. Some of us have our heads so far up our own asses that anything that goes against our own belief system is inherently wrong and stupid. Instead of taking in what someone like Bad Gatorade says our pre-puberty selves take over and we make a thread comparing Paul to Jordan.

A fair point, but the last paragraph is taking it too far (it's basically just baiting him/others [particularly with choice of wording]). Please stop.

[70sFan]

Clippers playing at over +4 without Paul isn't a proof of weak supporting casts. People often compare Paul to Oscar and Royals without Big O collapsed. There is a clear difference between teammates they played with.

Paul is definitely worthy of top 20 talks, he's an incredible player and I don't buy idea that he's not good enough to lead his team to a title, but let's not go too far - he has his limitations and ranking him in top 10 ever is a bit too much. I'd definitely take him over someone like Durant, but he's not on KG level (both contemporaries).

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

[iggymcfrack]

Clippers playing at over +4 without Paul isn't a proof of weak supporting casts. People often compare Paul to Oscar and Royals without Big O collapsed. There is a clear difference between teammates they played with.

Paul is definitely worthy of top 20 talks, he's an incredible player and I don't buy idea that he's not good enough to lead his team to a title, but let's not go too far - he has his limitations and ranking him in top 10 ever is a bit too much. I'd definitely take him over someone like Durant, but he's not on KG level (both contemporaries).

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

Dirk’s interesting. He has a better single season peak (2011) and more time in the league, but if you were to look at like their second best through 10th best seasons, I feel like Paul has a pretty big edge. Kobe’s like Dirk, but without that one great single season. Kawhi’s honestly the only one I can see catching him just because if you were to ask “who do you trust more for a single postseason to try to win you a ring?”, I would trust him quite a bit more than the rest, but if you were to try to assign a number for the value of each season and add them up, he probably would have a ways to go yet.

[HeartBreakKid]

Health is obviously the big thing. I also wonder how valuable his defense truly is. But I want to focus on his offensive play style here.

He’s been overly conservative in his career. He is a mid range maestro, the dribble dribble dribble FT line jumper of his is a signature play from this era. Just turns bigs into dust on switches and drills the heaviest swishes from 15ft. But he never attacked the rim to a great degree and his assists weren’t in as high leverage areas as some other great primary ball handlers.

He reminds me of an NFL QB who throws for 28 TD and 6 INTs. Awesome efficiency but if he tried for more high leverage plays, a 36 TD and 10 INT season would arguably/probably imo make him into a scarier player who the defenses have to worry about.

Awesome player and in my Top 30 somewhere, but I do think he’s a hair overrated on here although I understand why.

You're thinking of the version of him that was past his athletic prime. Watch some games/highlights from his earlier years when he was athletic. He was relentless.

Oh I know he was athletic as hell for his size. I think I remember him dunking on Howard around ‘08. He was impressive.

But he never attacked the rim consistently, he’d settle for those short jumpers because he was so money there. Despite having some great finishers around the rim for his career, his % of At Rim assists is also nothing special.

His ratio of Good:Bad plays on both ends of the court is incredible. Just special honestly. But I do think he lacked the ability to threaten the D with the “Great/Game-breaking” play that so many of the other Top 20 candidates could provide.

You're saying he's overconservative but he takes a ton of mid range shots. That doesn't really add up, because mid range shots are much more risky shots than 3 pointers or at the rim shots. The shots CP3 takes are more difficult than what nearly every player in the league takes. This is almost like saying Dirk has to attack the rim more.

[dygaction]

Clippers playing at over +4 without Paul isn't a proof of weak supporting casts. People often compare Paul to Oscar and Royals without Big O collapsed. There is a clear difference between teammates they played with.

Paul is definitely worthy of top 20 talks, he's an incredible player and I don't buy idea that he's not good enough to lead his team to a title, but let's not go too far - he has his limitations and ranking him in top 10 ever is a bit too much. I'd definitely take him over someone like Durant, but he's not on KG level (both contemporaries).

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

I am not sure what CP3 has for Curry or KD to catch. For Curry, he was the reason for GS's to be the team of the decade with 73 wins, 3 championships, and 5 trips to the finals. LeBron/Wade/Bosh at their peak were not able to achieve so. Player wise, he won two MVPs and one of them was the only unanimous in league history. Curry completely changed how the game is perceived and played. I cannot imagine putting CP3 at Curry's position GS could be this good. He was the scoring champion as a PG with 50/45/90. Those five years are more than enough to offset CP3's entire career. You know he was cruising during 18/19 regular seasons as he had the luxury of having a super team. 10 or 20 years from now, Curry will be remembered as a revolutionary player anchored a dynasty but CP3 would most likely be mentioned with Stockton and Kidd as one of those great PGs who did not win during their primes. The argument for CP3 over Curry is weak, and it is not going to age well.

[70sFan]

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

Dirk’s interesting. He has a better single season peak (2011) and more time in the league, but if you were to look at like their second best through 10th best seasons, I feel like Paul has a pretty big edge. Kobe’s like Dirk, but without that one great single season. Kawhi’s honestly the only one I can see catching him just because if you were to ask “who do you trust more for a single postseason to try to win you a ring?”, I would trust him quite a bit more than the rest, but if you were to try to assign a number for the value of each season and add them up, he probably would have a ways to go yet.

Well, I don't think we agree again. Dirk had many comparable seasons and whole 2006-11 period is on the same level to me. Especially after 2008, he was a monster in playoffs. I also disagree that Kobe had worse prime years, 2008-10 is on really high level. Both also have longevity advantage.

There is nothing that suggest Kawhi is easier to build around than Kobe and Dirk. He's not durable, so you need strong supporting cast in RS and his 2019 playoffs run isn't really better than the best of Kobe and Dirk.

[70sFan]

I would agree that he’s a tier behind KG. For me, it’s more like:

Tier I: LeBron, MJ
Tier II: Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, KG, Hakeem, Robinson
Tier III: Paul, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Curry, Wade, Dirk, Kawhi

Since you obviously tend to rank the older players higher than I do, Im curious where you think CP3 sits within his era. Would you agree with him slightly ahead of Curry, Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi as the top player that’s been active within the last year?

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

I am not sure what CP3 has for Curry or KD to catch. For Curry, he was the reason for GS's to be the team of the decade with 73 wins, 3 championships, and 5 trips to the finals. LeBron/Wade/Bosh at their peak were not able to achieve so. Player wise, he won two MVPs and one of them was the only unanimous in league history. Curry completely changed how the game is perceived and played. I cannot imagine putting CP3 at Curry's position GS could be this good. He was the scoring champion as a PG with 50/45/90. Those five years are more than enough to offset CP3's entire career. You know he was cruising during 18/19 regular seasons as he had the luxury of having a super team. 10 or 20 years from now, Curry will be remembered as a revolutionary player anchored a dynasty but CP3 would most likely be mentioned with Stockton and Kidd as one of those great PGs who did not win during their primes. The argument for CP3 over Curry is weak, and it is not going to age well.

I can have different criteria than citing rings and MVPs. 50/40/90 doesn't mean anything either.

[iggymcfrack]

I would have him over Wade because at this point, his longevity is clearly better. I would likely have him over Curry too for the same reason. Kawhi is not close yet and you know that. I have Dirk higher than Paul.

Among players from 2000s, I have James, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe and Dirk over CP3. I'm still unsure about Nash vs Paul, but defensive edge is probably too big. Of course KD and Curry can catch him - but I'm not sure KD will.

7th player in last 20 years won't be in top 10. NBA has too long history for that. Sure, you can argue that Dirk and Kobe should be below him, but then you can also argue that Wade and Curry (and maybe KD) should be higher.

Dirk’s interesting. He has a better single season peak (2011) and more time in the league, but if you were to look at like their second best through 10th best seasons, I feel like Paul has a pretty big edge. Kobe’s like Dirk, but without that one great single season. Kawhi’s honestly the only one I can see catching him just because if you were to ask “who do you trust more for a single postseason to try to win you a ring?”, I would trust him quite a bit more than the rest, but if you were to try to assign a number for the value of each season and add them up, he probably would have a ways to go yet.

Well, I don't think we agree again. Dirk had many comparable seasons and whole 2006-11 period is on the same level to me. Especially after 2008, he was a monster in playoffs. I also disagree that Kobe had worse prime years, 2008-10 is on really high level. Both also have longevity advantage.

There is nothing that suggest Kawhi is easier to build around than Kobe and Dirk. He's not durable, so you need strong supporting cast in RS and his 2019 playoffs run isn't really better than the best of Kobe and Dirk.

Yeah, 2006 is another incredible year. That series against the Spurs is an all-timer and the Mavs really should have have won the title that season. That’s probably as good an any Chris Paul season. 2007 he had that terrible series against Golden State though and I don’t think he was on the same level from 2008-2010. Ranked 7th, 13th, and 18th in RAPM. Paul was consistently a top 5 player for almost a decade.